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Simmons: Yes or No?

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Simmons: Yes or No?

Yes, landing Ben Simmons would be huge, go for it Masai
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31%
GTFO Simmons is overrated and a cancer, do not want
172
69%
 
Total votes: 251

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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#201 » by Clay Davis » Thu Sep 9, 2021 10:14 pm

lolwut wrote:
ash_k wrote:
lolwut wrote:Just because he hasn't been recognized by awards doesn't necessarily mean he's underrated. The problem lies in the fact that there are limited amounts of awards that can be given out. It's a zero-sum game. If OG wins something, then that means another player will be left out. Does that player now become underrated?

We see him 82-game per year, we know what he has to offer.
OG had another opportunity to cement his status as a great defender against the Celtics but that did not really stand out (Tatum&Brown).
FVV is the best PG defender IMO(he is on the radar now with that 19.6ppg) but don't expect him nor OG to make defensive teams if we end up 10th seed. Those accolades go 95+% of the time to players on teams up in standings. That's the way it has always been! Best players win games.
This is LeBron 5× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2009–2013)| He has not been the same great defender since and others have surpassed him in that regard)
I can remember hearing JJ Redick on his podcast talking about how Jrue Holiday was an underrated defender (just a few months ago) and I was like :
Are you sure ??.....2× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2018, 2021) and NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2019) ? and we saw him and the Pelicans lock down Lillard in the playoffs (locked him up! ).

So doesn't that mean accolades are not a good measure of individual performance?
He's saying some all-defense selections are circumstantial (Drummond being selected when there aren't elite bigs), that some of them are because of team performance, yet wants us to believe him when he says that Simmons's defensive accolades are indicative of excellent performance. But apparently it's our fault lol.

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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#202 » by ash_k » Thu Sep 9, 2021 10:18 pm

lolwut wrote:
ash_k wrote:
lolwut wrote:Just because he hasn't been recognized by awards doesn't necessarily mean he's underrated. The problem lies in the fact that there are limited amounts of awards that can be given out. It's a zero-sum game. If OG wins something, then that means another player will be left out. Does that player now become underrated?

We see him 82-game per year, we know what he has to offer.
OG had another opportunity to cement his status as a great defender against the Celtics but that did not really stand out (Tatum&Brown).
FVV is the best PG defender IMO(he is on the radar now with that 19.6ppg) but don't expect him nor OG to make defensive teams if we end up 10th seed. Those accolades go 95+% of the time to players on teams up in standings. That's the way it has always been! Best players win games.
This is LeBron 5× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2009–2013)| He has not been the same great defender since and others have surpassed him in that regard)
I can remember hearing JJ Redick on his podcast talking about how Jrue Holiday was an underrated defender (just a few months ago) and I was like :
Are you sure ??.....2× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2018, 2021) and NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2019) ? and we saw him and the Pelicans lock down Lillard in the playoffs (locked him up! :lol: ).

So doesn't that mean accolades are not a good measure of individual performance?

The NBA has always been like " how good of a player are you...really... if you can't win games? "
"If y'all are such great defenders, how come your team is 10th seed/at the bottom of the league?"
DPOY Rudy Gobert (1st seed Utah) - DPOY runner up and MVP runner up(1st seed Philly).
Both teams have 2xAll stars (+ Conley to thank him for his career :lol: )
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#203 » by sidsid » Thu Sep 9, 2021 10:56 pm

OakleyDokely wrote:
ATLTimekeeper wrote:Rajon Rondo all-defensive 1st, 2nd, 3rd teams from 2008-2012. All-Star from 2010-2013. 13th in all-time assists. Future hall-of-fame player. He's been a nonentity or bench player through his prime. Pretty much a carbon copy of Ben, couldn't get along with Doc Rivers, needed 3 hall of famers to cover up for his flaws, his defense was immediately noted to be less important once he no longer had KG covering his back.

fwiw, the Raptors were trying to trade Lowry for Rondo back in 2013 after the Knicks trade fell through. Would have been an absolute disaster. The Raptors also wanted Kyrie Irving after he demanded out of Cleveland. Would have been a horrendous debacle. Sometimes our FO has really bad ideas, and they're saved by being unable to get a deal done. This looks like another one of those.
Rondo in his prime also played during a time when outside shooting wasn't nearly as important as it is today. As we've seen, Rondo is a lot easier to exploit in the modern game and he isn't nearly as impactful as he once was.


It was still important to space the floor though, it's just that the 4 out minimum wasn't as stratified. To be fair to Rondo here, it's pairing him with Perkins that really hurt them.

Digressing here, but I'm absolutely convinced that old pick & pop exclusive Calderon wins them that 'chip and they don't lose more than 3 games doing it. One of the greatest 3 point shooters of all time opens up the lanes that were closed for Pierce and Allen. Very few players who are more overrated than Rondo was.

Back on topic. Hiding Rondo in the dunkers spot is a much bigger problem than your 6'9 PF in Ben Simmons, who can be used in many different ways from there (p&r roll man, alley oop threat, cutting threat, o rebounder, dive, etc.)
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#204 » by vini_vidi_vici » Fri Sep 10, 2021 12:24 pm

sidsid wrote:Back on topic. Hiding Rondo in the dunkers spot is a much bigger problem than your 6'9 PF in Ben Simmons, who can be used in many different ways from there (p&r roll man, alley oop threat, cutting threat, o rebounder, dive, etc.)


I actually disagree here.

The dunkers spot you wont be cutting/diving/PnR. You will be standing, hoping your defender gets sucked in on drives, and its dumped to you for a layup/dunk. You are not creating anything and reliant on those around you.

But to your point you can put him in those scenarios, so lets look at that.

- PnR Roller, he had 23 possessions at .87, to put him in the 14th percentile, hes that awful even on limited atts.
- Cutter, 110 possessions at 1.10, which puts him in the 20th percentile.
- AlleyOops are hardly a huge boon, and at such low volume its almost irrelevant even in terms of Opps having to be aware.
- OREB is nice, but most teams incl. the Raps eschew them for transition D. This is evident over a league wide trend, and ive spammed alot about it.

The thing is, his best plays are all 1v1 with the ball in his hands (ISOs/PostUps, 90+ percentile when using ASTs too). So lets take out the ASTs.

ISOs hes in the 75th percentile (which is good right?), but because its such an inefficient finish, hes only scoring at 100pp100.
PostUps hes in the 55th percentile, but again because its an inefficient finish, hes only socring at 96pp100.

Just to colour that abit for ppl, OKC had the worst ORTG at 102.8pp100. In the POs, only the Heat scored at a worse rate, 95.4pp100. So were not advocating for anything efficient. Its why I used to rail on DD, because his most effective was in areas where league wide, its the most inefficient. Despite that, DD was among the elite, and it got even better as his facilitating grew.

Ben is awful at transition, something you would intuitively think he should be good at.

See the thing with Ben is, sure there are ways to unlock/exploit his strengths, but at a max contract youre likely betting on hope rather than actual substance. Its not just can/will he shoot, which is a problem that extends to his other issues (ex: he could be better at scoring off driving because he is a good ball handler, but he isnt). Hes actually pretty avg in terms of facilitating on those drives (renowned playmaker OG, gets more ASTs per drive), but thats another discussion.

So youre left with a guy who plays better with the ball in his hands, who wont shoot outside 10ft, is a slightly above average creator (despite my issues with how he gets ASTs), that sucks off the ball and in transition. His defense is his calling card, but he also plays with arguably the best defender in the L (I believe he is, but I understand its subjective) who is also a big (they have "most importance" on DRTG).

I would however take Simmons, like anyone in the L, for the right price (its just mine is substantially lower than the rumours of Moreys ask/s).
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#205 » by Harcore Fenton Mun » Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:30 pm

Not that I have much faith in him with the shooting, but he's throwing up a lot of deep shots this summer. Who knows how that translates into NBA games, given his history. At least he's doing it in runs as apposed to set shots.



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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#206 » by ash_k » Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:51 pm

Harcore Fenton Mun wrote:Not that I have much faith in him with the shooting, but he's throwing up a lot of deep shots this summer. Who knows how that translates into NBA games, given his history. At least he's doing it in runs as apposed to set shots.





His only expectation should be to get that free throw shooting at 70%, to keep attacking the rim. Any FT shooting highlight? :lol:
I still don't believe those jump shots are that necessary for him. He is not going to take 4 or 5 of them per game all sudden (maybe 2?).

Without a facilitator and defender like Ben, Seth Curry could not have done those insane under-the-radar shooting numbers 21.0ppg|60.8 FG%|59.1 3P% against the Hawks. Seth was not the one running after Trae.
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#207 » by Harcore Fenton Mun » Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:28 pm

ash_k wrote:His only expectation should be to get that free throw shooting at 70%, to keep attacking the rim. Any FT shooting highlight? :lol:
I still don't believe those jump shots are that necessary for him. He is not going to take 4 or 5 of them per game all sudden (maybe 2?).

Without a facilitator and defender like Ben, Seth Curry could not have done those insane under-the-radar shooting numbers 21.0ppg|60.8 FG%|59.1 3P% against the Hawks. Seth was not the one running after Trae.

Yeah, it still doesn't look like he has a lot of faith in it.

That's why I buy that he's not shooting with his dominant hand. If that's the case he's capped at Lebron-lite numbers from the line and deep. He'll never never be a guy you want shooting from either of those positions.
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#208 » by Bobby Plump » Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:37 pm

I would choose Bill Simmons over Ben Simmons. Bill has a sense of humor.
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#209 » by vini_vidi_vici » Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:44 pm

I dont believe in these small samples/anecdotes but.....

Seth Curry had a 68.9 TS% without Ben Simmons. The Sixers were better when Seth was on without Ben, than with him.

Edit:Image

Maybe more Seth without Ben was the answer??
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#210 » by ash_k » Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:51 pm

Harcore Fenton Mun wrote:
ash_k wrote:His only expectation should be to get that free throw shooting at 70%, to keep attacking the rim. Any FT shooting highlight? :lol:
I still don't believe those jump shots are that necessary for him. He is not going to take 4 or 5 of them per game all sudden (maybe 2?).

Without a facilitator and defender like Ben, Seth Curry could not have done those insane under-the-radar shooting numbers 21.0ppg|60.8 FG%|59.1 3P% against the Hawks. Seth was not the one running after Trae.

Yeah, it still doesn't look like he has a lot of faith in it.

That's why I buy that he's not shooting with his dominant hand. If that's the case he's capped at Lebron-lite numbers from the line and deep. He'll never never be a guy you want shooting from either of those positions.

I don't quite get that theory that shooting from the right-hand could make him shoot more(?).
Have you actually seen a video of him shooting right-handed, in an actual shooting session?
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#211 » by ash_k » Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:11 pm

vini_vidi_vici wrote:I dont believe in these small samples/anecdotes but.....

Seth Curry had a 68.9 TS% without Ben Simmons. The Sixers were better when Seth was on without Ben, than with him.

Edit:Image

Maybe more Seth without Ben was the answer??

Both were playing 30+ minutes.

Without Ben, are you implying that Seth could have done those insane shooting numbers running after Trae Young, while being the primary-ball handler? :lol: . Too many of y'all rely wait too much on analytics. Wait too much.
21.0ppg|60.8 FG%|59.1 3P% against the Hawks
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#212 » by Harcore Fenton Mun » Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:50 pm

ash_k wrote:I don't quite get that theory that shooting from the right-hand could make him shoot more(?).
Have you actually seen a video of him shooting right-handed, in an actual shooting session?

He shoots left, passes right, dunks right. He claims he's ambidextrous, but to me it just looks like didn't get the correct coaching early. It's like, you aren't ambidextrous if that's the only thing you do with that hand...and you don't even do that well.

It's a lot harder to shoot with your off hand, not many people can do that consistently under pressure. We see videos of him shooting. However, he's not throwing up shots like Rasheed Wallace, Larry Bird or Lebron James did in game.
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#213 » by ash_k » Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:14 pm

Harcore Fenton Mun wrote:
ash_k wrote:I don't quite get that theory that shooting from the right-hand could make him shoot more(?).
Have you actually seen a video of him shooting right-handed, in an actual shooting session?

He shoots left, passes right, dunks right. He claims he's ambidextrous, but to me it just looks like didn't get the correct coaching early. It's like, you aren't ambidextrous if that's the only thing you do with that hand...and you don't even do that well.

It's a lot harder to shoot with your off hand, not many people can do that consistently under pressure. We see videos of him shooting. However, he's not throwing up shots like Rasheed Wallace, Larry Bird or Lebron James did in game.

I just think the jump shooting discussion has been way overstated. It should have been much more about the FT% .
I have brought those playoffs series numbers a few times, but how much more do you really need from a DPOY player? how much more?
14.8ppg|10.2rpg|9.2apg |64.0FG% |21.6 FT%
18.2ppg|10.6ppg|9.0apg 49.0FG% |67 FT%
17.2ppg|6.6ppg|7.6apg|62.8FG%|57 FT%

Nobody can do 30|10|10 while being DPOY. Someone with such numbers while being DPOY should be considered the greatest player of all time! Just imagine if Westbrook was the best perimeter defender in the league while doing his 22.2|11.5|11.7 that would be insane(we should then look for blood samples' results :lol: ).

18-10-10 while being DPOY is more realistic like that 18.2ppg|10.6ppg|9.0apg 49.0FG% |67 FT% . That's still greatness, no?
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#214 » by Harcore Fenton Mun » Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:00 pm

ash_k wrote:I just think the jump shooting discussion has been way overstated. It should have been much more about the FT% .
I have brought those playoffs series numbers a few times, but how much more do you really need from a DPOY player? how much more?
14.8ppg|10.2rpg|9.2apg |64.0FG% |21.6 FT%
18.2ppg|10.6ppg|9.0apg 49.0FG% |67 FT%
17.2ppg|6.6ppg|7.6apg|62.8FG%|57 FT%

Nobody can do 30|10|10 while being DPOY. Someone with such numbers while being DPOY should be considered the greatest player of all time! Just imagine if Westbrook was the best perimeter defender in the league while doing his 22.2|11.5|11.7 that would be insane(we should then look for blood samples' results :lol: ).

18-10-10 while being DPOY is more realistic like that 18.2ppg|10.6ppg|9.0apg 49.0FG% |67 FT% . That's still greatness, no?

It bleeds over though, that's really the problem. As the pressure goes up, the issues get worse. It could be head gremlins, but I'm leaning towards non dominant hand at this point. It's not an easy fix either way.

But yeah, as long as you're buying him for what he is now it's all good. The asking price just has to match his current value.
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#215 » by sidsid » Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:09 pm

vini_vidi_vici wrote:
sidsid wrote:Back on topic. Hiding Rondo in the dunkers spot is a much bigger problem than your 6'9 PF in Ben Simmons, who can be used in many different ways from there (p&r roll man, alley oop threat, cutting threat, o rebounder, dive, etc.)


I actually disagree here.

The dunkers spot you wont be cutting/diving/PnR. You will be standing, hoping your defender gets sucked in on drives, and its dumped to you for a layup/dunk. You are not creating anything and reliant on those around you.

But to your point you can put him in those scenarios, so lets look at that.

- PnR Roller, he had 23 possessions at .87, to put him in the 14th percentile, hes that awful even on limited atts.
- Cutter, 110 possessions at 1.10, which puts him in the 20th percentile.
- AlleyOops are hardly a huge boon, and at such low volume its almost irrelevant even in terms of Opps having to be aware.
- OREB is nice, but most teams incl. the Raps eschew them for transition D. This is evident over a league wide trend, and ive spammed alot about it.

The thing is, his best plays are all 1v1 with the ball in his hands (ISOs/PostUps, 90+ percentile when using ASTs too). So lets take out the ASTs.

ISOs hes in the 75th percentile (which is good right?), but because its such an inefficient finish, hes only scoring at 100pp100.
PostUps hes in the 55th percentile, but again because its an inefficient finish, hes only socring at 96pp100.

Just to colour that abit for ppl, OKC had the worst ORTG at 102.8pp100. In the POs, only the Heat scored at a worse rate, 95.4pp100. So were not advocating for anything efficient. Its why I used to rail on DD, because his most effective was in areas where league wide, its the most inefficient. Despite that, DD was among the elite, and it got even better as his facilitating grew.

Ben is awful at transition, something you would intuitively think he should be good at.

See the thing with Ben is, sure there are ways to unlock/exploit his strengths, but at a max contract youre likely betting on hope rather than actual substance. Its not just can/will he shoot, which is a problem that extends to his other issues (ex: he could be better at scoring off driving because he is a good ball handler, but he isnt). Hes actually pretty avg in terms of facilitating on those drives (renowned playmaker OG, gets more ASTs per drive), but thats another discussion.

So youre left with a guy who plays better with the ball in his hands, who wont shoot outside 10ft, is a slightly above average creator (despite my issues with how he gets ASTs), that sucks off the ball and in transition. His defense is his calling card, but he also plays with arguably the best defender in the L (I believe he is, but I understand its subjective) who is also a big (they have "most importance" on DRTG).

I would however take Simmons, like anyone in the L, for the right price (its just mine is substantially lower than the rumours of Moreys ask/s).


Yes, he's a guy who's afraid of the ball even though his strengths are handling it. It impacts every part of his offensive game. He has no other offensive abilities, and since he's afraid to even finish in traffic, he becomes an even more predictable player. Pressure him, and you know he becomes a passer which you can exploit with turnovers. His value in any offensive situation is drastically reduced because of this.

To top this all off, he plays the majority of the game with a dominant center who he absolutely does not fit with, making offense even harder.

Then in the playoffs, this gets even worse as the hack-a-Ben 4th quarters come into play and he doesn't even attempt to *dunk the ball* let alone handle it. How many twitter memes about 2 minute bench players attempting more field goals than him during the playoff 4ths did we see?

Now... What if you just get him to improve something like FTs and that gets him to start looking for his offense? What does he do on off-ball screens then? Does he make himself a target in space more often or slink into a shadow? Does he do bullet volleyball passes like Gasol as soon as he gets a pass, or does he attack the basket? Does he lean into contact in transition or wheel around to slow the play down?

What if Giannis, who still can't shoot FTs or hit 3s, avoided the ball all the time in the playoffs? What if he was as non-existent off-ball on offense? They lose in the first round.

Anyway, what you put down there is *all the areas of easy improvement* you can get out of a guy with a great set of starting tools with even minor growth. I know, he has shown no growth since he started (that's why trading him for Siakam is bad). A trade like this is for one of those "new scenery, new player" type deals. Distressed assets don't become available because they're currently great.

If the deal is for Fred and filler, that's an easy gamble to take, unless you think another high potential ceiling distressed asset is going to come into play later. The problem is that the deal would more likely be for Fred and our unprotected pick next year and maybe more, which is too much high ceiling capital to give up and why I don't see it happening.
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#216 » by dj-Sequence » Sat Sep 11, 2021 8:01 pm

I only said yes to do the trade if it is for Dragic, Bouche and a future first and swap...
If the deal includes Siakam or VV.. GTFOH...
Morey is delusional in thinking that he will
Strike gold again like he did trading Harden who is a far more superior player... so expecting the same
For someone who cant shoot and has not put the effort in at this stage to improve... And had 0 attempts in 9 straight playoff games in the same season... Making 200 mill... Is sadly not seeing the flaws in his player and is totally overvaluing Simmons...
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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#217 » by alienchild » Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:51 pm

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Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#218 » by deeps6x » Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:10 pm

No, just like I voted no to Trudeau.
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