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Draft Thread Part 4

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Re: Draft Thread Part 4 

Post#1461 » by CoreyVillains » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:18 pm

Federalies wrote:
CoreyVillains wrote:
gojoorange wrote:I am not that high on Mitchell's potential as an elite NBA defender. He's small and he lacks strength to battle in the post. Smart teams will absolutely target him in mismatches. He doesn't have the strength of Lowry to be able to battle bigger players down low. If you compare Mitchell to another good defender like Jaden Springer, I think Springer's size and strength will make him a better and more versatile defender in the NBA.

There is no questioning Davion's foot speed and reaction time but elite on ball defense is only a small part of what makes a good defensive guard. Strength is absolutely necessary to be an elite defender as a guard if you don't have length like Dejounte Murray or Lonzo Ball. Part of what makes players like FVV so effective is elite strength for his size, something Davion will have to add over the years.


Disagree about Davion not being strong enough to battle in the post. I did a video on how he guarded Cade and he guarded him about as well as you could.



Great video and while Davion does an admirable job, Cade still scored 24 and 25 points on decent efficiency in each of the two games against Baylor. All that to say, I’d suggest that Cade still going off says potentially more about Cade’s “generational “ skill set than Davion’s good defence. Just my two cents though!


Thanks man! Most of the work Cade got in during the Baylor matchup in the vid was against other matchups or in early offense situations, but totally agree about Cade's skill and how he was still able to contribute offensively even against tough defenses says a ton about him.
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Re: Draft Thread Part 4 

Post#1462 » by Indeed » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:22 pm

Dalek wrote:I think what people dismiss with Davion is that while he patterns his game after Donavon Mitchell, he literally falls short. Donavon Mitchell tested out a 40 inch vert and a 6'10 wingspan back in his draft year. Norman Powell had similar types of pre-draft measurements. Even Marcus Smart was a crazy run jump athlete coming in. The crazy vert and wingspan help with finishing, making the jumpshot a little hard to close on. The NBA is a game of inches unless you just have outlier IQ and skill and speed.

I applaud Davion for raising his draft stock, but I have seen any high level finishing from him, and he just seems like a lower tier athlete coming in. It is why I prefer Keon over Davion and Springer.

Compare this Keon finish (and Suggs also)
Spoiler:
Read on Twitter


to this Davion finish
Spoiler:
Read on Twitter


Davion looks like a college athlete versus Keon who is an NBA level one. Against NBA length it makes all the difference.


For guards, it is hard to evaluate based on finishing. Same thing as evaluating their block number or rim protection for a guard may not give you much impact on the defensive end.

Personally, I would put "breaking down the defense" and "passing" as the priority, shooting believe to be something that can be improve (applied to both Keon and Davion), finishing would be last (since I value passing ahead).

The biggest question is more than "creating their own shot", can they "break down the defense" would be a higher level, and something we are missing.
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Re: Draft Thread Part 4 

Post#1463 » by Indeed » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:28 pm

Mark_83 wrote:
VanWest82 wrote:
Mark_83 wrote:My concern about drafting Mitchell is two-fold: 1) You're drafting him to eventually start next to Fred which means he'll be expected to guard the SG and not the PG.

The average size for a SG in the NBA is 6'5.4 with shoes with a 6'8 wingspan. Mitchell at 6'2 with shoes and a 6'5 wingspan is the size of an average PG.

http://analyticsgame.com/nba/average-nba-position-draft-measurements.html

Opposing shooting guards are going to have a much easier time seeing and shooting over him. Klay, Jaylen Brown, Harden, Paul George, these are the guys he's going to be guarding. All these guys are bigger than him.

Davion always took the hardest perimeter assignment which was often a wing. If he's guarding wings in the NBA it'll just be more of the same of what he did in college. His defensive fit would be the least of the issues.

The average height of a college SG is 6'3. The average height of a college SF is 6'5. That's hardly "just more of the same" in the NBA, and we're not even talking about the difference in skill level yet.

https://www.athleticscholarships.net/basketballscholarships.htm

VanWest82 wrote:I disagree that we don't know much about his defensive IQ. The nice thing about Mitchell playing three years is there's lots of tape. He's way up there making reads as an off ball defender.

Norman Powell played 4 years at UCLA. He was considered one of the best peremiter defenders in the NCAA when he was drafted (was often compared to Tony Allen, one of the best defenders in the NBA).

Has good defensive awareness … Great perimeter defender … Keeps defenders contained on an island … Has lateral quickness and uses his upper body well as a wall between his man and the basket … Very physical and uses his strength to get over screens … Has quick feet and can defend both guard positions … Has quick hands and digs at the ball while defending on the perimeter or in post (averaged 1.8 steals this past season) … Active defender off the ball (positions himself well and denies passing lanes) … Uses his 6-11 wingspan in the passing lanes, to effectively contest shots and defend at the rim …


Despite this scouting report, he's been a solid but not great on ball defender, and a below average team defender. No one can argue that Norm is low-IQ, but it's about instincts not effort. You can't just assume that defense will translate from the NCAA to the next level, especially when a guy is most known for harrassing on-ball coverage. There were many college "defensive stoppers" who never lived up to their billing in the NBA.


Who is the below average team defender you are referring to?
From the scouting report, Davion is a very good team defender. He is at the right position at the right time for the charge.

His problem is more on the offense, as question about his shooting being real, and his lack of advanced ball handling and playmaking need improvement. Defense is not a problem, not even playing with VanVleet, as both of them should able to guard 1 - 2. Davion will have advantage in guarding quicker players as well.
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Re: Draft Thread Part 4 

Post#1464 » by Raptorfan2012 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:40 pm

gojoorange wrote:Interesting article on statistical draft comps:

https://theanalyst.com/na/2021/06/2021-nba-draft-prospects-player-comparisons/


If we are going with this study, only players I would be interested are:

- Scottie Barnes: between Kris Dunn and Westbrook/Holiday.
- Keon Johnson: between Archie Goodwin and all the way to Westbook/Oladipo/Rose; real definition of high risk/high reward.
- Moses Moody: between Romeo Langford (who?) to maybe a Kennard/Wiggins/Hayward.
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Re: Draft Thread Part 4 

Post#1465 » by Saciid11 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:51 pm

gojoorange wrote:
Saciid11 wrote:
gojoorange wrote:Does Davion project to be a better NBA player than Kris Dunn? I know that's an obvious comp but does his athleticism or IQ give him a higher ceiling?


He definitely project to be better pro then Dunn, just eye test alone says Mitchell has tools to offensively and translate to NBA.


My eyes were playing tricks on me then because Dunn was a beast at Providence.

It's hard to ignore the statistical similarities between them. Even the junior year shooting outlier is the same. Davion's had a higher percentage for an outlier season so maybe it's legit. I think players like Luka and OG have shown that it's possible to be a good 3 point shooter while not being the best free throw shooter. It's rare though. Makes me wonder if all Kris Dunn needed was a better development program when he first came into the league.


I remember Dunn being seen as big point guard with elite defensive potential, I don't remember Dunn ever possessing the quickness, elite first step, hesitation move Davion Mitchell has shown this year. I also don't remember Dunn being horrible shooter at college level, Mitchell on the other hand has shown tremendous improvements shooting the 3's going from .290 to .445 this year.

Again best comparison is Donovan Mitchell ..
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Re: Draft Thread Part 4 

Post#1466 » by Mark_83 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:57 pm

Indeed wrote:
Mark_83 wrote:
Indeed wrote:
Those are legit concerns. Wonder who we draft at 7th/8th/9th wouldn't have those concerns?

I might not have him at 7th, but I don't feel anyone we are drafting at 7th would standout to be better.

Drafting is about risk assessment. You have to decide which risks your comfortable taking, what can be improved, etc. You can't improve measurements so you have to make sure the rewards are greater than the risk.


Davion has elite quickness, where others cannot learn nor close to his ability. He can change speed and accelerate to space and separation.

As mentioned, you are not picking someone perfect at 7th, you can choose between elite quickness vs elite wingspan/size vs raw. Someone like DeRozan who has average wingspan of SG, but below average quickness of SG, which also leads to bad defense (couldn't chase off screens). Like me, you can believe in someone raw (eg. Kai Jones, Garuba, etc.), but mental aspect is also not something easy to be changed (eg. Powell on his passing vision).

I have no problem drafting Mitchell as a PG, but we already have a starting PG, and you don't draft a backup at the 7th pick. That means you're drafting him to be your starting SG, which is fine at the college level, but when you're talking about guarding NBA caliber SG its a different story. Does anyone have stats on how Lowry or Fred (I assume it was Lowry though) did guarding top 15 NBA shooting guards? I have memories of Beal, Jaylen, and Harden torching our backcourt from last season, but that's anecdotal.
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Re: Draft Thread Part 4 

Post#1467 » by tecumseh18 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:58 pm

Indeed wrote:
Mark_83 wrote:
Norman Powell played 4 years at UCLA. He was considered one of the best peremiter defenders in the NCAA when he was drafted (was often compared to Tony Allen, one of the best defenders in the NBA).

Has good defensive awareness … Great perimeter defender … Keeps defenders contained on an island … Has lateral quickness and uses his upper body well as a wall between his man and the basket … Very physical and uses his strength to get over screens … Has quick feet and can defend both guard positions … Has quick hands and digs at the ball while defending on the perimeter or in post (averaged 1.8 steals this past season) … Active defender off the ball (positions himself well and denies passing lanes) … Uses his 6-11 wingspan in the passing lanes, to effectively contest shots and defend at the rim …


Despite this scouting report, he's been a solid but not great on ball defender, and a below average team defender. No one can argue that Norm is low-IQ, but it's about instincts not effort. You can't just assume that defense will translate from the NCAA to the next level, especially when a guy is most known for harrassing on-ball coverage. There were many college "defensive stoppers" who never lived up to their billing in the NBA.


Who is the below average team defender you are referring to?


Norman Powell. That's the scouting report he's quoting.

Point being, you can be a four year graduate with a reputation as being a great defender, and still be crappy at it in the pros.

This whole conversation is tiresome. Raps want to get bigger. Nurse has talked about it. Unless Raps are trading Fred for a major asset (Myles Turner, say), we're not drafting a Mitchell whose wingspan is half a foot less than Donovan's. We're not using our FRP to draft a small PG two years in a row. Find a new angle.
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Re: Draft Thread Part 4 

Post#1468 » by Mark_83 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:58 pm

Indeed wrote:
Mark_83 wrote:
VanWest82 wrote:Davion always took the hardest perimeter assignment which was often a wing. If he's guarding wings in the NBA it'll just be more of the same of what he did in college. His defensive fit would be the least of the issues.

The average height of a college SG is 6'3. The average height of a college SF is 6'5. That's hardly "just more of the same" in the NBA, and we're not even talking about the difference in skill level yet.

https://www.athleticscholarships.net/basketballscholarships.htm

VanWest82 wrote:I disagree that we don't know much about his defensive IQ. The nice thing about Mitchell playing three years is there's lots of tape. He's way up there making reads as an off ball defender.

Norman Powell played 4 years at UCLA. He was considered one of the best peremiter defenders in the NCAA when he was drafted (was often compared to Tony Allen, one of the best defenders in the NBA).

Has good defensive awareness … Great perimeter defender … Keeps defenders contained on an island … Has lateral quickness and uses his upper body well as a wall between his man and the basket … Very physical and uses his strength to get over screens … Has quick feet and can defend both guard positions … Has quick hands and digs at the ball while defending on the perimeter or in post (averaged 1.8 steals this past season) … Active defender off the ball (positions himself well and denies passing lanes) … Uses his 6-11 wingspan in the passing lanes, to effectively contest shots and defend at the rim …


Despite this scouting report, he's been a solid but not great on ball defender, and a below average team defender. No one can argue that Norm is low-IQ, but it's about instincts not effort. You can't just assume that defense will translate from the NCAA to the next level, especially when a guy is most known for harrassing on-ball coverage. There were many college "defensive stoppers" who never lived up to their billing in the NBA.


Who is the below average team defender you are referring to?
From the scouting report, Davion is a very good team defender. He is at the right position at the right time for the charge.

His problem is more on the offense, as question about his shooting being real, and his lack of advanced ball handling and playmaking need improvement. Defense is not a problem, not even playing with VanVleet, as both of them should able to guard 1 - 2. Davion will have advantage in guarding quicker players as well.

Norm.
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Re: Draft Thread Part 4 

Post#1469 » by OAKLEY_2 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:23 pm

Saciid11 wrote:
filsor wrote:
Saciid11 wrote:Man watching Donovan Mitchell warms me up to the idea Raptors drafting Davion Mitchell. I just don't see anyone outside of Cade and Mobley being much better pro then Davion Mitchell. Suggs is great, but is he really that much better .. especially the way Mitchell defends. Green is all about offensive out put, but the guy right is Zack Lavine ... a guy who has potential to great scorer, but can't defend. Kuminga is all about potential and those type of players usual have high bust potential too. At least with Davion is floor is bull dog lock down defender like Smart, but his ceiling is Donovan Mitchell...


If the Raptors are drafting 7 or 8 and Davion Mitchell is there, if its me, Im taking him.


Same here man, but I would even go as far as thinking about taking him over Suggs, Green and Kuminga. If we end up #1 then the obvious choice is Cade, #2 the obvious choice is Mobley ... after that there is no obvious choice, so taking Mitchell is not a reach. I just don't see what makes Suggs so much better, and Green to me screams one dimensional athletic scorer who can't defend or will have interest to defend. Kuminga all about potential and guys like him come with high risk bust potential too ...besides we already have OG.


Me too.
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Re: Draft Thread Part 4 

Post#1470 » by Indeed » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:28 pm

Mark_83 wrote:
Indeed wrote:
Mark_83 wrote:Drafting is about risk assessment. You have to decide which risks your comfortable taking, what can be improved, etc. You can't improve measurements so you have to make sure the rewards are greater than the risk.


Davion has elite quickness, where others cannot learn nor close to his ability. He can change speed and accelerate to space and separation.

As mentioned, you are not picking someone perfect at 7th, you can choose between elite quickness vs elite wingspan/size vs raw. Someone like DeRozan who has average wingspan of SG, but below average quickness of SG, which also leads to bad defense (couldn't chase off screens). Like me, you can believe in someone raw (eg. Kai Jones, Garuba, etc.), but mental aspect is also not something easy to be changed (eg. Powell on his passing vision).

I have no problem drafting Mitchell as a PG, but we already have a starting PG, and you don't draft a backup at the 7th pick. That means you're drafting him to be your starting SG, which is fine at the college level, but when you're talking about guarding NBA caliber SG its a different story. Does anyone have stats on how Lowry or Fred (I assume it was Lowry though) did guarding top 15 NBA shooting guards? I have memories of Beal, Jaylen, and Harden torching our backcourt from last season, but that's anecdotal.


We didn't get torch by Beal, Jaylen, Harden due to our backcourt.

You are not often seeing isolation (except Harden, I guess), and what torch us has been PnR. And just to remind you how we lost to Boston a year ago, it was Walker who torched our Cs on switch, and our lack of offense has been a problem.

If you think NBA offense is about direct matchup, I guess you are pretty outdated. It is not because we have an undersized SG, and their SG would have scored against him directly. 50% of NBA offense is through PnR, and regardless of being undersized, it has largely impacted by the bigs defense than your guards.
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Re: Draft Thread Part 4 

Post#1471 » by gojoorange » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:38 pm

Saciid11 wrote:
gojoorange wrote:
Saciid11 wrote:
He definitely project to be better pro then Dunn, just eye test alone says Mitchell has tools to offensively and translate to NBA.


My eyes were playing tricks on me then because Dunn was a beast at Providence.

It's hard to ignore the statistical similarities between them. Even the junior year shooting outlier is the same. Davion's had a higher percentage for an outlier season so maybe it's legit. I think players like Luka and OG have shown that it's possible to be a good 3 point shooter while not being the best free throw shooter. It's rare though. Makes me wonder if all Kris Dunn needed was a better development program when he first came into the league.


I remember Dunn being seen as big point guard with elite defensive potential, I don't remember Dunn ever possessing the quickness, elite first step, hesitation move Davion Mitchell has shown this year. I also don't remember Dunn being horrible shooter at college level, Mitchell on the other hand has shown tremendous improvements shooting the 3's going from .290 to .445 this year.

Again best comparison is Donovan Mitchell ..


Time to throw it back.



A lot of people are making the Donovan comp but they are really different players.
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Re: Draft Thread Part 4 

Post#1472 » by Indeed » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:39 pm

tecumseh18 wrote:
Indeed wrote:
Mark_83 wrote:
Norman Powell played 4 years at UCLA. He was considered one of the best peremiter defenders in the NCAA when he was drafted (was often compared to Tony Allen, one of the best defenders in the NBA).



Despite this scouting report, he's been a solid but not great on ball defender, and a below average team defender. No one can argue that Norm is low-IQ, but it's about instincts not effort. You can't just assume that defense will translate from the NCAA to the next level, especially when a guy is most known for harrassing on-ball coverage. There were many college "defensive stoppers" who never lived up to their billing in the NBA.


Who is the below average team defender you are referring to?


Norman Powell. That's the scouting report he's quoting.

Point being, you can be a four year graduate with a reputation as being a great defender, and still be crappy at it in the pros.

This whole conversation is tiresome. Raps want to get bigger. Nurse has talked about it. Unless Raps are trading Fred for a major asset (Myles Turner, say), we're not drafting a Mitchell whose wingspan is half a foot less than Donovan's. We're not using our FRP to draft a small PG two years in a row. Find a new angle.


Again, I have Kai Jones as my pick, but I have to disagree that we will not draft a PG (Davion is not small, he is measured at average).

I think the biggest thing we need is to have someone who can create off the dribble, furthermore, if someone who can make a pass after they create (playmaker), that would greatly help our offense regardless of position.

Meanwhile, I never compare Davion to Donovan. I see him more a Kemba Walker with better defense.
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Re: Draft Thread Part 4 

Post#1473 » by tecumseh18 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:41 pm

Indeed wrote:
Mark_83 wrote:I have no problem drafting Mitchell as a PG, but we already have a starting PG, and you don't draft a backup at the 7th pick. That means you're drafting him to be your starting SG, which is fine at the college level, but when you're talking about guarding NBA caliber SG its a different story. Does anyone have stats on how Lowry or Fred (I assume it was Lowry though) did guarding top 15 NBA shooting guards? I have memories of Beal, Jaylen, and Harden torching our backcourt from last season, but that's anecdotal.


We didn't get torch by Beal, Jaylen, Harden due to our backcourt.

You are not often seeing isolation (except Harden, I guess), and what torch us has been PnR. And just to remind you how we lost to Boston a year ago, it was Walker who torched our Cs on switch, and our lack of offense has been a problem.

If you think NBA offense is about direct matchup, I guess you are pretty outdated. It is not because we have an undersized SG, and their SG would have scored against him directly. 50% of NBA offense is through PnR, and regardless of being undersized, it has largely impacted by the bigs defense than your guards.


Pick and roll? Man, it's like the source for a huge chunk of the offence in today's league (including more than half of the Jazz's points last night) doesn't matter anymore.

Here's a hint - Raptors give a LOT of them last year. Seeing our tiny backcourt on defence unsuccessfully attempt to scramble out to the arc last year was sickening.
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Re: Draft Thread Part 4 

Post#1474 » by mademan » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:43 pm

Im not saying we should draft Mitchell, but FVV should not be the impediment to drafting him. If you think he's the best, you take him. FVV is a solid above average starting level guard, but if you think Mitchell has star potential/Lowry like potential, you dont let FVV stop you from taking him. Id be surprised if FVV ends his contract with the Raps as is
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Re: Draft Thread Part 4 

Post#1475 » by Indeed » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:55 pm

tecumseh18 wrote:
Indeed wrote:
Mark_83 wrote:I have no problem drafting Mitchell as a PG, but we already have a starting PG, and you don't draft a backup at the 7th pick. That means you're drafting him to be your starting SG, which is fine at the college level, but when you're talking about guarding NBA caliber SG its a different story. Does anyone have stats on how Lowry or Fred (I assume it was Lowry though) did guarding top 15 NBA shooting guards? I have memories of Beal, Jaylen, and Harden torching our backcourt from last season, but that's anecdotal.


We didn't get torch by Beal, Jaylen, Harden due to our backcourt.

You are not often seeing isolation (except Harden, I guess), and what torch us has been PnR. And just to remind you how we lost to Boston a year ago, it was Walker who torched our Cs on switch, and our lack of offense has been a problem.

If you think NBA offense is about direct matchup, I guess you are pretty outdated. It is not because we have an undersized SG, and their SG would have scored against him directly. 50% of NBA offense is through PnR, and regardless of being undersized, it has largely impacted by the bigs defense than your guards.


Pick and roll? Man, it's like the source for a huge chunk of the offence in today's league (including more than half of the Jazz's points last night) doesn't matter anymore.

Here's a hint - Raptors give a LOT of them last year. Seeing our tiny backcourt on defence unsuccessfully attempt to scramble out to the arc last year was sickening.


Why not look at the prior year when we have Gasol and Ibaka?
The backcourt isn't the biggest issue as everyone know, our C was the biggest issue. Removing Baynes has been a positive.
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Re: Draft Thread Part 4 

Post#1476 » by Psubs » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:57 pm

I think shooting 3's over FVV and Lowry was easy to do.
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Re: Draft Thread Part 4 

Post#1477 » by Mark_83 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:02 pm

Indeed wrote:
Mark_83 wrote:
Indeed wrote:
Davion has elite quickness, where others cannot learn nor close to his ability. He can change speed and accelerate to space and separation.

As mentioned, you are not picking someone perfect at 7th, you can choose between elite quickness vs elite wingspan/size vs raw. Someone like DeRozan who has average wingspan of SG, but below average quickness of SG, which also leads to bad defense (couldn't chase off screens). Like me, you can believe in someone raw (eg. Kai Jones, Garuba, etc.), but mental aspect is also not something easy to be changed (eg. Powell on his passing vision).

I have no problem drafting Mitchell as a PG, but we already have a starting PG, and you don't draft a backup at the 7th pick. That means you're drafting him to be your starting SG, which is fine at the college level, but when you're talking about guarding NBA caliber SG its a different story. Does anyone have stats on how Lowry or Fred (I assume it was Lowry though) did guarding top 15 NBA shooting guards? I have memories of Beal, Jaylen, and Harden torching our backcourt from last season, but that's anecdotal.


We didn't get torch by Beal, Jaylen, Harden due to our backcourt.

You are not often seeing isolation (except Harden, I guess), and what torch us has been PnR. And just to remind you how we lost to Boston a year ago, it was Walker who torched our Cs on switch, and our lack of offense has been a problem.

If you think NBA offense is about direct matchup, I guess you are pretty outdated. It is not because we have an undersized SG, and their SG would have scored against him directly. 50% of NBA offense is through PnR, and regardless of being undersized, it has largely impacted by the bigs defense than your guards.

That's precisely my point.

I stated two concerns:

1) Mitchell's size in a 1-on-1 matchup against SG and SF.
2) Projecting defense in a team structure, rather than on the ball/man-to-man.

If as you say, NBA defense is not about direct matchups then my second point is even more relevant. I could care less if a guy can hound his man on the ball if these matchups are rarely going to occur in the NBA, and the skill becomes less important.

We will have no idea how a guy will adapt to NBA defensive schemes until we see him in it. Ideally you'd want to run him through a few plays in workouts to see how they pickup concepts, but we can only learn so much watching college games, especially since Baylor plays a no-middle defense, and not a typical NBA-style switching defense.

I don't agree that NBA defense does not have direct matchups. Obviously plays break down and that's why team defense and switching matters. But offensive teams definitely target mismatches (particularly in size) to run iso plays on guys. That's not outdated, that's fact.
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Re: Draft Thread Part 4 

Post#1478 » by billy_hoyle » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:21 pm

From a team building perspective, we are hoping to:

1. Win the lottery and draft Cade
2. Have the Cavs win the 2nd pick and draft Mobley.

Will the Cavs match a big RFA offer sheet on Allen if they have Mobley? Wouldn't they be better off spending their money on Collins, Markkanen etc?

FVV, Flynn
Cade, GTJ
OG,
Siakam, Boucher
Allen

That's an awesome looking team IMO.

Might contend quickly
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Re: Draft Thread Part 4 

Post#1479 » by WuTang_OG » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:32 pm

billy_hoyle wrote:From a team building perspective, we are hoping to:

1. Win the lottery and draft Cade
2. Have the Cavs win the 2nd pick and draft Mobley.

Will the Cavs match a big RFA offer sheet on Allen if they have Mobley? Wouldn't they be better off spending their money on Collins, Markkanen etc?

FVV, Flynn
Cade, GTJ
OG,
Siakam, Boucher
Allen

That's an awesome looking team IMO.

Might contend quickly



Getting in the top 4 is a home run scenario for us not just winning #1

This team with one of Green or Suggs will do wonders for us as well. We desperetely need talented scorers to help with end of game execution (as we saw this past season). FVV and Siakam arent going anywhere trade wise but they also cant do it alone. OG will keep improving but we desperetely need one of Cade, Suggs, Green.
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Re: Draft Thread Part 4 

Post#1480 » by Indeed » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:40 pm

Mark_83 wrote:
Indeed wrote:
Mark_83 wrote:I have no problem drafting Mitchell as a PG, but we already have a starting PG, and you don't draft a backup at the 7th pick. That means you're drafting him to be your starting SG, which is fine at the college level, but when you're talking about guarding NBA caliber SG its a different story. Does anyone have stats on how Lowry or Fred (I assume it was Lowry though) did guarding top 15 NBA shooting guards? I have memories of Beal, Jaylen, and Harden torching our backcourt from last season, but that's anecdotal.


We didn't get torch by Beal, Jaylen, Harden due to our backcourt.

You are not often seeing isolation (except Harden, I guess), and what torch us has been PnR. And just to remind you how we lost to Boston a year ago, it was Walker who torched our Cs on switch, and our lack of offense has been a problem.

If you think NBA offense is about direct matchup, I guess you are pretty outdated. It is not because we have an undersized SG, and their SG would have scored against him directly. 50% of NBA offense is through PnR, and regardless of being undersized, it has largely impacted by the bigs defense than your guards.

That's precisely my point.

I stated two concerns:

1) Mitchell's size in a 1-on-1 matchup against SG and SF.
2) Projecting defense in a team structure, rather than on the ball/man-to-man.

If as you say, NBA defense is not about direct matchups then my second point is even more relevant. I could care less if a guy can hound his man on the ball if these matchups are rarely going to occur in the NBA, and the skill becomes less important.

We will have no idea how a guy will adapt to NBA defensive schemes until we see him in it. Ideally you'd want to run him through a few plays in workouts to see how they pickup concepts, but we can only learn so much watching college games, especially since Baylor plays a no-middle defense, and not a typical NBA-style switching defense.

I don't agree that NBA defense does not have direct matchups. Obviously plays break down and that's why team defense and switching matters. But offensive teams definitely target mismatches (particularly in size) to run iso plays on guys. That's not outdated, that's fact.


The "No-Middle" defense has a lot of similarity to our defense, you can watch this to see how similar it is, particularly scrambling out to contest 3s:


Meanwhile, if you worry about matchup, your PG being small already created a matchup problem anyway. Meanwhile, Davion would be enough to guard 1 - 2 and small 3. Even Keon Johnson, James Bouknight or Moody, they are not necessarily able to guard big 3s, so I don't see why you think other prospects are better.

I just don't see how you claim Davion can't guard 2s, all the videos are proving him that he can guard 2s and some 3s.

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