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Simmons: Yes or No?

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Simmons: Yes or No?

Yes, landing Ben Simmons would be huge, go for it Masai
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GTFO Simmons is overrated and a cancer, do not want
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Total votes: 251

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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#161 » by Mr. Perfect » Thu Sep 9, 2021 12:56 am

Siakam for Simmons straight up is the only realistic offer I would be down for. No to trading anyone else.
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#162 » by ash_k » Thu Sep 9, 2021 2:09 am

OakleyDokely wrote:
ash_k wrote:
OakleyDokely wrote:
If we did, Westbrook would be one of the greatest players of all-time

TOP5 triple double 1.Russ(MVP) 2.Oscar 3.Magic(MVP) 4.Kidd 5.LeBron (MVP)

He is one of greatest of all-time. He would be top20 easily if he could combine those triple-double with DPOY-level defense(and a couple of rings). Ben will be up there with Kidd&Magic with triple-doubles. Only special players can do those: Doncic is well on his way as well.

Funny that any actual NBA follower could say "You shouldn't use triple doubles and All-Star selections as a metric to judge a player." maybe in the NHL, those kind of accolades (all-team and such) don't mean anything, but that is certainly not the case in the NBA. Same folks probably think that only scoring and the 3pt-shooting matter.

Only special players get multiple all-star appearances and multiple all-defensive teams.

MJ is not just the GOAT because of his offense:
DPOY(1988)|9Γ— All-Defensive First Team (1988–1993, 1996–1998)|3Γ— steals leader (1988, 1990, 1993)
Kobe is not just up there because of his offense:
9Γ— All-Defensive First Team (2000, 2003, 2004, 2006–2011)|3Γ— All-Defensive Second Team (2001, 2002, 2012)
LeBron James is not just up there because of his offense:
5Γ— All-Defensive First Team (2009–2013)|NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2014)


Nobody is saying he isn't useful, but the dude has huge offensive flaws which make it difficult to build around him, especially at his salary level.

It's useless to compare him to those all-time greats because he provides nowhere close the offensive impact those guys did.

You are using that "useless" because you only see individual scoring and 3pt shooting impact. NBA sees playmaking (as offensive impact) and elite defense too: Jason Kidd averaged more than 17 points per game only once and his shooting developed very late. Ben Simmons '96 will be in the HOF while a FVV'94 has a long way to go to be in the conversation.
And let management worry about Ben's contract (those kind of players will always get max-deals)
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#163 » by Clay Davis » Thu Sep 9, 2021 3:45 am

Eh I don't think that there's much of a difference, when it comes to defending guards, between FVV and Simmons.

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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#164 » by blackcosmos » Thu Sep 9, 2021 5:04 am

with everything we know about his game and the fact he is earning like 40 million per season.

NO
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#165 » by God Squad » Thu Sep 9, 2021 10:52 am

It's gonna have to be a "no" from me dawg.
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#166 » by OakleyDokely » Thu Sep 9, 2021 1:25 pm

ash_k wrote:
OakleyDokely wrote:
ash_k wrote:TOP5 triple double 1.Russ(MVP) 2.Oscar 3.Magic(MVP) 4.Kidd 5.LeBron (MVP)

He is one of greatest of all-time. He would be top20 easily if he could combine those triple-double with DPOY-level defense(and a couple of rings). Ben will be up there with Kidd&Magic with triple-doubles. Only special players can do those: Doncic is well on his way as well.

Funny that any actual NBA follower could say "You shouldn't use triple doubles and All-Star selections as a metric to judge a player." maybe in the NHL, those kind of accolades (all-team and such) don't mean anything, but that is certainly not the case in the NBA. Same folks probably think that only scoring and the 3pt-shooting matter.

Only special players get multiple all-star appearances and multiple all-defensive teams.

MJ is not just the GOAT because of his offense:
DPOY(1988)|9Γ— All-Defensive First Team (1988–1993, 1996–1998)|3Γ— steals leader (1988, 1990, 1993)
Kobe is not just up there because of his offense:
9Γ— All-Defensive First Team (2000, 2003, 2004, 2006–2011)|3Γ— All-Defensive Second Team (2001, 2002, 2012)
LeBron James is not just up there because of his offense:
5Γ— All-Defensive First Team (2009–2013)|NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2014)


Nobody is saying he isn't useful, but the dude has huge offensive flaws which make it difficult to build around him, especially at his salary level.

It's useless to compare him to those all-time greats because he provides nowhere close the offensive impact those guys did.

You are using that "useless" because you only see individual scoring and 3pt shooting impact. NBA sees playmaking (as offensive impact) and elite defense too: Jason Kidd averaged more than 17 points per game only once and his shooting developed very late. Ben Simmons '96 will be in the HOF while a FVV'94 has a long way to go to be in the conversation.
And let management worry about Ben's contract (those kind of players will always get max-deals)
Jason Kidd could shoot. He was a mid 30s 3pt shooter for his career on over 4 attempts per game. He was close to an 80% FT shooter.

Simmons is unwilling to shoot and when he does get to the line, he can't hit FTs. Those are big problems that you continue to ignore. So yes, comparing him to guys who can actually shoot is useless.

Simmons isn't a two way player like those guys, he's a one way player, which makes him less valuable overall.
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#167 » by ATLTimekeeper » Thu Sep 9, 2021 1:52 pm

Rajon Rondo all-defensive 1st, 2nd, 3rd teams from 2008-2012. All-Star from 2010-2013. 13th in all-time assists. Future hall-of-fame player. He's been a nonentity or bench player through his prime. Pretty much a carbon copy of Ben, couldn't get along with Doc Rivers, needed 3 hall of famers to cover up for his flaws, his defense was immediately noted to be less important once he no longer had KG covering his back.

fwiw, the Raptors were trying to trade Lowry for Rondo back in 2013 after the Knicks trade fell through. Would have been an absolute disaster. The Raptors also wanted Kyrie Irving after he demanded out of Cleveland. Would have been a horrendous debacle. Sometimes our FO has really bad ideas, and they're saved by being unable to get a deal done. This looks like another one of those.
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#168 » by Jerry Lucas » Thu Sep 9, 2021 2:07 pm

Read on Twitter



People here really want this primadonna who thinks everything is gonna be handed to him with zero work required? Technically one could say it is his problem because if he didn't allow himself to get exposed as a net negative factor in the playoffs if you use Hack a Ben, his trade value definitely wouldn't be as low as it is right now. If he made any serious attempt throughout his career so far to improve his jumpshot/FT shooting/corner 3 his trade value definitely would not be as low as it is right now.

If the Raptors acquire him anyone who thinks he will magically improve under the Raptors development staff is delusional. The player has to want to improve to improve. And for those who think him not improving his shot is necessary, how much non-spacing do you think this team is gonna be able to get away with? Birch, Precious, Scottie, arguably Siakam if his 3pt shot doesn't return to previous form after coming back from his surgery...all non spacers.

And based on some of the mock trades I've seen in these Simmons threads (including guys like FVV/Boucher/Trent), why would we trade from our player pool of floor spacers, something we are seriously lacking and all contending teams need to have? It seems like some of you want to see a team with a worse offense than the Kevin O'Neill season.
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#169 » by ash_k » Thu Sep 9, 2021 2:23 pm

ATLTimekeeper wrote:Rajon Rondo all-defensive 1st, 2nd, 3rd teams from 2008-2012. All-Star from 2010-2013. 13th in all-time assists. Future hall-of-fame player. He's been a nonentity or bench player through his prime. Pretty much a carbon copy of Ben, couldn't get along with Doc Rivers, needed 3 hall of famers to cover up for his flaws, his defense was immediately noted to be less important once he no longer had KG covering his back.

fwiw, the Raptors were trying to trade Lowry for Rondo back in 2013 after the Knicks trade fell through. Would have been an absolute disaster. The Raptors also wanted Kyrie Irving after he demanded out of Cleveland. Would have been a horrendous debacle. Sometimes our FO has really bad ideas, and they're saved by being unable to get a deal done. This looks like another one of those.

a 6'10 Rondo at 25 years old though? :lol:
In that playoff series against LeBron, he looked unbelievable carrying the big 3. Rondo was in the best PG conversation! then that ACL happened.
I am glad those trades did not happen back then as we just did not have the "infrastructure" to deal with the Rondos and Kyries properly.
Now, as a franchise, we are as solid and reputable as any other team.
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#170 » by ATLTimekeeper » Thu Sep 9, 2021 2:44 pm

ash_k wrote:a 6'10 Rondo at 25 years old though? :lol:
In that playoff series against LeBron, he looked unbelievable carrying the big 3. Rondo was in the best PG conversation! then that ACL happened.
I am glad those trades did not happen back then as we just did not have the "infrastructure" to deal with the Rondos and Kyries properly.
Now, as a franchise, we are as solid and reputable as any other team.


We're just addressing the futility in using awards and credits here. The league is inherently biased towards bigger markets and prestige teams, and these early results don't mean much down the road. Kyle tore his ACL before he entered the league and just kept getting better. Rondo's decline had nothing to do with his injury. He couldn't shoot, and that would impact how he played and how teams played him, and then the league went through a 3 point revolution which exacerbated his faults to the extent that he was essentially TJ McConnell. Fine player, but not a starter.

I can see why you're so mistaken with Ben, because you take small sample results as evidence of greatness. But we know what Rondo is and we can see what might happen to Ben.

As for infrastructure, which teams would have that infrastructure and why would the Raptors have it now? Even the Nets, where Kyrie chose to play and has been given all kinds of CBA violating gifts from ownership (which MLSE cannot grant), can't even get him to show up to play. Rondo threw molotov cocktails at the Celtics and the Mavs, two championship winning organizations with HOF coaches.
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#171 » by OakleyDokely » Thu Sep 9, 2021 2:55 pm

ATLTimekeeper wrote:Rajon Rondo all-defensive 1st, 2nd, 3rd teams from 2008-2012. All-Star from 2010-2013. 13th in all-time assists. Future hall-of-fame player. He's been a nonentity or bench player through his prime. Pretty much a carbon copy of Ben, couldn't get along with Doc Rivers, needed 3 hall of famers to cover up for his flaws, his defense was immediately noted to be less important once he no longer had KG covering his back.

fwiw, the Raptors were trying to trade Lowry for Rondo back in 2013 after the Knicks trade fell through. Would have been an absolute disaster. The Raptors also wanted Kyrie Irving after he demanded out of Cleveland. Would have been a horrendous debacle. Sometimes our FO has really bad ideas, and they're saved by being unable to get a deal done. This looks like another one of those.
Rondo in his prime also played during a time when outside shooting wasn't nearly as important as it is today. As we've seen, Rondo is a lot easier to exploit in the modern game and he isn't nearly as impactful as he once was.
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#172 » by ash_k » Thu Sep 9, 2021 3:09 pm

ATLTimekeeper wrote:
ash_k wrote:a 6'10 Rondo at 25 years old though? :lol:
In that playoff series against LeBron, he looked unbelievable carrying the big 3. Rondo was in the best PG conversation! then that ACL happened.
I am glad those trades did not happen back then as we just did not have the "infrastructure" to deal with the Rondos and Kyries properly.
Now, as a franchise, we are as solid and reputable as any other team.


We're just addressing the futility in using awards and credits here. The league is inherently biased towards bigger markets and prestige teams, and these early results don't mean much down the road. Kyle tore his ACL before he entered the league and just kept getting better. Rondo's decline had nothing to do with his injury. He couldn't shoot, and that would impact how he played and how teams played him, and then the league went through a 3 point revolution which exacerbated his faults to the extent that he was essentially TJ McConnell. Fine player, but not a starter.

I can see why you're so mistaken with Ben, because you take small sample results as evidence of greatness. But we know what Rondo is and we can see what might happen to Ben.

As for infrastructure, which teams would have that infrastructure and why would the Raptors have it now? Even the Nets, where Kyrie chose to play and has been given all kinds of CBA violating gifts from ownership (which MLSE cannot grant), can't even get him to show up to play. Rondo threw molotov cocktails at the Celtics and the Mavs, two championship winning organizations with HOF coaches.

Again he was in the Best PG conversation while "shooting" was never his game. Like I said I am glad we never traded for him (and Kyrie. Those 2 have always been a pain.

Ben is certainly not the same as those two. How many times have you heard him say anything controversial? even blasting his team? After that Hawks series, he stood out in front of the media and took the heat:
While Embiid and his 8 TOs blamed Ben's pass to Thybulle as the game's turning point and Doc and his history of playoffs collapse could not back him up as his starting PG.


If you call the following a "small example" for someone that just hit 25 years old
3Γ— NBA All-Star (2019–2021) |All-NBA Third Team (2020)|2nd DPOY(2021)|2Γ— NBA All-Defensive First Team (2020, 2021)|NBA steals leader (2020)
14.8|10.2|9.2 in one series then 17.2|7.6|6.6| in another then 18.2|10.2|9.0 then 14.4|8.4|6.4 ...all this during the "3pt revolution"


then myself, others, Raptors very own's Eric Smith and the voice Matt Devlin must be on something else.
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#173 » by ATLTimekeeper » Thu Sep 9, 2021 3:17 pm

ash_k wrote:Again he was in the Best PG conversation while "shooting" was never his game. Like I said I am glad we never traded for him (and Kyrie. Those 2 have always been a pain.

Ben is certainly not the same as those two. How many times have you heard him say anything controversial? even blasting his team? After that Hawks series, he stood out in front of the media and took the heat:
While Embiid and his 8 TOs blamed Ben's pass to Thybulle as the game's turning point and Doc and his history of playoffs collapse could not back him up as his starting PG.


He's insisting on being traded from a contender because someone called him out. I don't need to hear him say anything publicly, he's letting everyone know what his character is. Also, as previously covered, he challenged Lowry to a fight and didn't show up. We know what he's made of. Not someone who can take a punch.

then myself, others, Raptors very own's Eric Smith and the voice Matt Devlin must be on something else.


I know Eric Smith and Matt Devlin are on Bell/Rogers payroll :lol: Is that what you're on?
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#174 » by ash_k » Thu Sep 9, 2021 3:35 pm

ATLTimekeeper wrote:
He's insisting on being traded from a contender because someone called him out. I don't need to hear him say anything publicly, he's letting everyone know what his character is. Also, as previously covered, he challenged Lowry to a fight and didn't show up. We know what he's made of. Not someone who can take a punch.

That was last month twitters "news". We have now all heard that he is willing to play for any team! like previously covered, it is an emotional sport and they are professional: Melo&KG are still alive :lol: despite that "cheerios" stuff.

He is fully justified to want out. Embiid had 8 TOs in Game 7..8 in game 6..they were up 2-1 then Embiid goes 4 for 20 in game 4's loss. Then he blames him for that pass to Thybulle, really?!
Rivers and his history of playoffs collapse clearly indicate that his coaching does not give confidence to his players in the most pressurized moment. That's the only explanation.

ATLTimekeeper wrote:I know Eric Smith and Matt Devlin are on Bell/Rogers payroll :lol: Is that what you're on?


Does one really need to be on anyone's payroll to recognize how special those (combination of) accolades are
3Γ— NBA All-Star (2019–2021) out of 4 |All-NBA Third Team (2020)|2nd DPOY(2021)|2Γ— NBA All-Defensive First Team (2020, 2021)|NBA steals leader (2020) .
"small example"? :lol: cmon now.
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#175 » by ATLTimekeeper » Thu Sep 9, 2021 3:56 pm

ash_k wrote:That was last month twitters "news". We have now all heard that he is willing to play for any team! like previously covered, it is an emotional sport and they are professional: Melo&KG are still alive :lol: despite that "cheerios" stuff.

He is fully justified to want out. Embiid had 8 TOs in Game 7..8 in game 6..they were up 2-1 then Embiid goes 4 for 20 in game 4's loss. Then he blames him for that pass to Thybulle, really?!
Rivers and his history of playoffs collapse clearly indicate that his coaching does not give confidence to his players in the most pressurized moment. That's the only explanation.


So what? Take the criticism and improve. His reply was that he got assists and now "trade me."

Does one really need to be on anyone's payroll to recognize how special those (combination of) accolades are
3Γ— NBA All-Star (2019–2021) out of 4 |All-NBA Third Team (2020)|2nd DPOY(2021)|2Γ— NBA All-Defensive First Team (2020, 2021)|NBA steals leader (2020) .
"small example"? :lol: cmon now.


The small sample comment had to do with overrated Rondo's performance against the Cavs that one time. He's capable of having good series, but he's been rendered a bench player for years now. Here's a good example, why is Kyle Lowry getting 90 million and Rondo picking up minimums? Same draft, same injury history, same high IQ and coachability questions. One guy spent his off-seasons bricking 3s to the point where he damaged all the balls in the gym (as per David Thorpe), the other let his inability to shoot live in his head and didn't even try. As a result, Rondo's accomplishments that you bring up here ended the minute he was traded out of a major TV market. Sound like anyone?
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#176 » by vini_vidi_vici » Thu Sep 9, 2021 3:57 pm

Simmons in Games 5-6-7 combined for 19 points on 6/14, including shooting 7/20 on FTs.

In 5 of his 12 PO games last yr he scored <= 8 points. He had 2 shots >10+ ft in the POs last yr.

For an elite creator, more than half 30/59 were ASTd on, in the POs.

I cant imagine anyone wanting to cheer for that.
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#177 » by Nebuchadnezzar » Thu Sep 9, 2021 4:00 pm

Jerry Lucas wrote:
Read on Twitter



People here really want this primadonna who thinks everything is gonna be handed to him with zero work required? Technically one could say it is his problem because if he didn't allow himself to get exposed as a net negative factor in the playoffs if you use Hack a Ben, his trade value definitely wouldn't be as low as it is right now. If he made any serious attempt throughout his career so far to improve his jumpshot/FT shooting/corner 3 his trade value definitely would not be as low as it is right now.

If the Raptors acquire him anyone who thinks he will magically improve under the Raptors development staff is delusional. The player has to want to improve to improve. And for those who think him not improving his shot is necessary, how much non-spacing do you think this team is gonna be able to get away with? Birch, Precious, Scottie, arguably Siakam if his 3pt shot doesn't return to previous form after coming back from his surgery...all non spacers.

And based on some of the mock trades I've seen in these Simmons threads (including guys like FVV/Boucher/Trent), why would we trade from our player pool of floor spacers, something we are seriously lacking and all contending teams need to have? It seems like some of you want to see a team with a worse offense than the Kevin O'Neill season.


This video should not be in this thread - I'm not sure whey we have shifted over from the original Simmons Thread - this thread is way more divisive - the first Simmons thread was much more discussion based.
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#178 » by vini_vidi_vici » Thu Sep 9, 2021 4:01 pm

Who cares about awards, thats such a trite argument from like the 80s, IMO.
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#179 » by OakleyDokely » Thu Sep 9, 2021 4:07 pm

vini_vidi_vici wrote:Who cares about awards, thats such a trite argument from like the 80s, IMO.
And we will see just how many awards he racks up playing on Minny or Sac when he's not in a major market and he's not playing with a top 3 overall big in the league.
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#180 » by ash_k » Thu Sep 9, 2021 4:29 pm

ATLTimekeeper wrote:So what? Take the criticism and improve. His reply was that he got assists and now "trade me."

don't worry about that he will improve :lol: : That's the existing part and the all point of acquiring him NOW!(Nick Nurse)
A facilitator will not turn not into scorer tomorrow, but he will pick his moments to score more points 'better'. Jason Kidd was not a scorer&shooter but then he improved in his late 20s and all of sudden we saw him pick his moments to carry the NETS to NBA finals (one of the most underrated 2-year runs in NBA history IMO) . Lot of similarities between Kidd and Ben

ATLTimekeeper wrote:The small sample comment had to do with overrated Rondo's performance against the Cavs that one time. He's capable of having good series, but he's been rendered a bench player for years now. Here's a good example, why is Kyle Lowry getting 90 million and Rondo picking up minimums? Same draft, same injury history, same high IQ and coachability questions. One guy spent his off-seasons bricking 3s to the point where he damaged all the balls in the gym (as per David Thorpe), the other let his inability to shoot live in his head and didn't even try. As a result, Rondo's accomplishments that you bring up here ended the minute he was traded out of a major TV market. Sound like anyone?

That was against Miami but I get your point now. Then you look further into it and you see in other series 19.0|12.0|7.3 .....14.1|12.7|7.4...20.7|11.8|6.3...14.8|10.2|6.2...20.9|11.3|6.9 then that ACL a bit later and he never returned to that level. Let's not underestimate Rondo (but yeah with his character....no thank you! )..Those Rondo numbers are really "BenSimmonsesque "
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