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Draft Thread Part 2

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Re: Draft Thread Part 2 

Post#1281 » by Dalek » Wed May 5, 2021 8:09 pm

Spates wrote:
Indeed wrote:
Spates wrote:
Do you have any thoughts on Davion? I can't help but think of him as a smaller Marcus Smart, and at his size maybe Pat Bev.

I'm not sure why Jared Butler isn't considered the better prospect out of the Baylor backcourt.


Elite quickness / first step with strong frame.

He needs advance ball handling, and will need to improve his vision and passing (dishing and kickout), but the quickness plus size may allow him to go where he wants if his shooting is real.


Does he project as a lead guard? Sounds like he leans towards being a project that may be immediately serviceable as a secondary creator playing off an elite creator. I see the appeal.

I'm just fascinated with Butler. His shooting ability unlocks so much to compensate for his lack of burst and size. He doesn't look like he's reliant on athleticism to get buckets, all I'm seeing is skill and craft. Movement and stationary shooting, off-dribble shooting, strong pnr game, he makes great reads. Butler is multifaceted and offers great versatility. And unless his athleticism doesn't project as NBA level I can't see him failing. I might be so very wrong about him but he just looks like a stud.


I think Butler's attributes are very similar to Flynn's. Both of them have great handles and shoot it well but are not guys you are going to see as elite athletes. I would have had Butler ahead of Flynn last year if he came out, but I didn't really see any growth from year 2 to 3 from Butler. A guy like Mitchell is more athletic and an elite POA defender. He would compliment any of our guards well because of defense and shot creation and speed in getting to the rim. To me, he looks like a starting guard especially with a team like Toronto that plays that way.
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Re: Draft Thread Part 2 

Post#1282 » by Badonkadonk » Wed May 5, 2021 8:21 pm

Morse Code wrote:
Badonkadonk wrote:
vanhill wrote:i second that. even his video highlight is not impressive. oh well..

Nah, Barnes has been playing since he was tiny, went to Montverde (actually averaged close to 5 assists and was more of a playmaker), played in global U17 tournies etc.

Basically he's been hooping all his life and there is a smoothness to his game that is missing from guys who started late. I don't see the Pascal comparison.

I actually think his capacity for growth on the offensive end is large, and see him at least on par with Kuminga. Unfortunately, I think he'll be gone by the 8th pick, but I'm all-in on Barnes.

So why can’t he score at all then? Can’t shoot 3’s, mid range, floaters, can barely hit standing layups. Don’t get me started on his post hooks smh. Remember how Philly “guarded” Pascal in the playoffs? Picture that, but with absolutely zero hope he’ll be able to hit a shot. He’s Ben Simmons with less explosiveness, less handle, the same shooting, and even less touch around the rim. He’s going to be a problem for whatever team drafts him unless they are packed full of scoring threats.

It's inaccurate to say he "can't score at all", not sure how much Florida State you watched but they have 3 primary scorers all within 2 ppg of each other to lead the team, and Barnes took the fewest attempts per game. The 'Noles didn't have an 'alpha'.

It IS fair to critique how he scores, because he definitely has strengths and weaknesses. He is an elite downhill scorer, like a PF version of Norm. He excels off of open PnR lanes. He's unstoppable in the open court in college. He also finishes through contact strongly and with a high release, and projects as somebody who can force defenders into fouling. His % from near range, and his ability to get there, is elite.

Check out the 2 min stretch at 3:24 for reference:



He's lacking in the midrange, hasn't developed a pull-up game and needs to hit his 3 more often, but the tools are there, especially given his roots as a playmaker first (i.e. Montverde).

On that note, he's a legit Point Forward option. Check out 5:38 of the same video for his playmaking summary.

I'm bummed to see him moving up most draft boards, as I was hoping he'd be available late lotto. I think he's a steal at 10 and am hoping he's still available at 8.

edit - obviously he defense is what has him solidly in the mid-lotto, he's going to be an elite wing defender; his O ceiling will determine whether he can develop into a true star, but he has a really high floor.
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Re: Draft Thread Part 2 

Post#1283 » by Dalek » Wed May 5, 2021 8:25 pm

StringerBell wrote:
Dalek wrote:
Morse Code wrote:If Masai and co believe in Jalen Johnson’s character, I’d love to pick him depending on where our pick falls. A lot will rest on whether he truly gives up on his teams or if there are other reasons why he has this history of leaving teams. Skill wise I think he would be a great fit.


Johnson switched to three different highschools and quit on Duke. Something is up with this guy when Coach K says the following:

As soon as Jalen Johnson chucked a pass some 10 feet off target late in the Bellarmine game, Mike Krzyzewski said to his staff what looked to be a harsh four-word description for the frustrating uber-athlete, including one particularly harsh four-letter word. It doesn’t take a lip-reading expert to decipher from the telecast what the 41st-year Duke chief appeared to note to his crew:

“He’s so [expletive] soft.”

https://balldurham.com/2020/12/08/duke-basketball-mind-games-jalen-johnson/4/


Ooof. No athlete wants to hear that from their coach. Yikes.


Jalen is hard to get a read on, but there are red flags. I mean Zion and Kyrie stuck it out, same with Tatum. All of them had injuries but still finished their Duke year.

Johnson just didn't have the most impactful time on court where he averaged only 11 and 6, but what stuck out was that I just didn't see a great jumper (he hit 8 threes on a small number of tries, but his freethrows were below average and he never showed a go to jumpshot.) His size and athleticism remind me of Aaron Gordon - which to me is the greatest of NBA teases. He looks like he should be a star player, but falls short due to his mental make-up.

I just don't have a read on him, but I kind of hope someone else above Toronto takes him (hello Kings!) and we can watch how his career goes from a far.
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Re: Draft Thread Part 2 

Post#1284 » by Indeed » Wed May 5, 2021 8:33 pm

Dalek wrote:
Spates wrote:
Indeed wrote:
Elite quickness / first step with strong frame.

He needs advance ball handling, and will need to improve his vision and passing (dishing and kickout), but the quickness plus size may allow him to go where he wants if his shooting is real.


Does he project as a lead guard? Sounds like he leans towards being a project that may be immediately serviceable as a secondary creator playing off an elite creator. I see the appeal.

I'm just fascinated with Butler. His shooting ability unlocks so much to compensate for his lack of burst and size. He doesn't look like he's reliant on athleticism to get buckets, all I'm seeing is skill and craft. Movement and stationary shooting, off-dribble shooting, strong pnr game, he makes great reads. Butler is multifaceted and offers great versatility. And unless his athleticism doesn't project as NBA level I can't see him failing. I might be so very wrong about him but he just looks like a stud.


I think Butler's attributes are very similar to Flynn's. Both of them have great handles and shoot it well but are not guys you are going to see as elite athletes. I would have had Butler ahead of Flynn last year if he came out, but I didn't really see any growth from year 2 to 3 from Butler. A guy like Mitchell is more athletic and an elite POA defender. He would compliment any of our guards well because of defense and shot creation and speed in getting to the rim. To me, he looks like a starting guard especially with a team like Toronto that plays that way.


First Mitchell:
Some suggested he can be the lead guard in NBA. I personally think that it depends if his shot is real and being a passer on the drive (kickout / dishing), that may have to wait for workout and decided by the coaching staff. If his pull up 3 can sustain and be consistent, along with his free throw, that his elite quickness should beat defenders off the dribble, particularly on a switch. And workout should allow us to understand if he can dish to the big or kick it out (Baylor does not seem to have a PnR big to catch the ball this year).

Reference on he can be a lead guard:
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nba-draft-big-board-2021-davion-mitchell-johnny-juzang-among-big-risers-during-the-ncaa-tournament/

Second Butler vs Flynn:
Flynn relies on drawing free throw to have his TS% up. His eFG% is not as good as Butler.
Ref:
http://www.tankathon.com/players/jared-butler
http://www.tankathon.com/players/malachi-flynn

As I do not believe FTA Rate translate to the NBA (particularly being a Raptors, you don't get those calls), so it seems Butler is the better finisher. He is also listed higher (Butler as 6'3 vs 6'0 in Flynn who is shorter than VanVleet), so I think Butler is the better prospect (higher ceiling). But before the tournament, Butler was not rated this high, so you wonder if he will drop back to the high 2nd round with teams prefer to draft a wing or forward (eg. Juzang, Herbert Jones, etc.)
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Re: Draft Thread Part 2 

Post#1285 » by Psubs » Wed May 5, 2021 8:47 pm

mdenny wrote:
DAcReator wrote:

More of his shooting stoke. Thing of beauty



Is it just me or does his release point look a little late? Like he's releasing the ball on the way down instead of at the peak of the jump?


I think he just has different release points depending on the defender!
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Re: Draft Thread Part 2 

Post#1286 » by DG88 » Wed May 5, 2021 8:55 pm

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Re: Draft Thread Part 2 

Post#1287 » by Spates » Wed May 5, 2021 9:02 pm

Indeed wrote:
Dalek wrote:
Spates wrote:
Does he project as a lead guard? Sounds like he leans towards being a project that may be immediately serviceable as a secondary creator playing off an elite creator. I see the appeal.

I'm just fascinated with Butler. His shooting ability unlocks so much to compensate for his lack of burst and size. He doesn't look like he's reliant on athleticism to get buckets, all I'm seeing is skill and craft. Movement and stationary shooting, off-dribble shooting, strong pnr game, he makes great reads. Butler is multifaceted and offers great versatility. And unless his athleticism doesn't project as NBA level I can't see him failing. I might be so very wrong about him but he just looks like a stud.


I think Butler's attributes are very similar to Flynn's. Both of them have great handles and shoot it well but are not guys you are going to see as elite athletes. I would have had Butler ahead of Flynn last year if he came out, but I didn't really see any growth from year 2 to 3 from Butler. A guy like Mitchell is more athletic and an elite POA defender. He would compliment any of our guards well because of defense and shot creation and speed in getting to the rim. To me, he looks like a starting guard especially with a team like Toronto that plays that way.


First Mitchell:
Some suggested he can be the lead guard in NBA. I personally think that it depends if his shot is real and being a passer on the drive (kickout / dishing), that may have to wait for workout and decided by the coaching staff. If his pull up 3 can sustain and be consistent, along with his free throw, that his elite quickness should beat defenders off the dribble, particularly on a switch. And workout should allow us to understand if he can dish to the big or kick it out (Baylor does not seem to have a PnR big to catch the ball this year).

Reference on he can be a lead guard:
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nba-draft-big-board-2021-davion-mitchell-johnny-juzang-among-big-risers-during-the-ncaa-tournament/

Second Butler vs Flynn:
Flynn relies on drawing free throw to have his TS% up. His eFG% is not as good as Butler.
Ref:
http://www.tankathon.com/players/jared-butler
http://www.tankathon.com/players/malachi-flynn

As I do not believe FTA Rate translate to the NBA (particularly being a Raptors, you don't get those calls), so it seems Butler is the better finisher. He is also listed higher (Butler as 6'3 vs 6'0 in Flynn who is shorter than VanVleet), so I think Butler is the better prospect (higher ceiling). But before the tournament, Butler was not rated this high, so you wonder if he will drop back to the high 2nd round with teams prefer to draft a wing or forward (eg. Juzang, Herbert Jones, etc.)


I just came across this: https://www.draftdeeper.com/2021-nba-draft-profile-jared-butler

This is from the article "Butler is more than content with letting Mitchell bring the ball up the floor, initiate offense and finish plays off. They’ve formed one of the most dynamic backcourts in the country and compliment each other incredibly well. Mitchell’s game is more about speed and explosiveness while Butler’s is all about timing, understanding of angles and situational shot making. But neither of them step on each other’s toes, and that’s a credit to the threat Butler poses off the ball."

I've watched Lowry for the past 8 years. His guile and craft made him an impact player. I'm not sold on raw athleticism as something that necessarily ups a players ceiling. Sure, its tantalizing but its only as impactful as the skills and intuition it coincides with.

The raptors need an infusion of high IQ ballers. Not that Mitchell isn't one but Butler is making advanced plays that look like they project to the next level.
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Re: Draft Thread Part 2 

Post#1288 » by Dalek » Wed May 5, 2021 9:59 pm

Indeed wrote:
Dalek wrote:
Spates wrote:
Does he project as a lead guard? Sounds like he leans towards being a project that may be immediately serviceable as a secondary creator playing off an elite creator. I see the appeal.

I'm just fascinated with Butler. His shooting ability unlocks so much to compensate for his lack of burst and size. He doesn't look like he's reliant on athleticism to get buckets, all I'm seeing is skill and craft. Movement and stationary shooting, off-dribble shooting, strong pnr game, he makes great reads. Butler is multifaceted and offers great versatility. And unless his athleticism doesn't project as NBA level I can't see him failing. I might be so very wrong about him but he just looks like a stud.


I think Butler's attributes are very similar to Flynn's. Both of them have great handles and shoot it well but are not guys you are going to see as elite athletes. I would have had Butler ahead of Flynn last year if he came out, but I didn't really see any growth from year 2 to 3 from Butler. A guy like Mitchell is more athletic and an elite POA defender. He would compliment any of our guards well because of defense and shot creation and speed in getting to the rim. To me, he looks like a starting guard especially with a team like Toronto that plays that way.


First Mitchell:
Some suggested he can be the lead guard in NBA. I personally think that it depends if his shot is real and being a passer on the drive (kickout / dishing), that may have to wait for workout and decided by the coaching staff. If his pull up 3 can sustain and be consistent, along with his free throw, that his elite quickness should beat defenders off the dribble, particularly on a switch. And workout should allow us to understand if he can dish to the big or kick it out (Baylor does not seem to have a PnR big to catch the ball this year).

Reference on he can be a lead guard:
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nba-draft-big-board-2021-davion-mitchell-johnny-juzang-among-big-risers-during-the-ncaa-tournament/

Second Butler vs Flynn:
Flynn relies on drawing free throw to have his TS% up. His eFG% is not as good as Butler.
Ref:
http://www.tankathon.com/players/jared-butler
http://www.tankathon.com/players/malachi-flynn

As I do not believe FTA Rate translate to the NBA (particularly being a Raptors, you don't get those calls), so it seems Butler is the better finisher. He is also listed higher (Butler as 6'3 vs 6'0 in Flynn who is shorter than VanVleet), so I think Butler is the better prospect (higher ceiling). But before the tournament, Butler was not rated this high, so you wonder if he will drop back to the high 2nd round with teams prefer to draft a wing or forward (eg. Juzang, Herbert Jones, etc.)


Good stuff to think about. I think my only point about Butler versus Mitchell was fit. Is Butler too similar to Flynn and FVV? I have always thought Toronto could use more speed and generate freethrows. We just replaced our second best scorer (Norm) with another jumpshooter in Trent. It's why I fixate on guys like Mitchell which adds a speed component which is lacking. Mitchell is going to have a similar height and wingspan to Butler, but I will dig more into Butler to see why people don't see him higher in the first round.
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Re: Draft Thread Part 2 

Post#1289 » by Morse Code » Wed May 5, 2021 10:31 pm

Badonkadonk wrote:
Morse Code wrote:
Badonkadonk wrote:Nah, Barnes has been playing since he was tiny, went to Montverde (actually averaged close to 5 assists and was more of a playmaker), played in global U17 tournies etc.

Basically he's been hooping all his life and there is a smoothness to his game that is missing from guys who started late. I don't see the Pascal comparison.

I actually think his capacity for growth on the offensive end is large, and see him at least on par with Kuminga. Unfortunately, I think he'll be gone by the 8th pick, but I'm all-in on Barnes.

So why can’t he score at all then? Can’t shoot 3’s, mid range, floaters, can barely hit standing layups. Don’t get me started on his post hooks smh. Remember how Philly “guarded” Pascal in the playoffs? Picture that, but with absolutely zero hope he’ll be able to hit a shot. He’s Ben Simmons with less explosiveness, less handle, the same shooting, and even less touch around the rim. He’s going to be a problem for whatever team drafts him unless they are packed full of scoring threats.

It's inaccurate to say he "can't score at all", not sure how much Florida State you watched but they have 3 primary scorers all within 2 ppg of each other to lead the team, and Barnes took the fewest attempts per game. The 'Noles didn't have an 'alpha'.

It IS fair to critique how he scores, because he definitely has strengths and weaknesses. He is an elite downhill scorer, like a PF version of Norm. He excels off of open PnR lanes. He's unstoppable in the open court in college. He also finishes through contact strongly and with a high release, and projects as somebody who can force defenders into fouling. His % from near range, and his ability to get there, is elite.

Check out the 2 min stretch at 3:24 for reference:



He's lacking in the midrange, hasn't developed a pull-up game and needs to hit his 3 more often, but the tools are there, especially given his roots as a playmaker first (i.e. Montverde).

On that note, he's a legit Point Forward option. Check out 5:38 of the same video for his playmaking summary.

I'm bummed to see him moving up most draft boards, as I was hoping he'd be available late lotto. I think he's a steal at 10 and am hoping he's still available at 8.

edit - obviously he defense is what has him solidly in the mid-lotto, he's going to be an elite wing defender; his O ceiling will determine whether he can develop into a true star, but he has a really high floor.

I actually don’t disagree with any of that, other than the hope for his perimeter game to evolve. He can certainly pull down a board, go coast to coast and finish through contact or throw a nice kick out or dump off pass to the big. I don’t question the skills he currently has, because he is elite at the things he does. My issue is that I can see him being completely nullified in the playoffs. Even Pascal was as least crafty with his push shots and spin layups and stuff like that, but to be honest we would’ve been better off with a Chris Boucher type of PF in that series, who is a threat outside. That doesn’t mean I think Boucher is a better player because he’s not, but the skill set of these half-way point forward types that can’t shoot is not useful at all in the playoffs. I think he’s going to be a huge liability.
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Re: Draft Thread Part 2 

Post#1290 » by Indeed » Wed May 5, 2021 10:47 pm

Spates wrote:
Indeed wrote:
Dalek wrote:
I think Butler's attributes are very similar to Flynn's. Both of them have great handles and shoot it well but are not guys you are going to see as elite athletes. I would have had Butler ahead of Flynn last year if he came out, but I didn't really see any growth from year 2 to 3 from Butler. A guy like Mitchell is more athletic and an elite POA defender. He would compliment any of our guards well because of defense and shot creation and speed in getting to the rim. To me, he looks like a starting guard especially with a team like Toronto that plays that way.


First Mitchell:
Some suggested he can be the lead guard in NBA. I personally think that it depends if his shot is real and being a passer on the drive (kickout / dishing), that may have to wait for workout and decided by the coaching staff. If his pull up 3 can sustain and be consistent, along with his free throw, that his elite quickness should beat defenders off the dribble, particularly on a switch. And workout should allow us to understand if he can dish to the big or kick it out (Baylor does not seem to have a PnR big to catch the ball this year).

Reference on he can be a lead guard:
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nba-draft-big-board-2021-davion-mitchell-johnny-juzang-among-big-risers-during-the-ncaa-tournament/

Second Butler vs Flynn:
Flynn relies on drawing free throw to have his TS% up. His eFG% is not as good as Butler.
Ref:
http://www.tankathon.com/players/jared-butler
http://www.tankathon.com/players/malachi-flynn

As I do not believe FTA Rate translate to the NBA (particularly being a Raptors, you don't get those calls), so it seems Butler is the better finisher. He is also listed higher (Butler as 6'3 vs 6'0 in Flynn who is shorter than VanVleet), so I think Butler is the better prospect (higher ceiling). But before the tournament, Butler was not rated this high, so you wonder if he will drop back to the high 2nd round with teams prefer to draft a wing or forward (eg. Juzang, Herbert Jones, etc.)


I just came across this: https://www.draftdeeper.com/2021-nba-draft-profile-jared-butler

This is from the article "Butler is more than content with letting Mitchell bring the ball up the floor, initiate offense and finish plays off. They’ve formed one of the most dynamic backcourts in the country and compliment each other incredibly well. Mitchell’s game is more about speed and explosiveness while Butler’s is all about timing, understanding of angles and situational shot making. But neither of them step on each other’s toes, and that’s a credit to the threat Butler poses off the ball."

I've watched Lowry for the past 8 years. His guile and craft made him an impact player. I'm not sold on raw athleticism as something that necessarily ups a players ceiling. Sure, its tantalizing but its only as impactful as the skills and intuition it coincides with.

The raptors need an infusion of high IQ ballers. Not that Mitchell isn't one but Butler is making advanced plays that look like they project to the next level.


Yes, I am not sold on raw athleticism as well, but his elite quickness is proven to be a capable ISO creator (plus willing passer), which is a different story, and seem to be transferable to the big league (again, depends on his shooting):
https://what-to-consume.com/2021/04/08/nba-dradt-2021-davion-mitchell-scout-report/

I feel VanVleet is similar to Butler (clutch shooter):
https://what-to-consume.com/2021/04/12/nba-draft-2021-jared-butler-scout-report/

Dalek wrote:Good stuff to think about. I think my only point about Butler versus Mitchell was fit. Is Butler too similar to Flynn and FVV? I have always thought Toronto could use more speed and generate freethrows. We just replaced our second best scorer (Norm) with another jumpshooter in Trent. It's why I fixate on guys like Mitchell which adds a speed component which is lacking. Mitchell is going to have a similar height and wingspan to Butler, but I will dig more into Butler to see why people don't see him higher in the first round.


Indeed, and more than speed, it is the result of his speed translate into an ISO creator that I am interested in, as he can bailout shots afterall. We saw he setup plays for Bulter first, where we can put the same situation for Siakam who demands the ball more (and OG for his points). He does not mind being the aftermath creator (same as VanVleet).

More importantly, his strength is to attack closeout, which is identical to our offensive system (drive, pass, shoot). Any of them created opening for others, the person may pass for the better shot. Mitchell will excel in this situation created by someone (or himself - depends on his passing, high TO yikes). His style is similar to some of Lowry on the offense (while pretty much the same on defense, taking charges), so I think he is the better fit compare to Butler.

Meanwhile, as I mentioned, I have Kai Jones and Barnes ahead of taking any guards, so I am just giving what I understand from the scouting report, but may not prefer them ahead of other forwards.
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Re: Draft Thread Part 2 

Post#1291 » by Blood Orange » Wed May 5, 2021 11:07 pm

Although I'm quite certain we won't draft another point guard with our lottery pick, theres an outside chance that we do select a combo guard.

I don't think anyone's mentioned him yet but another Tennessee player I like is Jaden Springer. He's an 18 year old 6'4 very athletic big guard that plays very physical kinda of like the point guards in the 90s, imo. He's really good at absorbing contact and drawing fouls when finishing at the rim and loves to bully smaller guards/players in the post when he knows he has a mismatch. He's also pretty adept at alternating and adjusting his shot in mid-air when head to head with defenders. He also has a very effective pump fake that he uses off the catch and shoot, which allows him to either penetrate or gives him space to make a simple pull up jumper. I'm a fan of his game, cause theres some parts of his it that remind me Lowry though I'd still prefer we select his backcourt teammate Keon Johnson with our lottery pick.


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Re: Draft Thread Part 2 

Post#1292 » by Dalek » Thu May 6, 2021 12:09 am

JuelzSantana wrote:Although I'm quite certain we won't draft another point guard with our lottery pick, theres an outside chance that we do select a combo guard.

I don't think anyone's mentioned him yet but another Tennessee player I like is Jaden Springer. He's an 18 year old 6'4 very athletic big guard that plays very physical kinda of like the point guards in the 90s, imo. He's really good at absorbing contact and drawing fouls when finishing at the rim and loves to bully smaller guards/players in the post when he knows he has a mismatch. He's also pretty adept at alternating and adjusting his shot in mid-air when head to head with defenders. He also has a very effective pump fake that he uses off the catch and shoot, which allows him to either penetrate or gives him space to make a simple pull up jumper. I'm a fan of his game, cause theres some parts of his it that remind me Lowry though I'd still prefer we select his backcourt teammate Keon Johnson with our lottery pick.




I have been digging into these guards lately and the guy I can't get a handle on is Springer. I like that 90s comp as I agree he is more of a power guard kind of below the rim guy who knows how to use his body - kind of Chauncey Billups-like the way he uses angles and moves.

Springer also drew more fouls than Jalen Suggs and shot the ball better from three although he took a low number. His defense is also pretty strong.

I guess I just don't like his speed. In some ways he reminds of why I was not the biggest Maledon fan. He also has all of the similar size and skill attributes as Springer but both lack that top level burst.
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Re: Draft Thread Part 2 

Post#1293 » by Blood Orange » Thu May 6, 2021 12:50 am

Dalek wrote:
JuelzSantana wrote:Although I'm quite certain we won't draft another point guard with our lottery pick, theres an outside chance that we do select a combo guard.

I don't think anyone's mentioned him yet but another Tennessee player I like is Jaden Springer. He's an 18 year old 6'4 very athletic big guard that plays very physical kinda of like the point guards in the 90s, imo. He's really good at absorbing contact and drawing fouls when finishing at the rim and loves to bully smaller guards/players in the post when he knows he has a mismatch. He's also pretty adept at alternating and adjusting his shot in mid-air when head to head with defenders. He also has a very effective pump fake that he uses off the catch and shoot, which allows him to either penetrate or gives him space to make a simple pull up jumper. I'm a fan of his game, cause theres some parts of his it that remind me Lowry though I'd still prefer we select his backcourt teammate Keon Johnson with our lottery pick.




I have been digging into these guards lately and the guy I can't get a handle on is Springer. I like that 90s comp as I agree he is more of a power guard kind of below the rim guy who knows how to use his body - kind of Chauncey Billups-like the way he uses angles and moves.

Springer also drew more fouls than Jalen Suggs and shot the ball better from three although he took a low number. His defense is also pretty strong.

I guess I just don't like his speed. In some ways he reminds of why I was not the biggest Maledon fan. He also has all of the similar size and skill attributes as Springer but both lack that top level burst.


Yea, i'm not a fan of his speed either but in some ways I suppose it can be a good thing that he plays at a more controlled pace that he's comfortable with. He's got more of a inside to outside approach to the game and plays the angles extremely well, just like you said. I was having trouble finding a comp for him as well, and the Chauncey Billups one isn't bad but I think there's certain aspects of his game that remind me Joe Dumars.
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Re: Draft Thread Part 2 

Post#1294 » by BoyzNTheHood » Thu May 6, 2021 12:58 am

JuelzSantana wrote:Although I'm quite certain we won't draft another point guard with our lottery pick, theres an outside chance that we do select a combo guard.

I don't think anyone's mentioned him yet but another Tennessee player I like is Jaden Springer. He's an 18 year old 6'4 very athletic big guard that plays very physical kinda of like the point guards in the 90s, imo. He's really good at absorbing contact and drawing fouls when finishing at the rim and loves to bully smaller guards/players in the post when he knows he has a mismatch. He's also pretty adept at alternating and adjusting his shot in mid-air when head to head with defenders. He also has a very effective pump fake that he uses off the catch and shoot, which allows him to either penetrate or gives him space to make a simple pull up jumper. I'm a fan of his game, cause theres some parts of his it that remind me Lowry though I'd still prefer we select his backcourt teammate Keon Johnson with our lottery pick.




We've talked about Springer at length in the last draft thread, and somewhat in this one too. He's probably the safer pick between himself and Keon Johnson, although Johnson would have the higher ceiling. I'd personally compare Jaden to a guy like Jrue Holiday, if he were to reach full potential. As solid as a rock, will absolutely be a championship piece, but won't wow you with any insane athletic feat.
deeps6x wrote:I guarantee you that (Jaylen) Brown and (Kris) Dunn are drafted OUT of the top 5.
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Re: Draft Thread Part 2 

Post#1295 » by CoinTossRoss31 » Thu May 6, 2021 1:08 am

Currently a fan of Keon Johnson with our pick.. can a Moody fan try to sway my opinion?
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Re: Draft Thread Part 2 

Post#1296 » by Blood Orange » Thu May 6, 2021 1:26 am

BoyzNTheHood wrote:
JuelzSantana wrote:Although I'm quite certain we won't draft another point guard with our lottery pick, theres an outside chance that we do select a combo guard.

I don't think anyone's mentioned him yet but another Tennessee player I like is Jaden Springer. He's an 18 year old 6'4 very athletic big guard that plays very physical kinda of like the point guards in the 90s, imo. He's really good at absorbing contact and drawing fouls when finishing at the rim and loves to bully smaller guards/players in the post when he knows he has a mismatch. He's also pretty adept at alternating and adjusting his shot in mid-air when head to head with defenders. He also has a very effective pump fake that he uses off the catch and shoot, which allows him to either penetrate or gives him space to make a simple pull up jumper. I'm a fan of his game, cause theres some parts of his it that remind me Lowry though I'd still prefer we select his backcourt teammate Keon Johnson with our lottery pick.




We've talked about Springer at length in the last draft thread, and somewhat in this one too. He's probably the safer pick between himself and Keon Johnson, although Johnson would have the higher ceiling. I'd personally compare Jaden to a guy like Jrue Holiday, if he were to reach full potential. As solid as a rock, will absolutely be a championship piece, but won't wow you with any insane athletic feat.


Yea, I definitely agree that he's the safer pick over Keon Johnson and also see him more as a complimentary piece to a championship squad. I like the Jrue Holiday comparison, as i'm watching the Bucks game right now and do see many playing similarities between the two.
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Re: Draft Thread Part 2 

Post#1297 » by Dalek » Thu May 6, 2021 1:43 am

Great video digging into Davion Mitchell:


The first few minutes just show his elite defense which is really what pops on film. I don't think there is another prospect like him, other than maybe Deuce McBride. Add in the OTD shooting, blow-by speed and being able to rise to the occasion, I just don't see why this guy can't be worthy of a lottery pick. Just watch how he works on Cade Cunningham.

The video does show his passing ability showing some nice skill but he does have areas for improvement (at the rim finishing/floater). If the way to Nurse's heart is to defend, this guy will be a starter day one. FVV and Mitchell will be tough to score against.
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Re: Draft Thread Part 2 

Post#1298 » by StringerBell » Thu May 6, 2021 1:52 am

Dalek wrote:
StringerBell wrote:
Dalek wrote:
Johnson switched to three different highschools and quit on Duke. Something is up with this guy when Coach K says the following:


https://balldurham.com/2020/12/08/duke-basketball-mind-games-jalen-johnson/4/


Ooof. No athlete wants to hear that from their coach. Yikes.


Jalen is hard to get a read on, but there are red flags. I mean Zion and Kyrie stuck it out, same with Tatum. All of them had injuries but still finished their Duke year.

Johnson just didn't have the most impactful time on court where he averaged only 11 and 6, but what stuck out was that I just didn't see a great jumper (he hit 8 threes on a small number of tries, but his freethrows were below average and he never showed a go to jumpshot.) His size and athleticism remind me of Aaron Gordon - which to me is the greatest of NBA teases. He looks like he should be a star player, but falls short due to his mental make-up.

I just don't have a read on him, but I kind of hope someone else above Toronto takes him (hello Kings!) and we can watch how his career goes from a far.


I'm with you. Don't have great read on him either and there isn't much footage of him out there. But but given everything we know I'd rather they pass given his mental makeup. Not only does it effect how he plays on the court but also determines how much work he's willing to put into getting better and improve(in this case his 3 pt shot).

I like the Aaron Gordon comp and to take it a step further - compare Gordon's improvement vs OG's. OG's improved his 3 pt shot, ftr, ft% and his handle; Gordon otoh seemed to make a jump in 2018 but has since regressed. Part of that may be due to Toronto's developmental program but at the end of the day it's up to the player. And while Johnson does have the raw physical tools, there are just too many other good players to risk a lotto pick on him.

Poor Sactown. Should be entertaining if they decide to draft Johnson in that losing environment.
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Re: Draft Thread Part 2 

Post#1299 » by CoinTossRoss31 » Thu May 6, 2021 2:41 am

One thing that makes me excited though boys is our drafting team. Even if we don't pick the guy I want, I have full confidence that we will always be hitting on someone. May not be the best player in the draft, but we are always getting solid value for where we are picking
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Re: Draft Thread Part 2 

Post#1300 » by Psubs » Thu May 6, 2021 2:44 am

StringerBell wrote:
Dalek wrote:
StringerBell wrote:
Ooof. No athlete wants to hear that from their coach. Yikes.


Jalen is hard to get a read on, but there are red flags. I mean Zion and Kyrie stuck it out, same with Tatum. All of them had injuries but still finished their Duke year.

Johnson just didn't have the most impactful time on court where he averaged only 11 and 6, but what stuck out was that I just didn't see a great jumper (he hit 8 threes on a small number of tries, but his freethrows were below average and he never showed a go to jumpshot.) His size and athleticism remind me of Aaron Gordon - which to me is the greatest of NBA teases. He looks like he should be a star player, but falls short due to his mental make-up.

I just don't have a read on him, but I kind of hope someone else above Toronto takes him (hello Kings!) and we can watch how his career goes from a far.


I'm with you. Don't have great read on him either and there isn't much footage of him out there. But but given everything we know I'd rather they pass given his mental makeup. Not only does it effect how he plays on the court but also determines how much work he's willing to put into getting better and improve(in this case his 3 pt shot).

I like the Aaron Gordon comp and to take it a step further - compare Gordon's improvement vs OG's. OG's improved his 3 pt shot, ftr, ft% and his handle; Gordon otoh seemed to make a jump in 2018 but has since regressed. Part of that may be due to Toronto's developmental program but at the end of the day it's up to the player. And while Johnson does have the raw physical tools, there are just too many other good players to risk a lotto pick on him.

Poor Sactown. Should be entertaining if they decide to draft Johnson in that losing environment.


I think Scottie Barnes should be able to fit in to help defense and facilitate.
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