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Rank these former Raptors from most deserving to least deserving of their Jersey being retired?

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Re: Rank these former Raptors from most deserving to least deserving of their Jersey being retired? 

Post#61 » by Tacoma » Mon Jun 7, 2021 4:09 pm

PerfectJab wrote:
dagger wrote:Vince and DeMar. Vince put us on the map, and I still think his 48 point playoff game against the Sixers was the single greatest playoff performance of a Raptor to date. Demar, because he was a multi-year all-star who was critical to our rise to perennial playoff status. I wouldn't let anyone wear #2 for a long time, but I wouldn't retire it. I am inclined not to retire #4, but when he gets into the Hall of Fame, if he gives the Raptors their due for developing him, I might reconsider.


I've never understood what the heck this meant. People spew statements, begging the question, without knowing what they are saying assuming it is true based on its frequency of use.

When he left the franchise was in shambles and we were a losing team during and after his tenure. Did he help cement the roadmap of Toronto losing? Is that what putting Toronto on the basketball map means?

Is it due to US media exposure? Additional US media exposure validates a team and puts them on the map? If it is, I don't know why this would make anyone or any team feel validated not to mention this very exposure went away after he left. So putting a team on a map is temporary?

Did VC help with recruitment? Free agents were not flocking to the city during and after his departure.

How exactly did he put one of the largest cities in North America that is a proven sports city on the map? Were people unaware of that a team named the Toronto Raptor's existed despite seeing them in the standings and facing them as an opponent?


When you say "When he left the franchise was in shambles," are you talking about Stoudamire, Bosh, Vince or someone else? The team was in shambles because Raptors management was a shamble, Babcock in particular. If Vince was drafted with Masai at the helm, it would've been a whole different story. You can't blame any player of that era for Raptors gross mismanagement.

It's hard to prove whether anyone helped with recruitment, but reports back then did indicate Vince tried to recruit other players but it was even more difficult than today because no one really knew about Toronto other than it was cold and not American. Here's one report saying Vince tried to recruit Shaq (here).

Re putting Tor on the map, I think what it really means is Vince raised the profile of the team and the city to Americans who hadn't a clue (i.e., most of them). Such as: Vince was on ESPN almost weekly; rap stars were wearing Vince's Raptors jersey; we had a rare Christmas Day game; Vince's annual summer charity basketball tournament int TO was televised, etc.
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Re: Rank these former Raptors from most deserving to least deserving of their Jersey being retired? 

Post#62 » by PerfectJab » Mon Jun 7, 2021 5:48 pm

Tacoma wrote:
PerfectJab wrote:
dagger wrote:Vince and DeMar. Vince put us on the map, and I still think his 48 point playoff game against the Sixers was the single greatest playoff performance of a Raptor to date. Demar, because he was a multi-year all-star who was critical to our rise to perennial playoff status. I wouldn't let anyone wear #2 for a long time, but I wouldn't retire it. I am inclined not to retire #4, but when he gets into the Hall of Fame, if he gives the Raptors their due for developing him, I might reconsider.


I've never understood what the heck this meant. People spew statements, begging the question, without knowing what they are saying assuming it is true based on its frequency of use.

When he left the franchise was in shambles and we were a losing team during and after his tenure. Did he help cement the roadmap of Toronto losing? Is that what putting Toronto on the basketball map means?

Is it due to US media exposure? Additional US media exposure validates a team and puts them on the map? If it is, I don't know why this would make anyone or any team feel validated not to mention this very exposure went away after he left. So putting a team on a map is temporary?

Did VC help with recruitment? Free agents were not flocking to the city during and after his departure.

How exactly did he put one of the largest cities in North America that is a proven sports city on the map? Were people unaware of that a team named the Toronto Raptor's existed despite seeing them in the standings and facing them as an opponent?


When you say "When he left the franchise was in shambles," are you talking about Stoudamire, Bosh, Vince or someone else? The team was in shambles because Raptors management was a shamble, Babcock in particular. If Vince was drafted with Masai at the helm, it would've been a whole different story. You can't blame any player of that era for Raptors gross mismanagement.


Don't want to get into a pointless debate about semantics but the team was no better during or after his tenure so he had minimal impact creating a winning culture. You can be good but not a winner which is pretty much what Carter was his entire career.
Ironically ths narrative fit in well with what the Raptor's were at the time, pea's in a pod, but the Raptor's are no longer that which is why I've never understood people overrating that era and his impact. The management was bad, but he did nothing but exacerbate the issues which makes sense because he WAS part of the problem.

It's hard to prove whether anyone helped with recruitment, but reports back then did indicate Vince tried to recruit other players but it was even more difficult than today because no one really knew about Toronto other than it was cold and not American. Here's one report saying Vince tried to recruit Shaq (here).


So he tried and it didn't work, doesn't sound like putting Toronto on the map to me. Try putting prime James or Jordan here and see if they'd have a better chance.

Re putting Tor on the map, I think what it really means is Vince raised the profile of the team and the city to Americans who hadn't a clue (i.e., most of them). Such as: Vince was on ESPN almost weekly; rap stars were wearing Vince's Raptors jersey; we had a rare Christmas Day game; Vince's annual summer charity basketball tournament int TO was televised, etc.

This is what irks me. So he raised the profile of himself because fans wanted to see him dunk, not the city, which is consistent with how fans and players alike continued to view the city after. If anything Masai, Lowry and Derozan put Toronto on the map as they made Toronto a destination people would be willing to play. They created an environment conducive to winning. They set the groundwork for the future based on the waves that they've created.
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Re: Rank these former Raptors from most deserving to least deserving of their Jersey being retired? 

Post#64 » by kalel123 » Mon Jun 7, 2021 8:02 pm

Kawhi and maybe DeMar.

To me, you'd either have had accomplished at least one singularly great achievement for the team or it's a lifetime achievement, meaning you had to have been with the team long enough and had good, consistent success for a lot of those years.

Only Kawhi and DeMar (somewhat) fits the bill. Lowry fits both, which is why he should be the first.

The rest are irrelevant in terms of jersey retirement.
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Re: Rank these former Raptors from most deserving to least deserving of their Jersey being retired? 

Post#65 » by OakleyDokely » Mon Jun 7, 2021 8:22 pm

Vince is going to the hall of fame and he will be mostly remembered as a Raptor, which is why there will be a strong push to retire his number. If Vince went on to win a title in NJ, the narrative changes, but he spent the rest of his career as a journeyman with no real connection to another city.
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Re: Rank these former Raptors from most deserving to least deserving of their Jersey being retired? 

Post#66 » by ForeverTFC » Mon Jun 7, 2021 8:35 pm

Only VC has a case on this list.

Lowry's jersey will represent the WeTheNorth era and the championship. That knocks out the case for Demar/Kawhi.

Bosh achieved nothing and wasn't even that loved by the city. There is no case to be made.
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Re: Rank these former Raptors from most deserving to least deserving of their Jersey being retired? 

Post#67 » by OakleyDokely » Mon Jun 7, 2021 8:37 pm

What I'd do:

Lowry - Statue and Banner
Masai - Banner
Kawhi - Statue (of the shot)
Vince - Statue (of the dunk)
DeMar - Honor him somehow, but no banner.
Bosh - Tribute during commercial break.
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Re: Rank these former Raptors from most deserving to least deserving of their Jersey being retired? 

Post#68 » by ConSarnit » Mon Jun 7, 2021 8:41 pm

If you're saying yes to Demar are you also saying yes to Casey? They shared a lot of similar success.

I don't want to set a precedent of "above average" success as the qualifier for the Raptors Hall of Fame. Guys who are traded in their prime and effectively forgotten about by the league (Demar) don't pass the test for me.
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Re: Rank these former Raptors from most deserving to least deserving of their Jersey being retired? 

Post#69 » by NUCKER101 » Mon Jun 7, 2021 8:46 pm

My default stance for sports jersey retirements is usually if they're a HOF'er and spent a large majority of their prime years for that franchise.

So basically Lowry.

Vince left when he was still only 28 I believe and left on bad terms so I don't think he'd make the cut using those guidelines. DeMar's not going to the HOF, Bosh is most remembered for his Miami days. Kawhi is kind of like Durant, both will be remembered as all time greats but they won't really have a deep connection with any fanbase.

Probably make an exception for Kawhi had he returned for 2-3 more years, even without winning another title, or had he just returned for one more year and got back to the finals again.
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Re: Rank these former Raptors from most deserving to least deserving of their Jersey being retired? 

Post#70 » by kalel123 » Mon Jun 7, 2021 9:06 pm

OakleyDokely wrote:Vince is going to the hall of fame and he will be mostly remembered as a Raptor, which is why there will be a strong push to retire his number. If Vince went on to win a title in NJ, the narrative changes, but he spent the rest of his career as a journeyman with no real connection to another city.


The problem is what did he actually do for the Raptors that's worthy of jersey retirement? All of the good he did for the Raptors, peaking at dunk contest and second round exit, don't really amount to much when all's said and done and all of it's cancelled out by the bad even if you believe the revisionist history. What happened still happened.

A lot of other stuff people say he did, even if you agree with them (and I don't), is actually an argument for him to be considered for Canadian Basketball Hall of Fame but not for his jersey to be retired as a Raptor because those things mean nothing to this team.

Also the biggest thing with him going to HOF will be that he fizzled out as a journey man then lasted as long as he did with so many other teams. So again, that's not really Raptors related.

Just because we have shorter history than most teams in the league doesn't mean we should retire just anyone's jersey.
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Re: Rank these former Raptors from most deserving to least deserving of their Jersey being retired? 

Post#71 » by PerfectJab » Mon Jun 7, 2021 9:07 pm

NUCKER101 wrote:My default stance for sports jersey retirements is usually if they're a HOF'er and spent a large majority of their prime years for that franchise.

So basically Lowry.

Vince left when he was still only 28 I believe and left on bad terms so I don't think he'd make the cut using those guidelines. DeMar's not going to the HOF, Bosh is most remembered for his Miami days. Kawhi is kind of like Durant, both will be remembered as all time greats but they won't really have a deep connection with any fanbase.

Probably make an exception for Kawhi had he returned for 2-3 more years, even without winning another title, or had he just returned for one more year and got back to the finals again.


It's right in front of us and common sense but never really thought of their legacy from a high level like this. You are absolutely right and it's unfortunate as I can't remember the last time there was a player as impactful as these two that you couldn't, for the most part, associate with one team.
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Re: Rank these former Raptors from most deserving to least deserving of their Jersey being retired? 

Post#72 » by 6ixpessant » Tue Jun 8, 2021 1:32 pm

1) Carter - This goes beyond what he did for the Raptors, his impact on basketball in Canada is undeniable 2) No one else on the list.

Then obviously Lowry once he hangs them up.
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Re: Rank these former Raptors from most deserving to least deserving of their Jersey being retired? 

Post#73 » by Mikistan » Tue Jun 8, 2021 2:04 pm

Cael wrote:
Parataxis wrote:None of them. But if I had to choose

Demar, Vince, Bosh, Kawhi.

Loyalty matters, tenure matters.


Facts only.


Winning matters.
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Re: Rank these former Raptors from most deserving to least deserving of their Jersey being retired? 

Post#74 » by DangerZone13 » Tue Jun 8, 2021 2:50 pm

I've gotta agree with hanging up #10 beside #7. I'd bet that Demar signs back for even a 1 game deal to retire a Raptor, as Lowry had said he will do. Demar did a lot for this team, and sacrificing him got us the merc we needed. Hanging his jersey shows appreciation for the love, dedication, and team culture he helped instill. His work ethic is surely still a gold standard around the facility. Demar may not have gotten a ring for all that, but this is the next best thing; hanging with his best friend in the rafters forever.

I agree, Vince did get a lot of eyes on the Raptors, and helped make the team "cool", aiding to wash off some of that "Toronto Barney's" stink. But as seen above with guys like Big Z getting his number retired by the Cavs, it's just as much about loyalty. I'll hang VC's jersey on my wall, but I'd think about hanging 15 from the rafters
for Amir Johnson just as much given how VC left, and never did much to try to repair that damage.

Kawhi, despite being my favourite player since the Spurs' championship year, 1 year on a team doesn't make you eligible in my book. Doubtful the Spurs retire his number. Hopefully for him he can cement a good legacy in LA, otherwise he will become one of those forgotten stars without a team.

Bosh...you're buried, dude.
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Re: Rank these former Raptors from most deserving to least deserving of their Jersey being retired? 

Post#75 » by Kingsway_fan » Wed Jun 9, 2021 9:24 am

Mikistan wrote:
Cael wrote:
Parataxis wrote:None of them. But if I had to choose

Demar, Vince, Bosh, Kawhi.

Loyalty matters, tenure matters.


Facts only.


Winning matters.


Then Barkley, Malone, Stockton, and several HOF players shouldn't be there... .. totally flawed logic....

Vince dominated with g league scrubs as teammates and the worst management and coaches in the NBA...

Switch prime vc on any of the Masai teams and we are finals bound each year with several championships... switch Lowry, or demar on those vc teams and they would have been perennial lottery teams... QED.
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Re: Rank these former Raptors from most deserving to least deserving of their Jersey being retired? 

Post#76 » by Mascot » Wed Jun 9, 2021 10:41 am

none of them
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Re: Rank these former Raptors from most deserving to least deserving of their Jersey being retired? 

Post#77 » by ThatClockWork » Wed Jun 9, 2021 10:55 am

Demar and Bosh do not belong in this conversation at all.
Jury is out on Kawhi because of the ring. It's probably a yes.
Vince should have his jersey retired here.
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Re: Rank these former Raptors from most deserving to least deserving of their Jersey being retired? 

Post#78 » by Tofubeque » Wed Jun 9, 2021 12:15 pm

kalel123 wrote:
OakleyDokely wrote:Vince is going to the hall of fame and he will be mostly remembered as a Raptor, which is why there will be a strong push to retire his number. If Vince went on to win a title in NJ, the narrative changes, but he spent the rest of his career as a journeyman with no real connection to another city.


The problem is what did he actually do for the Raptors that's worthy of jersey retirement? All of the good he did for the Raptors, peaking at dunk contest and second round exit, don't really amount to much when all's said and done and all of it's cancelled out by the bad even if you believe the revisionist history. What happened still happened.


Dominique Wilkins peaked at the dunk contest and 2nd round exits, there was zero question the Hawks would retire his jersey. Granted he had a longer tenure than Vince, but cultural impact matters. They've also retired Maravich and Mutombo's jerseys after only 4-5 year stints with them, and that's 2 of the 5 player numbers retired from 50+ years in Atlanta.

A lot of other stuff people say he did, even if you agree with them (and I don't), is actually an argument for him to be considered for Canadian Basketball Hall of Fame but not for his jersey to be retired as a Raptor because those things mean nothing to this team.

Also the biggest thing with him going to HOF will be that he fizzled out as a journey man then lasted as long as he did with so many other teams. So again, that's not really Raptors related.

Just because we have shorter history than most teams in the league doesn't mean we should retire just anyone's jersey.


Canadian Basketball means nothing to the Raptors? Look, I get thinking the red and white "Canada's team" branding ushered in during Colangelo's time is tacky, but our head coach is the head coach of Canada Basketball for a reason. We've had several Canadians develop on the team just in the past couple years, and it's probably only a matter of time before one of the several Canadian stars in the league, directly influenced by Vince, ends up in a Raptors jersey.

Anyway nobody is saying we should retire "just anyone's" jersey. IMO it should be Lowry, then Vince, then that's it.
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Re: Rank these former Raptors from most deserving to least deserving of their Jersey being retired? 

Post#79 » by MonkBatter42 » Wed Jun 9, 2021 4:32 pm

LOL no team retires the jersey of someone who played a single season with them, despite the ultimate success that was achieved. When Demar ends up retiring, the Raps will retire his jersey. That's all I see realistically happening. From a personal standpoint, I have a soft spot for Vince, and would like to see his jersey retired, but I'm not sure if that's in the franchise's plans.
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Re: Rank these former Raptors from most deserving to least deserving of their Jersey being retired? 

Post#80 » by refshateRaps » Wed Jun 9, 2021 4:41 pm

D.Brasco wrote:Vince Carter, Chris Bosh, Demar Derozen and Kawhi Leonard.


Really dont think any of them should have their jersey retired as a Raptor (outside of Lowry)

But rank:

1. Vince - Lit the City on fire and put us on the map with electricity
2. Leonard - came thru on the biggest stage for the franchises biggest moment

....
3. Demar - dedication




......
4. Bosh - if we have to rank him
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