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Lebron: Raps should retire Derozan’s jersey

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Should #10 be retired for the Raptors?

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Total votes: 189

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Re: Lebron: Raps should retire Derozan’s jersey 

Post#61 » by raptoradical » Tue Sep 7, 2021 4:11 pm

Ok so if we're saying DeRozan's jersey can be retired because of his dedication and accomplishments, than why not Vince? A bit of a double standard no?

I'd say it goes..

1. Lowry
2. Vince
3. DeRozan

And frankly I'd say this is the reason we're not retiring DeRozan's jersey. If you consider DeRozan for his accomplishments, you have to consider Vince. As we know It's just Lowry with the chip, but that's just the truth imo
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Lebron: Raps should retire Derozan’s jersey 

Post#62 » by kj_ » Tue Sep 7, 2021 4:32 pm

Fan favourite that loved playing here and was really good. Yeah, hang it up on the same day as Lowry. They rise together.

Vince? Some other time or not at all is good with me.


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Re: Lebron: Raps should retire Derozan’s jersey 

Post#63 » by ontnut » Tue Sep 7, 2021 4:32 pm

To me, retiring a jersey requires 2 things: Winning at the highest level, and longevity.
Only 1 guys fits that, Lowry.
You don't retire a guy that played for one season and left, there's NO WAY you retire #2.
Only B-tier franchises retire guys because of sentimentality, or longevity on its own (OKC and Collison). So you probably don't retire either Vince or Demar.

Now, there's an argument to be made that the Leafs retired Gilmour, Clark and Sundin numbers. None of those guys won a cup. But 2 are likely HOF guys, and Clark is the Canadian born hero. Sundin's longevity and accomplishment as a top tier player is greater than Derozan's but it's close.

So my thoughts are: #7 gets retired for sure. #10 is a 65% chance for retirement (I think he does get it, but I personally wouldn't have retired them, just like I wouldn't have retired #93, #17 or #13). #15 doesn't get retired but he's got like a 40% chance, and #2 for sure doesn't get retired it's like 5% here.

Many teams do a wall of honour, and I think that's where #10 and #15 belong. #2 would have an outside shot at that, but I still don't believe he gets it.
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Re: Lebron: Raps should retire Derozan’s jersey 

Post#64 » by refshateRaps » Tue Sep 7, 2021 4:34 pm

We are seriously diluting jersey retiring if this is the bar
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Re: Lebron: Raps should retire Derozan’s jersey 

Post#65 » by VC15Era » Tue Sep 7, 2021 4:35 pm

if Zach freaking Randolph and Tony Allen can get there jerseys retired .... I think Derozen and Carter should be as well.
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Re: Lebron: Raps should retire Derozan’s jersey 

Post#66 » by raptorforlife88 » Tue Sep 7, 2021 5:44 pm

refshateRaps wrote:We are seriously diluting jersey retiring if this is the bar


No we're not. At all.

The Bulls retired Jerry Sloan who was a two time All-Star. The Cav retired Ilgauskas who was a two time all-star and Austin Carr who made one. Mavericks have retired Derek Harper (no all-star games) and Rolando Blackman. The Nuggest retired Fat Lever. The Spurs retired Bruce Bowen and the Jazz retired Jeff Hornacek. The Grizzlies are about to retire Randolph and Tony Allen. That is not close to a comprehensive list of guys who were not superstars but had their jerseys retired for one reason or another.

Like it's not hard to look at list of retired players by team and realize within about ten seconds that this doesn't come close to diluting jersey retiring. Cmon people this isn't hard to access. There's a whole wikipedia article for you too look at and confirm that it's not being diluted.

Derozan pretty easily clears the lower tiers of players who've had their jerseys retired in the league.
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Re: Lebron: Raps should retire Derozan’s jersey 

Post#67 » by rapstarter » Tue Sep 7, 2021 5:54 pm

raptorforlife88 wrote:
refshateRaps wrote:We are seriously diluting jersey retiring if this is the bar


No we're not. At all.

The Bulls retired Jerry Sloan who was a two time All-Star. The Cav retired Ilgauskas who was a two time all-star and Austin Carr who made one. Mavericks have retired Derek Harper (no all-star games) and Rolando Blackman. The Nuggest retired Fat Lever. The Spurs retired Bruce Bowen and the Jazz retired Jeff Hornacek. The Grizzlies are about to retire Randolph and Tony Allen. That is not close to a comprehensive list of guys who were not superstars but had their jerseys retired for one reason or another.

Like it's not hard to look at list of retired players by team and realize within about ten seconds that this doesn't come close to diluting jersey retiring. Cmon people this isn't hard to access. There's a whole wikipedia article for you too look at and confirm that it's not being diluted.

Derozan pretty easily clears the lower tiers of players who've had their jerseys retired in the league.


He clears the lowest tier of players, but that doesn't mean he's not lowering the bar. Sure, he would be a better candidate for a jersey retirement than MJ or Marino for the Heat, so what? And I think guys like Bruce Bowen are definitely more worthy of their franchise's jersey retirement than DeMar is for us.
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Re: Lebron: Raps should retire Derozan’s jersey 

Post#68 » by ItsDanger » Tue Sep 7, 2021 5:55 pm

No. Team should have a high standard for retirement. Makes it more meaningful. Lakers retired numbers sets the bar IMO.
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Re: Lebron: Raps should retire Derozan’s jersey 

Post#69 » by raptorforlife88 » Tue Sep 7, 2021 6:04 pm

rapstarter wrote:
raptorforlife88 wrote:
refshateRaps wrote:We are seriously diluting jersey retiring if this is the bar


No we're not. At all.

The Bulls retired Jerry Sloan who was a two time All-Star. The Cav retired Ilgauskas who was a two time all-star and Austin Carr who made one. Mavericks have retired Derek Harper (no all-star games) and Rolando Blackman. The Nuggest retired Fat Lever. The Spurs retired Bruce Bowen and the Jazz retired Jeff Hornacek. The Grizzlies are about to retire Randolph and Tony Allen. That is not close to a comprehensive list of guys who were not superstars but had their jerseys retired for one reason or another.

Like it's not hard to look at list of retired players by team and realize within about ten seconds that this doesn't come close to diluting jersey retiring. Cmon people this isn't hard to access. There's a whole wikipedia article for you too look at and confirm that it's not being diluted.

Derozan pretty easily clears the lower tiers of players who've had their jerseys retired in the league.


He clears the lowest tier of players, but that doesn't mean he's not lowering the bar. Sure, he would be a better candidate for a jersey retirement than MJ or Marino for the Heat, so what? And I think guys like Bruce Bowen are definitely more worthy for their franchise's jersey retirement than DeMar is for us.


How is Bruce Bowen worthy for being like the fifth or sixth best player on Spurs championship teams, getting to play with three other HOFers to get outsized credit for winning there. He's definitely in the lowest tier of retired guys.
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Re: Lebron: Raps should retire Derozan’s jersey 

Post#70 » by rapstarter » Tue Sep 7, 2021 6:11 pm

raptorforlife88 wrote:
rapstarter wrote:
raptorforlife88 wrote:
No we're not. At all.

The Bulls retired Jerry Sloan who was a two time All-Star. The Cav retired Ilgauskas who was a two time all-star and Austin Carr who made one. Mavericks have retired Derek Harper (no all-star games) and Rolando Blackman. The Nuggest retired Fat Lever. The Spurs retired Bruce Bowen and the Jazz retired Jeff Hornacek. The Grizzlies are about to retire Randolph and Tony Allen. That is not close to a comprehensive list of guys who were not superstars but had their jerseys retired for one reason or another.

Like it's not hard to look at list of retired players by team and realize within about ten seconds that this doesn't come close to diluting jersey retiring. Cmon people this isn't hard to access. There's a whole wikipedia article for you too look at and confirm that it's not being diluted.

Derozan pretty easily clears the lower tiers of players who've had their jerseys retired in the league.


He clears the lowest tier of players, but that doesn't mean he's not lowering the bar. Sure, he would be a better candidate for a jersey retirement than MJ or Marino for the Heat, so what? And I think guys like Bruce Bowen are definitely more worthy for their franchise's jersey retirement than DeMar is for us.


How is Bruce Bowen worthy for being like the fifth or sixth best player on Spurs championship teams, getting to play with three other HOFers to get outsized credit for winning there. He's definitely in the lowest tier of retired guys.


Because he's associated with those championships and particularly the defense they played. In contrast, what is DeMar associated with? Embarrassingly bad individual playoffs performances at both ends. Very often, he was actually HURTING the team.

In any case, the point is DeMar was better than the worst players who had their jersey retired, but that doesn't mean he's not lowering the bar. Just because Tony Allen got his jersey retired, it doesn't mean we should have the same standards. It's not like we have to meet certain quota. Retire Lowry's number and leave it at that.
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Re: Lebron: Raps should retire Derozan’s jersey 

Post#71 » by Danny1616 » Tue Sep 7, 2021 6:24 pm

Can't stand Lebron, but that being said only Lowry and Derozan deserve to have their jersey retired. No one else.

Lowry deserves a statue as well.
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Re: Lebron: Raps should retire Derozan’s jersey 

Post#72 » by Rapsalot » Tue Sep 7, 2021 6:27 pm

I’m for doing something for our Very Good or great short time players KLaw. But only one I retire would be KLow. Time, culture change, excellent play both regular season and playoffs. That is Jersey worthy.
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Re: Lebron: Raps should retire Derozan’s jersey 

Post#73 » by Danny1616 » Tue Sep 7, 2021 6:31 pm

rapstarter wrote:
raptorforlife88 wrote:
rapstarter wrote:
He clears the lowest tier of players, but that doesn't mean he's not lowering the bar. Sure, he would be a better candidate for a jersey retirement than MJ or Marino for the Heat, so what? And I think guys like Bruce Bowen are definitely more worthy for their franchise's jersey retirement than DeMar is for us.


How is Bruce Bowen worthy for being like the fifth or sixth best player on Spurs championship teams, getting to play with three other HOFers to get outsized credit for winning there. He's definitely in the lowest tier of retired guys.


Because he's associated with those championships and particularly the defense they played. In contrast, what is DeMar associated with? Embarrassingly bad individual playoffs performances at both ends. Very often, he was actually HURTING the team.

In any case, the point is DeMar was better than the worst players who had their jersey retired, but that doesn't mean he's not lowering the bar. Just because Tony Allen got his jersey retired, it doesn't mean we should have the same standards. It's not like we have to meet certain quota. Retire Lowry's number and leave it at that.


Huh?

Derozan was the scoring leader for the greatest period in franchise history when we were a perennial 50+ win team. He was a part of multiple deep playoff runs although we could not get over the hump. Derozan holds multiple franchise records and played the longest with the franchise out of any player. Derozan isn't some role player like Allen, he was a 4 time all-star with our team.

Let's look at teams that retired their stars even though they couldn't win a chip:

Atlanta - retired Wilkins, Maravich, Mutombo.

Nets - retired Petrovic, Kidd.

Cavaliers - retired Ilgauskus, Nance, Price, Thurmond, Daughtery

Mavericks - retired Blackman, Davis, Harper

Nuggets - retired English, Lever, Mutombo

Warriors - retired Mullin, Attles, Barry, Thurmond

Rockets - retired Yao

Pacers - retired Miller

Heat - retired Hardaway

Knicks - retired Ewing

Thunder/Seattle - retired Collison, Haywood

Sixers - retired Iverson, Cheeks, Barkley

Suns - retired Nash, Marjerle, Barkley, Johnson

Kings - retired Vlade, Webber, Peja, Richmond

Jazz - retired Malone, Stockton, Hornacek, Dantley
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Re: Lebron: Raps should retire Derozan’s jersey 

Post#74 » by rapstarter » Tue Sep 7, 2021 6:37 pm

Danny1616 wrote:
rapstarter wrote:
raptorforlife88 wrote:
How is Bruce Bowen worthy for being like the fifth or sixth best player on Spurs championship teams, getting to play with three other HOFers to get outsized credit for winning there. He's definitely in the lowest tier of retired guys.


Because he's associated with those championships and particularly the defense they played. In contrast, what is DeMar associated with? Embarrassingly bad individual playoffs performances at both ends. Very often, he was actually HURTING the team.

In any case, the point is DeMar was better than the worst players who had their jersey retired, but that doesn't mean he's not lowering the bar. Just because Tony Allen got his jersey retired, it doesn't mean we should have the same standards. It's not like we have to meet certain quota. Retire Lowry's number and leave it at that.


Huh?

Derozan was the scoring leader for the greatest period in franchise history when we were a perennial 50+ win team. He was a part of multiple deep playoff runs although we could not get over the hump. Derozan holds multiple franchise records and played the longest with the franchise out of any player.

Let's look at teams that retired their stars even though they couldn't win a chip:

Atlanta - retired Wilkins, Maravich, Mutombo.

Nets - retired Petrovic, Kidd.

Cavaliers - retired Ilgauskus, Nance, Price, Thurmond, Daughtery

Mavericks - retired Blackman, Davis, Harper

Nuggets - retired English, Lever, Mutombo

Warriors - retired Mullin, Attles, Barry, Thurmond

Rockets - retired Yao

Pacers - retired Miller

Heat - retired Hardaway

Knicks - retired Ewing

Thunder/Seattle - retired Collison, Haywood

Sixers - retired Iverson, Cheeks, Barkley

Suns - retired Nash, Marjerle, Barkley, Johnson

Kings - retired Vlade, Webber, Peja, Richmond

Jazz - retired Malone, Stockton, Hornacek, Dantley


Sure, some of them are bad selections, but most of these are bonafide HOFers who were actually carrying their franchises which is the opposite of what DeMar did for us. I'm not faulting him for not winning the championship (although that would have greatly helped). He was actually carried by his team in the playoffs, and he was very often the reason we barely advanced or got humiliated. What was DeMar's defining moment for us? The second dunk in the Slam Dunk contest? Getting traded for Kawhi? Speaking of LeBron, it would make more sense if we retired his jersey like Miami did for MJ.

Again, never said DeMar would be among the very worst players to get their jersey retired. He makes more sense than Tony Allen did. I just happen to think the bar has to be higher, and just because the likes of Tony Allen got their jerseys retired, we should be lowering our bar.
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Re: Lebron: Raps should retire Derozan’s jersey 

Post#75 » by OakleyDokely » Tue Sep 7, 2021 6:39 pm

Lets build some statues. Why do only the Leafs get them? You can do:

Kawhi's shot
Vince doing his windmill dunk
Lowry and DeMar to honor the we the north era

There are a lot of ways to honor players. Even a ring of honor like the Jays do makes a lot of sense.

I'd save jersey retirement for the true franchise greats like Lowry and Masai.
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Re: Lebron: Raps should retire Derozan’s jersey 

Post#76 » by BryceMaxJames » Tue Sep 7, 2021 6:41 pm

Nope, he didn't get the job done. If we are gonna retire Demar, we gotta retire Kawhi as well.
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Re: Lebron: Raps should retire Derozan’s jersey 

Post#77 » by SharoneWright » Tue Sep 7, 2021 6:47 pm

And Marc Gasol says Jose Calderon is a no brainer! Not even a real question.
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Re: Lebron: Raps should retire Derozan’s jersey 

Post#78 » by Parataxis » Tue Sep 7, 2021 6:54 pm

bboyskinnylegs wrote:Kyle is the only one that deserves to get his jersey retired imo. Next on the list is Kawhi. No one else as of yet. If we're going to take championships out of the equation, it cheapens everything and we're back to celebrating Atlantic Division banners again. There are other ways to recognize former Raptor greats that don't include retiring jerseys.


Retiring Kawhi's number would be a joke. Teams don't retire numbers of rental players, no matter how good they are.
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Re: Lebron: Raps should retire Derozan’s jersey 

Post#79 » by Danny1616 » Tue Sep 7, 2021 7:05 pm

rapstarter wrote:
Danny1616 wrote:
rapstarter wrote:
Because he's associated with those championships and particularly the defense they played. In contrast, what is DeMar associated with? Embarrassingly bad individual playoffs performances at both ends. Very often, he was actually HURTING the team.

In any case, the point is DeMar was better than the worst players who had their jersey retired, but that doesn't mean he's not lowering the bar. Just because Tony Allen got his jersey retired, it doesn't mean we should have the same standards. It's not like we have to meet certain quota. Retire Lowry's number and leave it at that.


Huh?

Derozan was the scoring leader for the greatest period in franchise history when we were a perennial 50+ win team. He was a part of multiple deep playoff runs although we could not get over the hump. Derozan holds multiple franchise records and played the longest with the franchise out of any player.

Let's look at teams that retired their stars even though they couldn't win a chip:

Atlanta - retired Wilkins, Maravich, Mutombo.

Nets - retired Petrovic, Kidd.

Cavaliers - retired Ilgauskus, Nance, Price, Thurmond, Daughtery

Mavericks - retired Blackman, Davis, Harper

Nuggets - retired English, Lever, Mutombo

Warriors - retired Mullin, Attles, Barry, Thurmond

Rockets - retired Yao

Pacers - retired Miller

Heat - retired Hardaway

Knicks - retired Ewing

Thunder/Seattle - retired Collison, Haywood

Sixers - retired Iverson, Cheeks, Barkley

Suns - retired Nash, Marjerle, Barkley, Johnson

Kings - retired Vlade, Webber, Peja, Richmond

Jazz - retired Malone, Stockton, Hornacek, Dantley


Sure, some of them are bad selections, but most of these are bonafide HOFers who were actually carrying their franchises which is the opposite of what DeMar did for us. I'm not faulting him for not winning the championship (although that would have greatly helped). He was actually carried by his team in the playoffs, and he was very often the reason we barely advanced or got humiliated. What was DeMar's defining moment for us? The second dunk in the Slam Dunk contest? Getting traded for Kawhi? Speaking of LeBron, it would make more sense if we retired his jersey like Miami did for MJ.

Again, never said DeMar would be among the very worst players to get their jersey retired. He makes more sense than Tony Allen did. I just happen to think the bar has to be higher, and just because the likes of Tony Allen got their jerseys retired, we should be lowering our bar.


More than half of the players listed have not made the hall of fame.

Retired jerseys are based on production for a single franchise. After Lowry, Derozan was the most productive player to wear a Raptor jersey over a long period. He holds multiple franchise records, and was a key cog in our 50+ win teams, and was part of our ECF finals run in 2016. Those aren't meaningless accomplishments.

Most memorable moment? Probably his 52 point franchise record game against the Bucks and his big game against Detroit in 2018 on national TV with that huge game closing dunk.



While had his playoff disappointments, can't forget some of his more memorable playoff games:







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Re: Lebron: Raps should retire Derozan’s jersey 

Post#80 » by kalel123 » Tue Sep 7, 2021 7:29 pm

raptoradical wrote:Ok so if we're saying DeRozan's jersey can be retired because of his dedication and accomplishments, than why not Vince? A bit of a double standard no?

I'd say it goes..

1. Lowry
2. Vince
3. DeRozan

And frankly I'd say this is the reason we're not retiring DeRozan's jersey. If you consider DeRozan for his accomplishments, you have to consider Vince. As we know It's just Lowry with the chip, but that's just the truth imo


Because Vince Carter's accomplishment is tarnished and more than completely offset by what he did before he left. You don't get to pick and choose what you want to consider of a player's legacy, you look at what the guy did from beginning to end and that puts Carter at the far bottom of that list or rather out of it altogether.

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