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Simmons: Yes or No?

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Simmons: Yes or No?

Yes, landing Ben Simmons would be huge, go for it Masai
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31%
GTFO Simmons is overrated and a cancer, do not want
172
69%
 
Total votes: 251

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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#121 » by HumbleRen » Sun Sep 5, 2021 11:04 pm

Yes IMO. Basically comes down to who would you rather have, Siakam or Simmons.

Ima go with Simmons.
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#122 » by PT416 » Sun Sep 5, 2021 11:24 pm

Siakam straight up? Yes ... Simmons > Siakam
OG straight up? Yes (there I said it) ... Simmons > OG... Simmons right now is at the level OG is trying to be at, so why not develop Simmons to the next level?
FVV + Pick + Fillers (Yes)
Barnes? No.
Anyone else? Hell yes
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#123 » by Got Nuffin » Sun Sep 5, 2021 11:45 pm

I think Simmons will rebound on his new team (out of spite if nothing else lol) but I am really struggling to see the fit here with Scottie Barnes. They are very similar players, with Simmons being faster, more athletic and Barnes being longer, stronger and minus the arrogance / stupidity.

How are we playing both of them at the same time? They both benefit from having the ball in their hands. Neither can shoot at this stage. Honestly, I think it could be detrimental to Barnes development if Simmons lands here.

That said, the price for Simmons should get lower and lower from here on in and it's mightily tempting to take a flier on him.
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#124 » by TheBoi10 » Mon Sep 6, 2021 12:47 am

Raps in 4 wrote:
TheBoi10 wrote:Yes, the Raptors need a big talent upgrade


How does trading for the worst shooter in the NBA upgrade our talent?


It's an upgrade when your best player is possibly a 5'10 dude with no burst and the worst finisher in the league
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#125 » by Raps in 4 » Mon Sep 6, 2021 12:50 am

TheBoi10 wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:
TheBoi10 wrote:Yes, the Raptors need a big talent upgrade


How does trading for the worst shooter in the NBA upgrade our talent?


It's an upgrade when your best player is possibly a 5'10 dude with no burst and the worst finisher in the league


You're just exchanging one set of problems for another.

Kawhi was an upgrade in talent. Simmons is a lateral shift. Maybe even a downgrade as he's a difficult player to slot into an NBA lineup.
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#126 » by Lukeem » Mon Sep 6, 2021 12:56 am

For a package of something like dragic, Boucher, Flynn, pick or two sure

Giving up one of og, Barnes, Siakam, fvv is risky especially if also giving picks that is side against

Giving up two of those is a definite no
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#127 » by TheBoi10 » Mon Sep 6, 2021 1:05 am

Raps in 4 wrote:
TheBoi10 wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:
How does trading for the worst shooter in the NBA upgrade our talent?


It's an upgrade when your best player is possibly a 5'10 dude with no burst and the worst finisher in the league


You're just exchanging one set of problems for another.

Kawhi was an upgrade in talent. Simmons is a lateral shift. Maybe even a downgrade as he's a difficult player to slot into an NBA lineup.


I don't see the downgrade. FVV has scrapped every modicum of potential he has, it's amazing he's in the position given what he has to work with. FVV is a very good shooter and a great defender, more suited as an elite role player than an overextended star as he is now with the Raptors. On the other hand Simmons is the exact opposite, everything that can go wrong with him has gone wrong. Even with that Simmons is a more impactful player than FVV.
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#128 » by Pointgod » Mon Sep 6, 2021 2:42 am

Raps in 4 wrote:
Pointgod wrote:
normgod6 wrote:trading for a player like ben simmons when his value is artificially low due to locker room drama and reactionary takes is literally the exact type of trade you make when you are a treadmill team like us. Ben had higher upside than FVV and Siakam. Seriously, what good will holding onto a 5'11 shooting guard who cant finish around the rim and a "primary" option who cant playmake or score efficiently since 2019 do for us? Ben at least has all the tools you look for in a star. He is just mentally a wreck right now. We trade for him in the hopes a change of scenery allows him to have a bounceback year and start to maximize his potential. If he does, our ceiling becomes so much higher and we get out of the treadmill

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It’s always amazing to me that fans don’t understand the concept of a depressed asset. OMG Simmons sucks! No way we’d give up anything more than Chris Boucher for him! A player of Simmons’ caliber rarely become available. It’s pretty clear how you maximize Simmons, a very similar way to how you build around Giannis. You get Simmons on the team and take a season or two to explore and see what happens even if it’s just building back up his trade value to eventually move him.


The problem with Simmons is that he's been a depressed asset his entire career. He's never shown the ability to play at a higher level than this. At what point do we accept that this is the normal Simmons? He's not suddenly going to transform from an ugly ducking into a swan.

His fans think he's still a 20 year-old first overall pick with unlimited potential. In reality, he's a 25 year-old that has refused to work in his game in 4 NBA seasons.


The problem with Ben Simmons is that we’ve known for at least 2 seasons that him and Embiid could not coexist together. He’s been performing at an all-nba level despite the team not suiting his skill set. He’s been an allstar player since his second season in the league, all the advanced metrics support him being a positive contributor to a winning team. You’re acting like he has significant major holes in his game. If Simmons could even just bring his FT shooting to 70% and put in situations that maximize his offensive game. Simmons doesn’t have to go through some huge transformation. All he needs to match is the same offensive output as his third year with better FT shooting and continue to provide elite defence, playmaking, athleticism to begin realizing his potential.
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#129 » by ATLTimekeeper » Mon Sep 6, 2021 3:08 pm

Pointgod wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:
Pointgod wrote:
It’s always amazing to me that fans don’t understand the concept of a depressed asset. OMG Simmons sucks! No way we’d give up anything more than Chris Boucher for him! A player of Simmons’ caliber rarely become available. It’s pretty clear how you maximize Simmons, a very similar way to how you build around Giannis. You get Simmons on the team and take a season or two to explore and see what happens even if it’s just building back up his trade value to eventually move him.


The problem with Simmons is that he's been a depressed asset his entire career. He's never shown the ability to play at a higher level than this. At what point do we accept that this is the normal Simmons? He's not suddenly going to transform from an ugly ducking into a swan.

His fans think he's still a 20 year-old first overall pick with unlimited potential. In reality, he's a 25 year-old that has refused to work in his game in 4 NBA seasons.


The problem with Ben Simmons is that we’ve known for at least 2 seasons that him and Embiid could not coexist together. He’s been performing at an all-nba level despite the team not suiting his skill set. He’s been an allstar player since his second season in the league, all the advanced metrics support him being a positive contributor to a winning team. You’re acting like he has significant major holes in his game. If Simmons could even just bring his FT shooting to 70% and put in situations that maximize his offensive game. Simmons doesn’t have to go through some huge transformation. All he needs to match is the same offensive output as his third year with better FT shooting and continue to provide elite defence, playmaking, athleticism to begin realizing his potential.


Which team suits his skillset? How many awards did Rondo rack up outside Boston? And now how many dominant ballhandlers can't score and can't shoot? Once you hit the playoffs everyone starts defending, and it's harder to score in transition (which is 1/3rd of his offense). And he wasn't particularly efficient in transition (27th percentile).

But really the argument shouldn't be whether he's a valuable player, it should be whether his acquisition cost is worth it. For the Raptors, that's a hell no. You're giving up someone good who already fits your team for someone that requires further tailoring AND has to improve.

When you add in that he's not willing to honour his current contract, and his agent has been at the forefront of operating in the interest of the Lakers, and that he also wants to play in LA, it's academic.
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#130 » by Oakvillehoops » Mon Sep 6, 2021 3:40 pm

TheBoi10 wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:
TheBoi10 wrote:Yes, the Raptors need a big talent upgrade


How does trading for the worst shooter in the NBA upgrade our talent?


It's an upgrade when your best player is possibly a 5'10 dude with no burst and the worst finisher in the league


LOL the FVV height thing is over the top. He’s not 5’10. He’s a legit 6’1 and taller then Lowry was. I’ve stood next to them both in person. He’s just so stocky he looks shorter on TV
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#131 » by Harcore Fenton Mun » Mon Sep 6, 2021 4:00 pm

The first major red flag for Simmons, at least in my mind was his first year (2016). Not the first year he played (2017). He had a full year off while with an NBA team. A full year to work on his shooting, with an NBA staff. With a shooting coach, at least I'm assuming that the Sixers would ask him to work on his biggest major weakness.

The fact that he came out of the "Lab" having zero growth with his shot tells you it's probably not going to change. He basically sat out that year, did nothing...just so he could win ROY. Like, people compare Barnes to him. Barnes has already had more development in his shot than Simmons has had over the last five years.

He's good, but you can't over pay for him at this point with that contract.
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#132 » by ash_k » Mon Sep 6, 2021 4:07 pm

One of the main reasons I have been all in for Ben is for the scoring (re)distribution:
OG's game trajectory demands more touches and same with GTjr: In today's game, with their style of play, both project to be efficient 20-point scorers shooting 40% from 3. Much more efficient that both FVV&Pascal. Giving the team even more potential if their talent is maximized.(the touches)

With FVV looking to be an all-star (scoring more) and Pascal looking to re-gain his All 2nd team, I don't think it can happen. Though with Pascal out the first month, there will be an opportunity to temporally redistribute the scoring cards.

Ideally, I would have PG FVV|SG OG|SF Simmons|PF Pascal|Stretch 5 but it is impossible.

But if you get an opportunity to start a unique lineup of PG Ben|SG Trent|SF OG|PF Siakam|C then you have to go for it 1000% and would not fault a PG FVV|SG Trent|SF OG|PF Simmons|C even though it would go against that "positionless ball" stance.

Basically acquiring Ben Simmons would maximize the talent of both OG and Gary Trent j. Giving the team more potential.
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#133 » by djsunyc » Mon Sep 6, 2021 11:05 pm

in terms of impact, what makes ben simmons better than our version of derozan?

imma ride with siakam who already proved to be an impact guy on a championship level.

how in the world are you guys ok with a ball handler not wanting to shoot? are you still watching video taped games of the 90's? do you know how easy it would be stop our offense in the playoffs? he puts so much pressure on all the other players to make 1 on 1 moves in every single offensive set. sixers having an elite one on one dominant scorer in embiid is the only reason they aren't a play-in/lotto team.
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#134 » by vaaron » Tue Sep 7, 2021 12:01 am

that is just what the raptors need is a max player that can't play crunch minutes due to being to big a liability.
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#135 » by sidsid » Tue Sep 7, 2021 1:47 am

djsunyc wrote:in terms of impact, what makes ben simmons better than our version of derozan?


DeRozan had no off-ball value. His value was entirely linked to his usage.

Ben has THE most valuable D side of the ball trait: being a 6'9 athletic defender, rebounder, switcher, etc.

His main on-ball strengths are team based playmaking.

imma ride with siakam who already proved to be an impact guy on a championship level.


Absolutely. We're only trading Fred for Ben, not our high value potential players.

how in the world are you guys ok with a ball handler not wanting to shoot? are you still watching video taped games of the 90's? do you know how easy it would be stop our offense in the playoffs? he puts so much pressure on all the other players to make 1 on 1 moves in every single offensive set. sixers having an elite one on one dominant scorer in embiid is the only reason they aren't a play-in/lotto team.


About as ok as having an undersized combo guard who's scoring inside the arc dips to the bottom percentile in the playoffs against teams that matter as a key offensive playmaker. I mean, we're not talking about great options here. Worrying about which roster combination of players is going to get embarrassed by the Nets or something next year isn't my primary concern at this stage.

We're mediocre on offense now with a low playoff ceiling role player at PG. I'm more interested in what can happen if we can develop a guy like Ben by basically unlocking any offense at all out of him.

He's likely going to be a better trade asset anyway. The worry is that it would likely cost more high value futures which I'm not ok with.
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#136 » by ATLTimekeeper » Tue Sep 7, 2021 2:27 pm

sidsid wrote:[

DeRozan had no off-ball value. His value was entirely linked to his usage.

Ben has THE most valuable D side of the ball trait: being a 6'9 athletic defender, rebounder, switcher, etc.


That's highly debatable. The most valuable D side of the ball trait is being big and long - shot deterrer. That's why Embiid/Gobert/Brook Lopez succeed, because they're impact defenders that drop back and dissuade attacks to the rim. Ben's own reluctance to play the C as a back-up, even, again reduces his own value. Draymond Green's value increases significantly when he's a small ball 5. Ben hasn't shown the appetite to take on that role beyond just gimmick line-ups, and to be honest, he hasn't shown that he can use his defensive ability and that "athleticism" to protect the paint. FVV and Simmons block the same amount of shots. Fred contests as many shots < 6 ft as Ben, and Ben gives up a higher percentage.
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#137 » by anotherhomer » Tue Sep 7, 2021 3:29 pm

guys, sixers will take CJ McCollum over FVV first of all
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#138 » by sidsid » Tue Sep 7, 2021 3:41 pm

ATLTimekeeper wrote:
sidsid wrote:[

DeRozan had no off-ball value. His value was entirely linked to his usage.

Ben has THE most valuable D side of the ball trait: being a 6'9 athletic defender, rebounder, switcher, etc.


That's highly debatable. The most valuable D side of the ball trait is being big and long - shot deterrer. That's why Embiid/Gobert/Brook Lopez succeed, because they're impact defenders that drop back and dissuade attacks to the rim. Ben's own reluctance to play the C as a back-up, even, again reduces his own value. Draymond Green's value increases significantly when he's a small ball 5. Ben hasn't shown the appetite to take on that role beyond just gimmick line-ups, and to be honest, he hasn't shown that he can use his defensive ability and that "athleticism" to protect the paint. FVV and Simmons block the same amount of shots. Fred contests as many shots < 6 ft as Ben, and Ben gives up a higher percentage.


Oh yeah, the C position remains the most important. Being able to find a player who can do it all in this era is the real unicorn (Lopez can be played off the floor, so I'm not counting that).

It's why I would have given up a lot for Mobley. Embiid is still underrated as a superstar because of it, and you can see ADs impact just take over games if he has a few other guys around him. And maybe a little something Barnes can do for us if we give him some burn their in a poor man's role. The Draymond comps in terms of IQ are there.

But there's like a handful of guys who can do this. Next thing down the ladder is the OGs of the league, which is more attainable.

I'm not gonna rehash the advantages of size across the board on O and D against the elite competition in the playoffs. We disagree here. Just as I disagree with Morey when he was tweeting his various analytics showing how, Acksually, Ben and Embiid are number one in the league based on 5 man units blah blah number one in the east blah blah. If that regular season stuff translated to the playoffs, we wouldn't be talking about Ben trades and him not showing up to training camp right now.
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#139 » by ash_k » Tue Sep 7, 2021 3:43 pm

anotherhomer wrote:guys, sixers will take CJ McCollum over FVV first of all

>CJ will be 30 in a few days and he plays SG like Seth (and Danny)
>FVV is 3 years younger than CJ and the same age as Embiid ..and would replace Ben at the PG ..and is the far superior defender(CJ). Proven NBA finals performer.
Both are borderline all-stars, but FVV is the better fit.

Sixers taking FVV over CJ seems much more logical.
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#140 » by ATLTimekeeper » Tue Sep 7, 2021 5:59 pm

sidsid wrote:
But there's like a handful of guys who can do this. Next thing down the ladder is the OGs of the league, which is more attainable.


Sorry, where is Ben in here? We've already established he's not Draymond as a paint presence/small ball 5. He's not AD, for similar reasons (although AD doesn't like to play the 5 either, and he's not that mobile on the perimeter, as we've seen Siakam chew him up for years now).

If he's in OG's range, then yeah, those skills are attainable and not at all the most valuable defensive traits. Teams load up on switchy/athletic wings, and they do that because they know it's a surplus skill that can be acquired for cheap. Ben's valuable skill isn't his defense, but that he's a 6"10 point guard. It's unfortunately undermined by his inability to shoot and score at high volume. This makes him not that valuable in my mind. Dribble penetration is good if you have it, but it's not necessary to generate good offense nowadays. And likewise stopping the ball on the perimeter is less important than deterring traffic in the paint and providing top notch help defense.

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