ImageImageImageImageImage

Marc Stein: Toronto has expressed interest in Ben Simmons

Moderators: Alfred, 7 Footer, Reeko, lebron stopper, niQ, Morris_Shatford, DG88, gojoorange

User avatar
vini_vidi_vici
RealGM
Posts: 14,940
And1: 15,914
Joined: Jun 29, 2006
 

Re: Marc Stein: Toronto has expressed interest in Ben Simmons 

Post#1901 » by vini_vidi_vici » Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:03 pm

ruckus wrote:
vini_vidi_vici wrote:
God Squad wrote:Never forget. Did we all forget that our own team used to come up short in the 4th of games all the time?
For all his in season "performances" is he really worth the max? Me thinks not
Image


For the entire POs, 4th Qs...

Image
Image

I cant imagine dealing with that.


To play the devils advocate, how did Ben fare in 18-19? Could it be a case of Doc being Doc and not utilizing Ben properly?


Image
Image

So he took 14 more shots in 1 more game, and 18 fewer FTs.

So not really a substantial difference. Again, hes only shooting at the rim.
Image
iDRTG is terrible.
User avatar
NinjaBro
RealGM
Posts: 22,908
And1: 38,098
Joined: Aug 21, 2014
Location: Shamblesland
 

Re: Marc Stein: Toronto has expressed interest in Ben Simmons 

Post#1902 » by NinjaBro » Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:26 pm

C_Money wrote:Normally I would want this thread locked but the forum is so dead right now we should probably keep it open lol.



Lots of users in this forum are fapping because he's 6'10 and a defensive beast. Until they get to see him play and realize that he's unplayable when the game is on the line and won't take any shots. Simmons will panac when he touches the ball and won't know what to do with it and will give it up to Isaac Bonga camping out in the corner for a corner 3 with the game on the line. We'd be begging to have FVV back and reminiscence of the good old days when FVV would actually attack the rim on a drive and get blocked. :lol: Highly more preferable to Simmons in full blown panac and has to give the ball away.
planetmars
Rookie
Posts: 1,222
And1: 952
Joined: Jun 15, 2018

Re: Marc Stein: Toronto has expressed interest in Ben Simmons 

Post#1903 » by planetmars » Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:47 pm

vini_vidi_vici wrote:
ruckus wrote:
vini_vidi_vici wrote:
For the entire POs, 4th Qs...

Image
Image

I cant imagine dealing with that.


To play the devils advocate, how did Ben fare in 18-19? Could it be a case of Doc being Doc and not utilizing Ben properly?


Image
Image

So he took 14 more shots in 1 more game, and 18 fewer FTs.

So not really a substantial difference. Again, hes only shooting at the rim.


In fairness, Siakam for the first two rounds in 2019 (12 games) went 12-28 and 7-8 from the line in the 4th quarter.
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&CF=PLAYER_NAME*E*Siakam&DateFrom=04%2F13%2F2019&DateTo=05%2F12%2F2019&PerMode=Totals

17 were in the paint, 11 outside of the paint. He was 4-11 outside the paint, including 1-5 from 3.

He was a willing shooter, but going 4-11 was not an ideal outcome.

Image
User avatar
Syd-TK3
RealGM
Posts: 11,442
And1: 11,685
Joined: Jun 07, 2015
 

Re: Marc Stein: Toronto has expressed interest in Ben Simmons 

Post#1904 » by Syd-TK3 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:51 pm

vini_vidi_vici wrote:
God Squad wrote:Never forget. Did we all forget that our own team used to come up short in the 4th of games all the time?
For all his in season "performances" is he really worth the max? Me thinks not
Image


For the entire POs, 4th Qs...

Image
Image

I cant imagine dealing with that.

This is almost impossible to believe
Image
User avatar
vini_vidi_vici
RealGM
Posts: 14,940
And1: 15,914
Joined: Jun 29, 2006
 

Re: Marc Stein: Toronto has expressed interest in Ben Simmons 

Post#1905 » by vini_vidi_vici » Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:51 pm

planetmars wrote:In fairness, Siakam for the first two rounds in 2019 (12 games) went 12-28 and 7-8 from the line in the 4th quarter.
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&CF=PLAYER_NAME*E*Siakam&DateFrom=04%2F13%2F2019&DateTo=05%2F12%2F2019&PerMode=Totals

17 were in the paint, 11 outside of the paint. He was 4-11 outside the paint, including 1-5 from 3.

He was a willing shooter, but going 4-11 was not an ideal outcome.

Image


Image

7/28 were outside the paint, he shot 2/7 in less mins.

For comparison, Ben took 13 total shots outside the paint in 34 PO games and 1192 mins, and hes only shooting less as the yrs go on (11 FGAs in his first PO appearance, 10 f those from short MR).

Siakams USG was 25.1 (2nd on the team in that duration), so its not a matter of not getting his shots up either.

Ben had less USG (16.3) than JJ Reddick in 18-19, if thats not a problem from your primary ball handling creator (which Siakam wasnt, you could argue Kyle with ASTs+USG and obv Kawhi), I dont know what is.
Image
iDRTG is terrible.
Nebuchadnezzar
Junior
Posts: 308
And1: 371
Joined: Sep 20, 2010

Re: Marc Stein: Toronto has expressed interest in Ben Simmons 

Post#1906 » by Nebuchadnezzar » Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:05 pm

OakleyDokely wrote:
Jerry Lucas wrote:If there's any team that can fix Ben Simmons it's the Raptors but I still don't think it's likely in any case.
It doesn't appear that Simmons wants to be fixed. He is what he is at this point.


My question is whether or not he has actually had the opportunity to learn/be mentored etc. Sometimes it takes a change in leadership before someone becomes open to learning and growing. I would say we provide that opportunity.
planetmars
Rookie
Posts: 1,222
And1: 952
Joined: Jun 15, 2018

Re: Marc Stein: Toronto has expressed interest in Ben Simmons 

Post#1907 » by planetmars » Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:21 pm

vini_vidi_vici wrote:
planetmars wrote:In fairness, Siakam for the first two rounds in 2019 (12 games) went 12-28 and 7-8 from the line in the 4th quarter.
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&CF=PLAYER_NAME*E*Siakam&DateFrom=04%2F13%2F2019&DateTo=05%2F12%2F2019&PerMode=Totals

17 were in the paint, 11 outside of the paint. He was 4-11 outside the paint, including 1-5 from 3.

He was a willing shooter, but going 4-11 was not an ideal outcome.

Image


Image

7/28 were outside the paint, he shot 2/7 in less mins.

For comparison, Ben took 13 total shots outside the paint in 34 PO games and 1192 mins, and hes only shooting less as the yrs go on (11 FGAs in his first PO appearance, 10 f those from short MR).

Siakams USG was 25.1 (2nd on the team in that duration), so its not a matter of not getting his shots up either.

Ben had less USG (16.3) than JJ Reddick in 18-19, if thats not a problem from your primary ball handling creator (which Siakam wasnt, you could argue Kyle with ASTs+USG and obv Kawhi), I dont know what is.


Just to level set here.. I'm thinking Ben's problems were due to Doc more than anything last season. He didn't play in the bubble due to injury. The year prior, it felt like Jimmy had to have the ball and so Simmons took a back seat. With Embiid being the #1 option, it was just hard to get his usage up. Swap Gasol for Embiid and I bet Siakam's usage plummets as well in 2019.

And in 2018 he was still able to put up 14ppg in 10 games. He did take some shots (16% of the time on pull ups). Not many but he was trying.

It's all moot anyways. We've moved on. I just think that Ben get's a little too much flack and a lot of it has to do with how Doc handled things. Similar reason why PG was labeled Playoff P in the bubble, but then looked like a super star last season.
User avatar
LoveMyRaps
RealGM
Posts: 13,997
And1: 25,750
Joined: Jun 10, 2013
       

Re: Marc Stein: Toronto has expressed interest in Ben Simmons 

Post#1908 » by LoveMyRaps » Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:23 pm

Simmons is a great player but a terrible fit for this team.

He'd turn Portland into contenders though.
In Masai We Trust :meditate:
Image
Nebuchadnezzar
Junior
Posts: 308
And1: 371
Joined: Sep 20, 2010

Re: Marc Stein: Toronto has expressed interest in Ben Simmons 

Post#1909 » by Nebuchadnezzar » Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:40 pm

LoveMyRaps wrote:Simmons is a great player but a terrible fit for this team.

He'd turn Portland into contenders though.


Why do you think he is a terrible fit?
mihaic
Veteran
Posts: 2,801
And1: 1,415
Joined: Jul 05, 2006
   

Re: Marc Stein: Toronto has expressed interest in Ben Simmons 

Post#1910 » by mihaic » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:10 pm

NinjaBro wrote:
C_Money wrote:Normally I would want this thread locked but the forum is so dead right now we should probably keep it open lol.



Lots of users in this forum are fapping because he's 6'10 and a defensive beast. Until they get to see him play and realize that he's unplayable when the game is on the line and won't take any shots. Simmons will panac when he touches the ball and won't know what to do with it and will give it up to Isaac Bonga camping out in the corner for a corner 3 with the game on the line. We'd be begging to have FVV back and reminiscence of the good old days when FVV would actually attack the rim on a drive and get blocked. :lol: Highly more preferable to Simmons in full blown panac and has to give the ball away.


If Isaac Bonga is the one camping out in the corner for a corner 3 with the game on the line, it's on Nick Nurse or we are tanking again.

Speaking seriously, you can hide 1 guy like Simmons, like you I am also concerned with 2 as Pascal also needs to attack the basket to be efficient and tams will pack the paint with at least 2 guys at the minimum in there at all times.

Why I would still do it: for longterm asset acquisition. Get assets, buy low, try to sell high. If somehow Nick finds a way to reclaim him and integrate him in a system, you struck gold (whether keeping or trading him further). In any case it would be hard to play him competitively alongside Barnes Pascal and OG - only 3 of those should be on the floor...

The most I'd give for Ben is: 1 top-10 protected pick, 1 or 2 second rounders, Dragic's salary (veteran help for them), Boucher (help for playoffs or when Embiid is resting), and a lower tier prospect (David Johnson or what's his name). Maybe I would replace Boucher with GTJ but then I'd remove the pick and only give a protected pick swap instead of the protected pick. Morey and any Philly fan would be highly unlikely to accept something like that though.
User avatar
Raps in 4
RealGM
Posts: 51,844
And1: 40,680
Joined: Nov 01, 2008
Location: Toronto
 

Re: Marc Stein: Toronto has expressed interest in Ben Simmons 

Post#1911 » by Raps in 4 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:11 pm

Nebuchadnezzar wrote:
LoveMyRaps wrote:Simmons is a great player but a terrible fit for this team.

He'd turn Portland into contenders though.


Why do you think he is a terrible fit?


He can't shoot (we're a team in desperate need of shooting). He also plays the same position as 3 other young players on the team, including having the exact same play style as our newly drafted rookie.
Nebuchadnezzar
Junior
Posts: 308
And1: 371
Joined: Sep 20, 2010

Re: Marc Stein: Toronto has expressed interest in Ben Simmons 

Post#1912 » by Nebuchadnezzar » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:36 pm

Raps in 4 wrote:
Nebuchadnezzar wrote:
LoveMyRaps wrote:Simmons is a great player but a terrible fit for this team.

He'd turn Portland into contenders though.


Why do you think he is a terrible fit?


He can't shoot (we're a team in desperate need of shooting). He also plays the same position as 3 other young players on the team, including having the exact same play style as our newly drafted rookie.


Okay, not sure I'm totally aligned though. I see him as a PG, and FVV probably going the other way. I also see him as penetrating and creating open shots for GTJ, OG, and Pascal, as well as other bench players. I think he would also open up lanes for PS to cut to the hoop on the weakside. I feel like Pascal could get back to some of the things that made him great.

I feel like Bens ability to get to the hoop/create his own shot fills a bigger need than spot up shooting (which can be found). With someone who can penetrate you don't need others who can pull up off the bounce in the same way.
User avatar
Raps in 4
RealGM
Posts: 51,844
And1: 40,680
Joined: Nov 01, 2008
Location: Toronto
 

Re: Marc Stein: Toronto has expressed interest in Ben Simmons 

Post#1913 » by Raps in 4 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:45 pm

Nebuchadnezzar wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:
Nebuchadnezzar wrote:
Why do you think he is a terrible fit?


He can't shoot (we're a team in desperate need of shooting). He also plays the same position as 3 other young players on the team, including having the exact same play style as our newly drafted rookie.


Okay, not sure I'm totally aligned though. I see him as a PG, and FVV probably going the other way. I also see him as penetrating and creating open shots for GTJ, OG, and Pascal, as well as other bench players. I think he would also open up lanes for PS to cut to the hoop on the weakside. I feel like Pascal could get back to some of the things that made him great.

I feel like Bens ability to get to the hoop/create his own shot fills a bigger need than spot up shooting (which can be found). With someone who can penetrate you don't need others who can pull up off the bounce in the same way.


A PG who can't shoot is easy to shut down in the postseason, as we've see time and time again with Ben. For someone like him to be effective, he needs to be surrounded by 4 elite shooters. This team doesn't have that, especially not after trading Fred.

And again, he plays the exact same style as Barnes. If we want a big PG who can get to the rim and create for others, that's Barnes. He's obviously way more raw, but he's also 5 years younger and has shown a willingness to develop his offensive game (unlike Ben).
User avatar
vini_vidi_vici
RealGM
Posts: 14,940
And1: 15,914
Joined: Jun 29, 2006
 

Re: Marc Stein: Toronto has expressed interest in Ben Simmons 

Post#1914 » by vini_vidi_vici » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:47 pm

planetmars wrote:Just to level set here.. I'm thinking Ben's problems were due to Doc more than anything last season. He didn't play in the bubble due to injury. The year prior, it felt like Jimmy had to have the ball and so Simmons took a back seat. With Embiid being the #1 option, it was just hard to get his usage up. Swap Gasol for Embiid and I bet Siakam's usage plummets as well in 2019.

And in 2018 he was still able to put up 14ppg in 10 games. He did take some shots (16% of the time on pull ups). Not many but he was trying.

It's all moot anyways. We've moved on. I just think that Ben get's a little too much flack and a lot of it has to do with how Doc handled things. Similar reason why PG was labeled Playoff P in the bubble, but then looked like a super star last season.


You can blame Doc, but he was the same under Brown. He went from 11 shots outside the paint, to the next season 1.

If a guy wont shoot, ill never blame a coach.

I put in his career numbers, 13 FGAs outside the paint for his career. For perspective, in 19-20, without Kawhi, Siakam shot 79 shots outside the paint. In that yr alone, Siakam shot 42 more 3s in that yr alone, than Simmons shot FGAs outside the paint for his career. Hell, Siakam shot 1 less corner 3 that yr, than all of SImmons FGAs outside the paint again for his career. Were comparing 11 games and 418 mins, to Simmons career in the POs (34 games/1192 mins). Your argument would have more merit if he didnt show that he would shoot more with Kawhi/etc.. gone.

If your argument is we swap out Embiid for Gasol, than I assume, were also swapping out Butler for Kawhi (increase in USG from 22.1 to 31.0)?? Are we upping/lower the pace to compare possessions used (not percentage)?? Im just not sure thats a fair argument, and one I dont care for.

PG was labeled this because....

THE NICKNAME WAS first uttered in a small room with about 15 reporters huddled around George. It was something of an off-handed comment the day before the Thunder opened the 2018 postseason against the Utah Jazz.

George was asked about shifting his responsibilities to guarding then-rookie sensation Donovan Mitchell. He tilted his head, grinned and in his smooth baritone delivered a quip that has followed him since.

"Y'all ain't met Playoff P yet, huh?"


He got the nickname well before the bubble. I would also argue against PG13 looking like a "superstar" last seasons Playoff (you didnt say Playoffs but its inferred by the context before it), I just dont care about that either. If your argument is Tyronn Lue was the reason after Donovan/Doc screwed him (the premise behind Doc/Brown), then im even less agreeable.
Image
iDRTG is terrible.
User avatar
ontnut
General Manager
Posts: 8,038
And1: 5,468
Joined: Jan 31, 2009
Location: Toronto
       

Re: Marc Stein: Toronto has expressed interest in Ben Simmons 

Post#1915 » by ontnut » Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:01 pm

I'm really surprised there's still so many people who want Ben on this team. The fit couldn't really be worse, particularly if we're talking about giving up Fred, probably our best/most willing perimeter shooter.

If this team was our all-offense type teams from the past with Derozan, it would make sense to add a DPOY candidate. I just don't see how Ben helps this iteration of the Raptors, especially since we just drafted an 80% approximation of Ben, in Barnes.

Really the 76ers really just need to make that deal for CJ and change: it makes too much sense for both sides in terms of roster balance - but will Lillard be able to play off ball? I also think he'd do well on GS, but doubt 76ers take a Wiggins/Wiseman/Kuminga package back.

I'd be interested to see if maybe there's a deal to be had for Lavine, if Chicago's all-offense experiment implodes halfway through the season, and they feel like they want to get something for Lavine rather than risking his FA.
Image
My Bae Bae :love:
Federalies
Pro Prospect
Posts: 790
And1: 912
Joined: Jun 14, 2017
         

Re: Marc Stein: Toronto has expressed interest in Ben Simmons 

Post#1916 » by Federalies » Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:15 pm

Raps in 4 wrote:
Nebuchadnezzar wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:
He can't shoot (we're a team in desperate need of shooting). He also plays the same position as 3 other young players on the team, including having the exact same play style as our newly drafted rookie.


Okay, not sure I'm totally aligned though. I see him as a PG, and FVV probably going the other way. I also see him as penetrating and creating open shots for GTJ, OG, and Pascal, as well as other bench players. I think he would also open up lanes for PS to cut to the hoop on the weakside. I feel like Pascal could get back to some of the things that made him great.

I feel like Bens ability to get to the hoop/create his own shot fills a bigger need than spot up shooting (which can be found). With someone who can penetrate you don't need others who can pull up off the bounce in the same way.


A PG who can't shoot is easy to shut down in the postseason, as we've see time and time again with Ben. For someone like him to be effective, he needs to be surrounded by 4 elite shooters. This team doesn't have that, especially not after trading Fred.

And again, he plays the exact same style as Barnes. If we want a big PG who can get to the rim and create for others, that's Barnes. He's obviously way more raw, but he's also 5 years younger and has shown a willingness to develop his offensive game (unlike Ben).


I agree he needs shooters that’s why I can’t see any deal with FVV (and they had him sit in for the lotto draft, bad look if he gets shipped out so soon). While I’d probably rather have a healthy/motivated Pascal, I could also see a world where the organization swaps him for Simmons and you surround him with FVV, GTJ, OG, and Boucher. That’s 4 good to great 3 point shooters and at least 4 plus defenders.

I’d be surprised if it happens but with Masai, sometimes you need to expect the unexpected!
User avatar
S.W.A.N
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,521
And1: 1,961
Joined: Aug 11, 2004
Location: Sick Wicked And Nasty
 

Re: Marc Stein: Toronto has expressed interest in Ben Simmons 

Post#1917 » by S.W.A.N » Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:02 am

For the right price I'm in on Simmons.

Yes, he's a mental case that needs work... But getting a guy with his talent for 4 years is something we rarely get a chance to do.

If the cost is Fred, and Boucher plus a pick and a swap... I'd do it. Or Fred and GTJ. Not that I hate Fred or anything but Ben is a rare talent that if a coach unlocks his potential is a top 5 player.

Defensively throwing Simmons into the mix with OG, Barnes, Siakam, and Precious/Birch should be the best defense in the NBA hands down. That team would also score a metric **** tonne of points in transition. Also could play 'small ball by playing Simmons at the 5 and running out an extra 3 and d wing.

Of course the downside is he's mentally soft and you risk the chance that he never gets it, but if he does? Thats a championship level team if Barnes is what we think he is. And since he fits age wise it could be a championship level team for multiple years... Not too often you get to trade for a player with Ben's potential on that type of contract. If you can buy low, it worth the risk. If the price is too high, it easy to walk away.
We the North
User avatar
everdiso
Head Coach
Posts: 6,456
And1: 8,179
Joined: Nov 18, 2008

Re: Marc Stein: Toronto has expressed interest in Ben Simmons 

Post#1918 » by everdiso » Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:37 am

mihaic wrote:.

Speaking seriously, you can hide 1 guy like Simmons .



Can you tho? 6ers couldn't even with 4 scoring options ahead of him.
"I wasn't gonna act surprised - cuz I wasn't surprised."
User avatar
OakleyDokely
RealGM
Posts: 20,353
And1: 42,182
Joined: Aug 02, 2008
Location: 416
 

Re: Marc Stein: Toronto has expressed interest in Ben Simmons 

Post#1919 » by OakleyDokely » Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:01 pm

It was easier to hide Simmons when he just didn't take 3s. Now, he's reluctant to even shoot from in close because he's afraid to shoot FT's. Hiding a player who doesn't shoot AT ALL is a big problem.

His shot attempts have declined since his rookie year. FG attempts per 36

17/18: 13.2
18/19: 12.7
19/20: 11.4
20/21: 11.2
Harcore Fenton Mun
General Manager
Posts: 8,688
And1: 5,104
Joined: Jul 17, 2006

Re: Marc Stein: Toronto has expressed interest in Ben Simmons 

Post#1920 » by Harcore Fenton Mun » Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:24 pm

An interesting breakdown.
Image

Return to Toronto Raptors