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Tank World Order (4.0)

Moderators: 7 Footer, Duffman100, Alfred, lebron stopper, niQ, gojoorange, DG88, Morris_Shatford

When did you join Tank World Order?

From day 1.
21
16%
After our 2-8 start.
42
32%
When Covid hit the team and we went on a huge losing streak.
47
36%
Never.
20
15%
 
Total votes: 130

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Re: Tank World Order (4.0) 

Post#641 » by Pooh_Jeter » Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:21 am

The same people who were commissioning studies on how the average lotto pick is Norm Powell and that top 5 picks don't have any relevancy to championships are suddenly over the moon about the 7th best lottery odds. I'm happy you have all seen the light.
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Re: Tank World Order (4.0) 

Post#642 » by pingpongrac » Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:42 am

Mehar wrote:
pingpongrac wrote:
Mehar wrote:If the Raptors slide into the top 4 with the luck of the lottery, I wonder what those Team Mediocre members will think? The same ones who told me they rather go for the "play-in", since this team can put up a good fight in the first round, and for the sake of the winning culture going forward. If we are lucky to move up and draft a Suggs or Green, maybe we should ask Wizards fans if they would trade places?

Frankly, this team should have played Baynes 30-40 minutes a game after the trade deadline, and not signed Birch/Gillespie. He was statistically one of the worst starters in the league. Masai made a short sighted move upgrading the Centre position. Signing Birch, allowed Boucher to play well and have big games at the 4 position in some wins. By my calculation, this team could have lost at least 5-6 more games after the trade deadline, if Baynes was playing major minutes, and Pascal and OG were scratched for some more games.

We could have been tied OKC and Cleveland. We should have been 4th or 5th. There was a 4 game win streak in April against Orlando, San Antonio, OKC, and Brooklyn. All close wins, where the starters played heavy minutes, and Baynes was stapled to the bench. The same with the Wizards buzzer beater, and wins against the Lakers and Cleveland also. We could have been at least 4th, with a true tanking effort like OKC. Still glad to be at least 7th though.


The argument that we would have lost 4 or 5 extra games post-trade deadline if we didn't sign Birch/Gillespie + played Baynes 30 MPG is incredibly shortsighted and just flat-out wrong. Of our 9 wins post-trade deadline, 4 were against tanking teams (2 were blowouts against Cleveland) and 1 was against the Warriors without Curry and Green (which was a 53-point win). Those were not easy games to lose regardless of who was on the floor (Siakam+FVV+Lowry missed the first Cavs game, Siakam+OG+Lowry missed the Magic game, Siakam+OG+FVV+Lowry missed the OKC game). Even the games against the Wizards (who were without Beal+Rui and before they turned their season around while we were without FVV+Lowry) and Spurs (no FVV+Lowry) aren't sure losses even if we sat a few more starters.

Regarding Birch/Gillespie, they were very hit or miss. Birch was mostly very good (12/8/2 on 60 TS% with a +4.8 on/off rating), but Gillespie was statistically one of the worst players in the NBA (-16.2 on/off rating and 457th in NetRTG). Overall, they produced more on the stat sheet, but their combined impact was marginally better than Baynes for the season. They weren't the reason we won a whopping 7 times in our last 20 games.


I am not talking about the Warriors game and the first Cavs game, which was a blowout. I specifically mentioned 5-6 games that should have been losses, if the team truly wanted to tank like OKC. The 4 game win streak in April (Brooklyn, OKC, Orlando, and San Antonio) should have been losses, if this team wanted to "tank". They lost by 6 points to OKC in a back and forth affair, and the starters playing major minutes. The Orlando game was close, until they pulled away and won by 11 points. Those could have been losses, if Nurse was told to tank.

I am also talking about the Lakers win, and the Wizards buzzer beater. Forget who was not playing. If this team wanted to tank, and lose those 6 games, Masai could have instructed Nurse to play Baynes 35-40 minutes, and reduce the minutes of FVV, OG and Pascal in those wins. I do not buy the argument this team was tanking in April. Maybe towards the end of the year. If this team was tanking- Birch would not have been signed, and guys like Pascal and OG would have rested more, and not played major minutes in some of those wins. Same with FVV. A proper tank job, and this team should have gotten at least 5-6 more losses. Those losses would have probably meant the 4th worst record. However, I am hopeful we can still get it on the draft lottery.


You can't just say "forget who was playing, Nurse should have made them lose on purpose!" Hate to break it to you, but the players on the floor and the coaches are always playing to win first and foremost. Those games that you highlighted during the 4-game winning streak were not all won because our starters played too many minutes either.

SAS game is debatable; FVV+Lowry+Trent didn't play while Siakam played 37 minutes and OG played 34 minutes. Siakam and OG scored 44 points on 40% shooting while the rest of the team scored 73 points on 51% shooting.

ORL game was clear as day as close to a tank job as you can get aside from forfeiting the game; Siakam+OG+Lowry+Trent didn't play while FVV played just 23 minutes. Watson, Yuta and Johnson combined for 64 points on 22/32 shooting (13/20 on 3FGA). Also, that game wasn't really that close as soon as we took the lead midway through the 3rd. We lead by ~15 points for the last 16 minutes.

OKC game was also a clear tank job; FVV+Lowry+Siakam+OG all sat out. Solid contributions from just about everyone who played. Can't get mad at what was basically a bunch of undrafted players, rookies and outcasts showing up and winning a game against arguably the worst NBA team in the league this past season.

The only game from that streak that we won because of our starters was against the Nets. Starters scored 91 points on 48% shooting and were all +10 or better in +/- while the bench was awful (23 points on 33% shooting and a cumulative -20).

The Lakers game is the only other of our 9 wins that was clearly won because our top 4 or 5 players balled out. Every other game was won largely because of random/young players going off (Flynn+Bembry with big games against Washington then GTJ hitting the buzzer beater, GTJ against Cleveland, Watson against Orlando, Boucher against OKC, etc.) or the thorough beatdown against an undermanned GSW.

Losing 4-5 of those games against mostly inferior teams while we were already sitting multiple top players would have been an incredibly steep task. Even so, losing 4 games gives us AT BEST a 50/50 chance of increasing our odds at a top 4 pick by 5%. The organization did as good of a job as it could have done considering the talent of the top end of the roster without racking up even more fines.
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Re: Tank World Order (4.0) 

Post#643 » by Los_29 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:53 am

Mehar wrote:
720 wrote:
Jerry Lucas wrote:Yeah I gotta be honest here, I was TWO this year and when the Raps got Birch my first thought was "Nice we got another tank commander to help Baynes." I may have actually posted something along those lines in the Birch thread but I don't remember for sure.

Gillespie my first thoughts were "Random scrub, probably helps the tank because he's a random scrub." Didn't really know anything about Gillespie and even when we signed him I'm pretty sure most people thought he would just be a one and done 10 day.

That's some sound logic. Replace the minutes of our tank commander with ano..ther tank commander? lol Okay.

In that Birch thread my first post was a reply to Duff saying I hope we don't sign him if it meant Baynes losing minutes.

Team Mediocre can downplay Birch and Gillespie all they want. It makes NO SENSE to replace our worst player's minutes completely IF we are tanking. :lol:


Absolutely agree with this. If you are tanking, why are you gonna replace one of the worst starting Centres in the league, and upgrade that position with Birch? Birch is no all-star, but he is a better rebounder and overall player than Baynes. I said it when the signing was made. It was not a good move, since it meant putting Baynes on the bench. I wanted to do what OKC was doing for one more month, to ensure I got the 4th pick. Instead this team goes on a 4 game win streak in April, and beats the Wizards in a buzzer beater, along with the Lakers. We lose those 5-6 games like we should of, and we are possibly looking at the 4th pick overall.

Then Baynes sat on the bench for a month, and Birch played some good games in some wins for this team. Team Mediocre were the same clowns who were saying that this team should go for the "play-in", since they can pull off an upset in the first round; and for the winning culture overall since they have a decent Centre in Birch now. This was after the team was on a 4 game win streak in April. No need to debate these people. This team was not truly tanking in April.


Why did Orlando sign Mo Wagner? Why did Houston start Olynyk who is 30 years old, a free agent at the end of the year and averaged almost 20ppg for them? Why did Sacramento trade for Delon Wright and a 2nd round pick for Terence Davis?

What makes you think Birch is the better rebounder than Baynes? Statistically Birch isn't the better rebounder. And Baynes has had the better career. The reality is Baynes is not part of the teams future and Birch might be part of the future. Therefore they picked up Birch and sat Baynes.

Every team in the league even tanking teams don't stop making moves. It's just silly to think that Birch had a difference in the win/loss column. I'd absolutely love to see the statistics that show Birch resulted in 6 wins which is what it would have taken to move up in the standings.

You guys absolutely need to stop this. :lol: If you're going to continue with this false narrative then you need to bring up actual facts to support your argument. If not, then you need to move on. Just like the posts of other users on here, these posts are going to be 10x funnier next year when Gillespie is buried on the bench and Birch is playing 12mpg.

There have been some gems on this board and thinking the Raptors weren't tanking is among the craziest ones I've seen so far.
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Re: Tank World Order (4.0) 

Post#644 » by Danny1616 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:17 am

Steelo Green wrote:
Danny1616 wrote:
Steelo Green wrote:People use ad hominems and have no actual responses.

Did the Raptors tank when they brought Pascal and Fred back when they were on their win streak and played them on a B2B. Simple question?

When they won 4 straight and were a game back of the play in, why were they still playing?

Raptors didn’t “tank” until 5-6 games left. Nothing can disprove this.

With regard to Curry, the Warriors had Dray healthy most of the season too and he played 43 games.

Everyone knows they milked the hand injury. He broke his hand end of October and played one game at start of March. Warriors tanked. He came back just for show and that was it. He missed more than 4 months with a broken hand?


First, it's getting extremely tiresome to you see you play the victim during every single argument instead of actual making a response.

Then you make complete black and white statements like "Raptors didn’t “tank” until 5-6 games left. Nothing can disprove this." We literally presented with you with quotes from mid-April (when the Raptors still had about 16-17 games left) were both Fred and Lowry admitted the team was tanking, lol.

With respect to Curry you then say "everyone knows they milked the hand injury. He broke his hand end of October and played one game at start of March. Warriors tanked. He came back just for show and that was it. He missed more than 4 months with a broken hand?"

I literally presented you with the approximate timeline for his recovery. Curry returned about 2 weeks after his approximated timeline and there were still 18 games left in the season. He got hurt right in November and his estimated timeline for recovery was mid-February. He returned on March 6. Covid-19 literally hit the league 4 days after his return.

When you use lines like "nothing can disprove this" and "everyone knows this", despite us literally presenting documented evidence that directly contradicts your statements, you lose credibility.

Quotes? What do quotes mean. Nothing. We have the actual game logs. What do we trust? Words of people trying to sell a story? They played the games during that span. How can you tank if you play two back to back games 40 minutes?

Curry was healthy to play with at least 20 games left, but again, unlike us, they knew the season was a wash, so they actually tanked.

Everyone on planet earth knew the Warriors were tanking. They even played Draymond here and there. He would sit for rest from the second or third month of the season.

Yes - all the info is there. All you have are some quotes from the players trying to sell something.

What is your response to our guys coming back with 20 left and then playing B2B post COVID? Or is your quote something to disprove actual games played?

This is similar to your “no one who drafted their own player has a title in the last twenty years with their top pick except one” fallacy.

Just saying someone is wrong and then saying they’re dishonest isn’t really any discussion, it’s just conjecture and me right, you wrong.

But sure - let’s use a quote over the actual game log.

Either way - the discussion is pointless and going in circles.


1) All we have is quotes? Those quotes from mid-April from Vanvleet and Lowry affirmed what direction the team was going. Lowry, in particular, after missing about 8 out of the 9 previous games, literally smirked and admitted he he was "very well rested." Fred, who also missed several games, literally admitted that he did not necessarily agree with management's direction, but would support whatever the franchise chooses to do. Those quotes were affirmed by the fact that Lowry missed about 9 out of 10 games before saying he was "very well rested" and hinting that we were tanking.

Multiple posters here have literally gone over game logs and clearly illustrated that since late March, and especially since Mid-April, about half our starting line-up was missing on a regular basis.

You stating black and white assertions such as "nothing you can disproves it", yet ignoring rebuttals from multiple posters, doesn't mean you are right.

2) Nobody here said the Warriors were not "tanking." The Warriors lost Klay for the season and Curry broke his hand 4 games into the season and was expected to miss 3-4 months. The Warriors were top heavy and obviously struggled without their two best players playing. This doesn't change the fact that the Warriors did not deliberately try to tank before Curry got hurt. Sure, after Curry got hurt, everyone knew it was a lost season for the Warriors. Nobody disputes that.

It also does not discount the fact that Curry returned in March 6th and had no Covid-19 not happened, he would have played the remaining 18 games. Not sure what you are trying to say here.

3) My thread was that "Only two teams have won an NBA title with their own top 3 draft pick since the 1990 draft." You can keep misconstruing it all you want. I laid out the parameters and it was factual. Only two teams did win with their own top 3 pick since the 1990 draft. Care to present any arguments to the contrary?

My advice is stop playing the victim and accusing posters that don't agree with you of being the same people.
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Re: Tank World Order (4.0) 

Post#645 » by Danny1616 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:24 am

Pooh_Jeter wrote:The same people who were commissioning studies on how the average lotto pick is Norm Powell and that top 5 picks don't have any relevancy to championships are suddenly over the moon about the 7th best lottery odds. I'm happy you have all seen the light.


Not what we said whatsoever.

The argument was that long-standing team/winning culture, player development, strong scouting, and smart trades often trumps tanking for the sake of tanking.

When teams tank with no direction for the sake of tanking, it doesn't necessarily mean it will produce better long-term results. When a team tanks by virtue of devastating injuries to their team (Spurs losing Robinson in 97 or Warriors losing Curry/Klay in 2020), then obviously tanking is more favorable. If a team has been a perennial middle of the road team (one that finishes between 7-11 for multiple years), it might also make sense to make serious trades and/or tank.

From your perspective, literally every team that doesn't have a clear cut top 5 MVP caliber player should tank. That's all you've been arguing.

None of us were saying not to tank if it was clear our team has no shot at making the playoffs. I have said repeatedly that if half way through the season it is clear that our team is not good and clearly a long-shot at a good playoff run, then I would support a tank. What I didn't support was deliberately tanking for the sake tanking before the season even started when we had just come off a nearly 60 win pace season and were minutes away from a conference finals appearance.

We aren't "over the moon" with the 7th best lottery odds. Our team was still too talented to tank with OKC, the Rockets, Minnesota etc. Minny, for example, were still playing Towns and Edwards deep into the season. Not that easy to out-tank them. Based on the up and downs with this crazy Covid-19 filled season, finishing 7th from the bottom is not bad. It would have been tough to catch the teams below us.

You can keep misconstruing the debate and presenting erroneous, hyperbolic caricature of what others were saying, but that's simply not the case.
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Re: Tank World Order (4.0) 

Post#646 » by mdenny » Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:53 am

This is the most re-cock-ulous thread i have ever read on this board.

Shameless trolling. I honestly can't conceive of an adult male deciding to behave in this way lol. Maybe i'm just old-fashioned lol
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Re: Tank World Order (4.0) 

Post#647 » by Johnny Bball » Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:23 pm

I find it hilarious that some people that almost never make positive or happy posts are trying to claim ownership of positive or happy, or inferring to people which parts of their teams fortunes they are allowed to cheer for.

Can't wait to move up and win that 5th pick myself.
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Re: Tank World Order (4.0) 

Post#648 » by Steelo Green » Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:46 pm

It is odd that the side which tends to constantly respond with vitriol seem to believe they are positive and happy go lucky.

Realism is now associated with negativity and correlated with personal enjoyment.

We can go through all the posts and see who is using the personal attacks and it will be surprisingly those who claim "happy".

I mean, certain posters in here questioned others mental health and to medicate themselves, but hey, they are the "happy" and "positive" ones.

Those who throw stones :P
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Re: Tank World Order (4.0) 

Post#649 » by Yeezus_ » Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:04 pm

Steelo Green wrote:It is odd that the side which tends to constantly respond with vitriol seem to believe they are positive and happy go lucky.

Realism is now associated with negativity and correlated with personal enjoyment.

We can go through all the posts and see who is using the personal attacks and it will be surprisingly those who claim "happy".

I mean, certain posters in here questioned others mental health and to medicate themselves, but hey, they are the "happy" and "positive" ones.

Those who throw stones :P

That's what you call it? Realism? :lol:
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Re: Tank World Order (4.0) 

Post#650 » by Fairview4Life » Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:08 pm

Steelo Green wrote:We can go through all the posts and see who is using the personal attacks and it will be surprisingly those who claim "happy".

I mean, certain posters in here questioned others mental health and to medicate themselves, but hey, they are the "happy" and "positive" ones.


Steelo Green wrote:Those who throw stones


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9. Similarly, IF THOU HAST SPENT the entire offseason predicting that thy team will stink, thou shalt not gloat, nor even be happy, shouldst thou turn out to be correct. Realistic analysis is fine, but be a fan first, a smug smarty-pants second.
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Re: Tank World Order (4.0) 

Post#651 » by Steelo Green » Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:11 pm

Fairview4Life wrote:
Steelo Green wrote:We can go through all the posts and see who is using the personal attacks and it will be surprisingly those who claim "happy".

I mean, certain posters in here questioned others mental health and to medicate themselves, but hey, they are the "happy" and "positive" ones.


Steelo Green wrote:Those who throw stones


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The others were the ones who questioned others mental health, directed at me, but yes, gif it up for those And1s.
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Re: Tank World Order (4.0) 

Post#652 » by Fairview4Life » Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:14 pm

Steelo Green wrote:
Fairview4Life wrote:
Steelo Green wrote:We can go through all the posts and see who is using the personal attacks and it will be surprisingly those who claim "happy".

I mean, certain posters in here questioned others mental health and to medicate themselves, but hey, they are the "happy" and "positive" ones.


Steelo Green wrote:Those who throw stones


Image

The others were the ones who questioned others mental health, directed at me, but yes, gif it up for those And1s.


Image
9. Similarly, IF THOU HAST SPENT the entire offseason predicting that thy team will stink, thou shalt not gloat, nor even be happy, shouldst thou turn out to be correct. Realistic analysis is fine, but be a fan first, a smug smarty-pants second.
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Re: Tank World Order (4.0) 

Post#653 » by Steelo Green » Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:14 pm

Yeezus_ wrote:
Steelo Green wrote:It is odd that the side which tends to constantly respond with vitriol seem to believe they are positive and happy go lucky.

Realism is now associated with negativity and correlated with personal enjoyment.

We can go through all the posts and see who is using the personal attacks and it will be surprisingly those who claim "happy".

I mean, certain posters in here questioned others mental health and to medicate themselves, but hey, they are the "happy" and "positive" ones.

Those who throw stones :P

That's what you call it? Realism? :lol:

Well many people said this team would take a pretty big step back and were attacked, and in the end that is exactly what happened.

So instead of seeing it as rainbows and butterflies, it was just seeing this team for what it is. Not sure why anger is thought to be associated with calling a spade a spade.

People are claiming it was COVID and injuries as the big reason why, but I anticipate more of the same next year with Kyle either gone or just aging more. The true catalyst of our 50 win seasons for 7 years.

Our top two guys are below average league efficiency, we took a pretty large step back on D with Gasol, who himself also fell off.

This team is mediocrity personified. It was already proven last year, but with the COVID and injury excuses, it may take a second season before people see what this team is and switch sides.

But yes - calling this team mediocre means I am so angry :lol:
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Re: Tank World Order (4.0) 

Post#654 » by Danny1616 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:18 pm

Steelo Green wrote:It is odd that the side which tends to constantly respond with vitriol seem to believe they are positive and happy go lucky.

Realism is now associated with negativity and correlated with personal enjoyment.

We can go through all the posts and see who is using the personal attacks and it will be surprisingly those who claim "happy".

I mean, certain posters in here questioned others mental health and to medicate themselves, but hey, they are the "happy" and "positive" ones.

Those who throw stones :P


Didn't you accuse me of being the same as another poster simply because we both disagreed with you?

Weird projection, but okay.

Keep playing the victim.
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Re: Tank World Order (4.0) 

Post#655 » by Danny1616 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:23 pm

Steelo Green wrote:
Yeezus_ wrote:
Steelo Green wrote:It is odd that the side which tends to constantly respond with vitriol seem to believe they are positive and happy go lucky.

Realism is now associated with negativity and correlated with personal enjoyment.

We can go through all the posts and see who is using the personal attacks and it will be surprisingly those who claim "happy".

I mean, certain posters in here questioned others mental health and to medicate themselves, but hey, they are the "happy" and "positive" ones.

Those who throw stones :P

That's what you call it? Realism? :lol:

Well many people said this team would take a pretty big step back and were attacked, and in the end that is exactly what happened.

So instead of seeing it as rainbows and butterflies, it was just seeing this team for what it is. Not sure why anger is thought to be associated with calling a spade a spade.

People are claiming it was COVID and injuries as the big reason why, but I anticipate more of the same next year with Kyle either gone or just aging more. The true catalyst of our 50 win seasons for 7 years.

Our top two guys are below average league efficiency, we took a pretty large step back on D with Gasol, who himself also fell off.

This team is mediocrity personified. It was already proven last year, but with the COVID and injury excuses, it may take a second season before people see what this team is and switch sides.

But yes - calling this team mediocre means I am so angry :lol:


No, this started back last playoffs when many of you even predicted we would even lose to Brooklyn.

Then after many of you were saying that the Cavaliers, the Magic, the Celtics and other teams etc. had a way better long-term future compared to us. I remember when the Cavaliers got to a hot start some of you were acting like they were the next great young core of the league.

This was a weird year. The Lakers nearly lost in the play-in. Boston had a very up and down year. The Heat got swept in the 1st round. Indiana, who were great last year, did pretty bad as well.

The lack of home court, teams getting hit by Covid, injuries etc. all played a pretty big role in skewing the standings this season. Just like we saw in the bubble when some teams (like the Clippers) or players (Siakam, Lou Williams etc.) showed up out of shape. The Heat were not a real contender, for example.
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Re: Tank World Order (4.0) 

Post#656 » by 720 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:37 pm

Just in case we’re ass next year.

This team has no future without a superstar. #Fade4Cade #Suck4Suggs #Failin4Jalen

“We will not be stuck in no-man’s land”-Masai Ujiri

#tWo
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Re: Tank World Order (4.0) 

Post#657 » by KrazyP » Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:43 pm

Pooh_Jeter wrote:The same people who were commissioning studies on how the average lotto pick is Norm Powell and that top 5 picks don't have any relevancy to championships are suddenly over the moon about the 7th best lottery odds. I'm happy you have all seen the light.


The average top 5-10 pick in the last 20 picks is roughly equivalent to Norman Powell. Just because people are now getting excited doesnt mean the facts have changed.

The team right now is roughly where it was during the 2016 draft when they landed Poeltl (#8), Siakam (#27), VanVleet (undrafted). That draft was key to the 2019 Championship as they were able to turn middling picks into legit depth/assets. This allowed them to have the asset base necessary to eventually make a big move. A star in this draft would be great but I'm just hoping for 2-3 solid rotation players that the Raps can develop into valuable assets.

This draft is supposedly super deep so hopefully it works out. That said, if the Raps strike out, its not the end of the world either. The draft is and always will be a crapshoot.
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Re: Tank World Order (4.0) 

Post#658 » by canz55 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:45 pm

Guys give it a rest already.

What a sad state of affairs my God.

You'd think the championship happened 50 years ago...

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Re: Tank World Order (4.0) 

Post#659 » by VanWest82 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:47 pm

I’m kind of out on sub 200 lbs 7 footers. Chet Holmgren looks like a stiff breeze could block his shot.
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Re: Tank World Order (4.0) 

Post#660 » by raptorforlife88 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:56 pm

Some of these discussion are just hilarious. There was not going to be a way for us to be as bad as the worst teams in the league this year.

5/6 of the teams below us had such limited talent that removing a single player would immediately shoot them to the bottom. The Raptors had multiple players you had to remove or rest to get to that level. The Raptors were probably a better team than like five of the teams they finished below.

They managed to lose more games than they realistically should have so take what you can get here.

Honestly, you've got Cleveland, Detroit, Houston and OKC without SGA. There was never going to be a way to be realistically worse than them. Orlando is the only one that really tore it apart with deals. And Minnesota wound up looking better by the end of the year but it was too late.
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