Does the "success" of the Knicks and Heat change anything?

[KL78192020]

Heat have been pretty bad all year and if anything people are less optimistic about them. Herro has been awful, Butler is 32 years old and teams like the Sixers, Nets and Bucks are miles ahead of them. They are done like dinner.

The Knicks have some nice young pieces in RJ and Randle. Randle has made huge strides this year. They made some band-aid moves in acquiring guys like Rose and Gibson which made them marginally better but still not good enough to compete. And they are missing the most important ingredient and that is a superstar. Randle and RJ are good pieces but not superstar material.

The Heat have been the opposite of successful and the Knicks are a few games over .500 and will be an early exit in the playoffs.

If we have a top 10 pick this year we will be better than both these teams next year.

Raptors will not be better than the Knicks next year if the roster is the same minus lowry and adding a top ten pick. Where the Raptors will pick they won't get someone that will make an impact for them, at least not in his rookie year.

Look at Demar/Ross/Poetl the last few guys drafted at that position. Didn't really do much in there first few years. Plus NYC has better chance of getting a good free agent than the Raptors.

[Spida888]

It doesn't change my outlook on the team too much. If the goal is to win another championship in the next few years and not rebuild, we have to find ways to beat the top teams in the east anyways and these 2 aren't contenders. Miami is obviously closer and with another star piece they will be one of the top east teams.

[Badonkadonk]

Really strange to correlate what the Raptors do to these two teams specifically.

NY and Miami have always been ahead of Toronto in terms of "outside appeal".

Absolutely nothing has changed.

When I think of Toronto and how positively everyone around the league looked at us - even after Kawhi left - it was because we were doing such an amazing job putting together a roster that tried on defense and that improved together. We were special for finding so many diamonds in the rough. At the moment, people are talking much more about how the Heat are doing that and how hard the Knicks are playing. I also think all three teams have something similar in Siakm, Julius, and Bam. The Knicks and Raptors definitely want our own version of Jimmy Butler to pair with our nice young big that still needs a legit scoring threat.

Think about it, Durant, Kyrie and Harden all decided to congregate in Brooklyn, because of that market. The Nets long history of failure sure didn't dissuade them.

The Raps have the exact same challenges they've always had, the 'chip didn't change that (Kawhi still wanted to go to LA), the Heat's fluky playoff run didn't change that, and the Knicks being the "4th best team in the EC" (lol) doesn't change that.

[Los_29]

Heat have been pretty bad all year and if anything people are less optimistic about them. Herro has been awful, Butler is 32 years old and teams like the Sixers, Nets and Bucks are miles ahead of them. They are done like dinner.

The Knicks have some nice young pieces in RJ and Randle. Randle has made huge strides this year. They made some band-aid moves in acquiring guys like Rose and Gibson which made them marginally better but still not good enough to compete. And they are missing the most important ingredient and that is a superstar. Randle and RJ are good pieces but not superstar material.

The Heat have been the opposite of successful and the Knicks are a few games over .500 and will be an early exit in the playoffs.

If we have a top 10 pick this year we will be better than both these teams next year.

Raptors will not be better than the Knicks next year if the roster is the same minus lowry and adding a top ten pick. Where the Raptors will pick they won't get someone that will make an impact for them, at least not in his rookie year.

Look at Demar/Ross/Poetl the last few guys drafted at that position. Didn't really do much in there first few years. Plus NYC has better chance of getting a good free agent than the Raptors.

Yeah sorry, also meant to say if we address their C issue as well. I;m not expecting our top draft pick to be a star right away but if we are picking in the range where we are now I think there is a strong possibility that we can get a player that will be able to play right away. And the thing is we actually are nowhere near as bad as our record (to be fair neither are the Heat). Knicks have had zero injuries to their key players meanwhile we haven't had any starter play more than 50 games.

The Knicks won't get any significant free agents with a core of Randle and RJ.

Very confident that we will better than both next year providing we stay healthy.

[bboyskinnylegs]

Regardless of what other teams are doing, we have work to do. Yes, we won a championship in 2019, but that is behind us now and not something we can continue to cling onto, and despite still having some players from that run, we are a completely different team now that needs a big talent infusion to become relevant again. Will be interesting to see what is/isn't done this summer.

[plainballing]

If this season and last taught me anything, then it is the landscape change so fast and you got to take advantage of everything.

Hence, I think the Kawhi trade looks like a trade for the century now. If it's too early or too soon then it will not end up the way it is.

[Johnny Bball]

This is why a lot of people aren't happy with the direction of this team.

If you were to look at all 3 teams without the market considerations its close, but the Raptors are currently below the Knicks and Heat. When you factor in that they are glamour markets its not even close.

As that article about the coastal elites pointed out, teams in these markets have a huge advantage. If they are run competently stars will take notice. A team like the Raptors have to nail as many marginal moves as they can and can't afford to mess up any bigger picture moves at all.

There has been a huge amount of attrition to the talent base since the Championship run and there has been precious little added. The deadline moves were a sign of indecision too.

Yes, it was the Knicks that made "these people" unhappy with the direction. And only very recently too.

[PhilBlackson]

If I was our management I'd never let the actions of 2 non contenders like those effect my decisions.

[StringerBell]

Doesn't even matter. A top 7 pick, full season of competent play from the bigs, not to mention playing in front of a home crowd and renewed commitment to playing D and this team has a better record than the Knicks next year.....guaranteed.

[TorontoRapsFan]

This is why a lot of people aren't happy with the direction of this team.

If you were to look at all 3 teams without the market considerations its close, but the Raptors are currently below the Knicks and Heat. When you factor in that they are glamour markets its not even close.

As that article about the coastal elites pointed out, teams in these markets have a huge advantage. If they are run competently stars will take notice. A team like the Raptors have to nail as many marginal moves as they can and can't afford to mess up any bigger picture moves at all.

There has been a huge amount of attrition to the talent base since the Championship run and there has been precious little added. The deadline moves were a sign of indecision too.

Your kind of talk (not yours specifically) is why a lot of people aren't happy with the direction of the team. You know the kind that says getting a 22 yr old averaging 15ppg was a sign of indecision at the deadline.

The 22 yr old GTJ and 23 yr old OG alone put Raps ahead of the Knicks in terms of young talent but that doesn't mean shi* when people just say whatever they want like it's the gospel. Only reason Miami can be said to have comparable or better young assets is because of Bam.

Knicks are probably the worst out of all 3 but also in the best position with Randle turning into a legit all star type of player and all their capspace. Biggest problem for them is that the free agency class coming up has no real difference makers. And Kawhi is not signing with Knicks. Also Knicks are overachieving for sure. TT has them playing real well now, but history has shown his coaching methods will drag his team back down to earth in following seasons. Whether that's because of his personal style or the amount of fatigue players experience I don't know, but it happens. Chances are Knicks are fighting for playoff spot next year.
Miami and Toronto are comparable in that they can improve from internal player improvements while their big names can still be big names for another couple years at least (this is more for the Heat with Butler and Dragic). They've both also had a down year that is most likely a blip. Also, Miami's cap space is not going to lead to much improvement either.

[YogurtProducer]

Over the next 4 years do you want:

FVV/Trent/OG/Siakam
Randle/Barrett/Toppin/Robinson
Butler (32 years old)/Herro/Bam/Oladipo

It’s easily Toronto’s core. If this season was played in Toronto, and COVID wasn’t a thing we’re still easily the best team of the 3. We were 3rd or 4th in the east pre-covid.

[Metallikid]

Randle's been great but just as we've been hosed by the refs all year conversely the Knicks have benefited. The League desperately wanted Knicks/Nets to be a real thing to the point that they decided they were going to get the Knicks a series win and a second round series against the Nets just to recoup some of their cash. That's why I think it's really unlikely the Bucks make any noise this year. Now that the Nuggets are no longer real contenders I expect every conference finalist to be a major markets.

So yeah, bet on the Knicks in any 4/5 matchup.

[kalel123]

This is pathetic.

Timberwolves also went to playoffs the first year Thibodeau coached them. Can somebody tell me what happened to their "success"?

At least let them get to the playoffs a few years in a row before you call anything they do a success.

[djsunyc]

we won the fn chip 2 seasons ago. our legit defense was robbed by covid and we are the only team away from home all year.

f all the other teams. masai/bobby will build us as best as they can...trust them and stop whining about everything.

[Marmoset]

Should the assumed improvement of the Knicks and Heat effect how we handle this off-season and/or what we do leading up to the next trade deadline?

The short answer is NO. The Raptors need to worry about themselves right now. This season it's the Knicks that are the Cinderella team making noise. Next year it could be someone else. You can't worry too much about what other teams are doing unless you're at the point where you are one of the elite teams in the conference and you need to consider specific potential matchups. The Raptors are not at that point.

I will say that I like where both of these teams are. The Heat have Butler and some good young players and shouldn't be counted out just because they've fallen off from last season. The Knicks have Randle playing outstanding ball and perhaps an early, younger version of Butler (RJ). The Knicks are relying on older players for some of their success but they have picks and cap space.

As many do, I believe the Raptors need an infusion of young, high-level talent. I'm not going to get into TWO here, but that is one way (not the only way) of getting young talent. I really don't care how they do it, but without it I don't see a likely road to being a contender again any time soon.

[TorontoRapsFan]

Really strange to correlate what the Raptors do to these two teams specifically.

NY and Miami have always been ahead of Toronto in terms of "outside appeal".

Absolutely nothing has changed.

When I think of Toronto and how positively everyone around the league looked at us - even after Kawhi left - it was because we were doing such an amazing job putting together a roster that tried on defense and that improved together. We were special for finding so many diamonds in the rough. At the moment, people are talking much more about how the Heat are doing that and how hard the Knicks are playing. I also think all three teams have something similar in Siakm, Julius, and Bam. The Knicks and Raptors definitely want our own version of Jimmy Butler to pair with our nice young big that still needs a legit scoring threat.

Think about it, Durant, Kyrie and Harden all decided to congregate in Brooklyn, because of that market. The Nets long history of failure sure didn't dissuade them.

The Raps have the exact same challenges they've always had, the 'chip didn't change that (Kawhi still wanted to go to LA), the Heat's fluky playoff run didn't change that, and the Knicks being the "4th best team in the EC" (lol) doesn't change that.

The Nets' case is not really about an outside appeal like the Heat or the Knicks. The nets got lucky bagging Kyrie. And then they got super lucky that Durant was going through whatever at GS and Kyrie, being looked at as a superstar around the league, got them Durant. And Harden going to play there has absolutely nothing to do with the team as an organization or the city.

[Kevin Willis]

we won the fn chip 2 seasons ago. our legit defense was robbed by covid and we are the only team away from home all year.

f all the other teams. masai/bobby will build us as best as they can...trust them and stop whining about everything.

Agree that people don't realize if we had home court last season we had a really strong chance to making it to the final. Also some don't understand if half our line-up wasn't affected by covid for a month we would be a top 4 seed this year. I am not sure we should be looking up to the Heat and Knicks.

[Badonkadonk]

When I think of Toronto and how positively everyone around the league looked at us - even after Kawhi left - it was because we were doing such an amazing job putting together a roster that tried on defense and that improved together. We were special for finding so many diamonds in the rough. At the moment, people are talking much more about how the Heat are doing that and how hard the Knicks are playing. I also think all three teams have something similar in Siakm, Julius, and Bam. The Knicks and Raptors definitely want our own version of Jimmy Butler to pair with our nice young big that still needs a legit scoring threat.

Think about it, Durant, Kyrie and Harden all decided to congregate in Brooklyn, because of that market. The Nets long history of failure sure didn't dissuade them.

The Raps have the exact same challenges they've always had, the 'chip didn't change that (Kawhi still wanted to go to LA), the Heat's fluky playoff run didn't change that, and the Knicks being the "4th best team in the EC" (lol) doesn't change that.

The Nets' case is not really about an outside appeal like the Heat or the Knicks. The nets got lucky bagging Kyrie. And then they got super lucky that Durant was going through whatever at GS and Kyrie, being looked at as a superstar around the league, got them Durant. And Harden going to play there has absolutely nothing to do with the team as an organization or the city.

The Nets did not get "really lucky", outside of having to be located in Brooklyn. Those dominoes, starting with Kyrie, all happened specifically because of the market.

Kyrie doesn't randomly decide to go to Indiana or back to Cleveland and try to attract other FAs for a reason.

[HomieOmey]

we won the fn chip 2 seasons ago. our legit defense was robbed by covid and we are the only team away from home all year.

f all the other teams. masai/bobby will build us as best as they can...trust them and stop whining about everything.

Agree that people don't realize if we had home court last season we had a really strong chance to making it to the final. Also some don't understand if half our line-up wasn't affected by covid for a month we would be a top 4 seed this year. I am not sure we should be looking up to the Heat and Knicks.

I actually really liked our chances in the bubble. I thought we would have beat Boston if Ibaka just played more. I'm not looking up to either the Heat or Knicks, it's just hard to ignore the talent increase in the NBA. Feels like every team in the league now has 2-3 players worth building with. Before the bubble we had no reason to worry about the Bulls or Knicks. They were complete jokes. The reality is that we will now be fighting with several teams just to continue to make the playoffs.

I also agree that the Raps have a chance to be better than both teams next season, and for that reason I wouldn't be quick to blow things up. All things considered, I actually rather compete and look to add/trade for guys like L.Ball/Turner. I just see how this season has been mostly wasted without putting us in a significantly better position moving forward, so feel like it's important to realize how much the league has improved around us. We are no longer in a position where we can just assume the teams around us are going to shoot themselves in the feet.

[RaptorNews]

The East looks prime for the taking in 2-3 years more than ever

Miami basically relies on Butler to make them any sort of threat come playoff time. Their depth is dwindling and Herro is looking like a flash in the pan. I’m sure they can attract another free agent or two but they should not be a concern for our future plans

The Knicks aren’t really that talented. If they can lure another free agent, good for them but they’re absolutely a “defensive culture” team more than anything which can only get you so far.

Looking at the top 3 contenders, Brooklyn is the most stacked by far but their two best players are nearing the tail end of their primes. Milwaukee and Philly will probably still be around but they seem to perpetually have a ceiling

There is nothing telling us anything other than to stockpile young talent now and make a move in a year or two