ImageImageImageImageImage

Masai: We have a Young Team and there will be Growing Pains

Moderators: Alfred, 7 Footer, Reeko, lebron stopper, niQ, Morris_Shatford, DG88, gojoorange

Harcore Fenton Mun
General Manager
Posts: 8,688
And1: 5,104
Joined: Jul 17, 2006

Re: Masai: We have a Young Team and there will be Growing Pains 

Post#441 » by Harcore Fenton Mun » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:12 pm

Pointgod wrote:Celtics are an interesting team because it looks like they will be a defence first team this season. I don’t necessarily think they got better but they were already way ahead of us. I think they’re a sneaky team what could move up 1 or 2 spots or stay at the 7th. Also getting Schroeder for 5 million is a **** steal. The guy can flat out play, like Simmons people just let the playoff narratives take hold instead of evaluating players objectively. Stevens shouldn’t have gotten his GM spot, perfect example of failing upwards. I think Udoka will be fine. He’s coaching a team that has played with each other for the last 4 seasons? Boston will be fine.

He's not Stevens, that's really all that matters in my mind. His play calling will probably be worse, all things considered.

Schroeder's on a good contract, but he's gunning for a payday. That, with a new coach could spell issues if he's unhappy.

The east is so hard to project this year, lots of landmines with all the turnover in rosters. Not to mention it's two years of shortened offseason turnarounds. Rested teams will have a big advantage, injuries should be a factor. Depth will help smooth things out compared to top heavy or older teams. Missing the playoffs last year, might actually help us this year.
Image
User avatar
720
RealGM
Posts: 23,818
And1: 52,014
Joined: Nov 01, 2012
Location: Malton

Re: Masai: We have a Young Team and there will be Growing Pains 

Post#442 » by 720 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:12 pm

Clay Davis wrote:
720 wrote:
Clay Davis wrote:Okay I forgot how young Tatum and Brown are lol. Tatum is definitely high level, so is Brown, but despite their presence on the team the Celtics haven't felt like true contenders in the last few years and it still feels like they're like two or three pieces away from being contenders. Even then, I don't see them being better than the Nets, the Bucks, or the 76ers within the next two years or the Hawks after that.

The Celtics have two guys in their early 20s putting up monster numbers and both are locked up in long term deals. Those are the kind of pieces every rebuilding team would want on their roster. That's the kind of core many people here in this thread want. Give Masai a Tatum and Brown like duo and see what kind of magic he would pull off.


My entire point is that having mere pieces of the puzzle doesn't entail you're not treadmilling. The Celtics have been intending to contend for the past few seasons. You can twiddle around with the definition of 'treadmilling' but saying it just implies upside is rather vacuous, since you can't also imply some forms of upside are more restrictive or lower value than others... You'd need to work that into the definition too.

Sure, rebuilding teams would like them, but that's since it implies their rebuild is over as they have two young stars to build around. Fine and dandy, but if you don't surround them with the right talent and have a coherent plan to get it, you'll just be topping out at second round exits and feel pressured to reorganize your entire FO and coaching stuff, since it's clear you're essentially treadmilling. Getting close to being off the treadmill of not contending doesn't imply you're not treadmilling when you've been trying repetitively over three seasons to contend.

Sent from my moto g(8) power lite using RealGM mobile app

To that I already answered in my first reply. If you have an incompetant front office or coaching staff it doesn't matter what roster you have. But we don't have that. We have one of the best in both categories.

The hardest part of any rebuild is actually getting the top level talent. But once you do that's when you start to build around said talent and truly have a high ceiling (or trade for one but that's unreliable and this current market where a superstar is worth like 5+ picks it's pricey as well). You don't build around B level players because you hate losing for a couple seasons.
Image
We were right all along. #tWo
Run Barnes at point!
Jordan, Hakeem, Duncan, Curry, Lebron, Isiah, Dirk, Wade and Kobe. All drafted IN THE LOTTERY. That's a combined 29 championships.
User avatar
720
RealGM
Posts: 23,818
And1: 52,014
Joined: Nov 01, 2012
Location: Malton

Re: Masai: We have a Young Team and there will be Growing Pains 

Post#443 » by 720 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:16 pm

Having a 23 year old prospect that is putting up superstar numbers locked up to a long term deal is much better than whatever position we're currently in. It's as simple as that. It's not about the grass always being greener on the other side. It's just the reality of the situation.
Image
We were right all along. #tWo
Run Barnes at point!
Jordan, Hakeem, Duncan, Curry, Lebron, Isiah, Dirk, Wade and Kobe. All drafted IN THE LOTTERY. That's a combined 29 championships.
Pointgod
RealGM
Posts: 13,996
And1: 13,751
Joined: Jun 28, 2014

Re: Masai: We have a Young Team and there will be Growing Pains 

Post#444 » by Pointgod » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:17 pm

Los_29 wrote:
Pointgod wrote:
Harcore Fenton Mun wrote:I don't know of many situations that a rookie GM and Coach spell a guaranteed advancement in winning. They basically lost one of their best assets when Brad stepped away from behind the bench.

Also, that Smart's contract is this year plus another 77M, so 90M tied up in smart over the next five years. He'll be making almost 20M a year. People hate on Fred's contract, just imagine if he put up 13 points per and shot 33% from deep on six attempts per game. Brad's already making his mark as GM.

People are painting it like they are a sure thing this year, I don't know if I'd characterize them as such.


Celtics are an interesting team because it looks like they will be a defence first team this season. I don’t necessarily think they got better but they were already way ahead of us. I think they’re a sneaky team what could move up 1 or 2 spots or stay at the 7th. Also getting Schroeder for 5 million is a **** steal. The guy can flat out play, like Simmons people just let the playoff narratives take hold instead of evaluating players objectively. Stevens shouldn’t have gotten his GM spot, perfect example of failing upwards. I think Udoka will be fine. He’s coaching a team that has played with each other for the last 4 seasons? Boston will be fine.


If Schroeder could flat out play he wouldn't have signed for 5 million to be a likely bench player for a middling Eastern Conference team. When there is no market for a player that's often always a very bad sign.

Boston has a nice duo in Brown and Tatum but other then that their team is absolutely terrible. If a guy like Marcus Smart is your 3rd best player you're in a lot of trouble. I don't get why people think because you have a top 20 player you can't be a treadmill team. The Wizards have been a treadmill team for about 5 years now and during those 5 years they've had guys like Beal, Wall and Westbrook.

Boston has been a major disappointment and will likely be one again this year. I don't see them making it out of the 1st or 2nd round and if that's the case then do you really have a top 10 player? Top 10 players shouldn't be getting bounced in the 1st round.


Since drafting Jaylen Brown, the Celtics have had the following performance:
2017 - ECF
2018 - ECF
2019 - second round exit
2020 - ECF
2021 - first round exit.

I loath to give the Celtics any credit but there’s literally no way you can argue that this results have been disappointing. Their two best players haven’t even hit their prime yet. The problem is that the idiot Danny Ainge overvalued his assets and didn’t make a trade to put them over the top to beat Lebron. The Celtics would have been more successful if not for Danny Ainge.

Tatum is only 22 coming off of a 26, 7 and 4 season. It’s not inconceivable that he could have a Bradley Beal type season on the next couple of years and Brown is 24 coming off a 25,6 and 3 season. I think that’s he’s ceiling as a scorer but he can become more consistent and improve his defence. The Celtics can get improvements from their two best players and if their front office is willing to move assets, they can get that third star.
HumbleRen
Senior
Posts: 510
And1: 501
Joined: Jul 02, 2021
 

Re: Masai: We have a Young Team and there will be Growing Pains 

Post#445 » by HumbleRen » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:18 pm

720 wrote:Having a 23 year old prospect that is putting up superstar numbers locked up to a long term deal is much better than whatever position we're currently in. It's as simple as that. It's not about the grass always being greener on the other side. It's just the reality of the situation.


Thank you.
ATLTimekeeper
RealGM
Posts: 32,094
And1: 15,719
Joined: Apr 28, 2008

Re: Masai: We have a Young Team and there will be Growing Pains 

Post#446 » by ATLTimekeeper » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:27 pm

HumbleRen wrote:
720 wrote:Having a 23 year old prospect that is putting up superstar numbers locked up to a long term deal is much better than whatever position we're currently in. It's as simple as that. It's not about the grass always being greener on the other side. It's just the reality of the situation.


Thank you.


Reminds me of when the Wizards swept us with 21 year old Bradley Beal and 24 year old John Wall. What was the reality of that situation again?
User avatar
720
RealGM
Posts: 23,818
And1: 52,014
Joined: Nov 01, 2012
Location: Malton

Re: Masai: We have a Young Team and there will be Growing Pains 

Post#447 » by 720 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:30 pm

ATLTimekeeper wrote:
HumbleRen wrote:
720 wrote:Having a 23 year old prospect that is putting up superstar numbers locked up to a long term deal is much better than whatever position we're currently in. It's as simple as that. It's not about the grass always being greener on the other side. It's just the reality of the situation.


Thank you.


Reminds me of when the Wizards swept us with 21 year old Bradley Beal and 24 year old John Wall. What was the reality of that situation again?

Didn't know the Wizards had Masai and Nurse though.
Image
We were right all along. #tWo
Run Barnes at point!
Jordan, Hakeem, Duncan, Curry, Lebron, Isiah, Dirk, Wade and Kobe. All drafted IN THE LOTTERY. That's a combined 29 championships.
Harcore Fenton Mun
General Manager
Posts: 8,688
And1: 5,104
Joined: Jul 17, 2006

Re: Masai: We have a Young Team and there will be Growing Pains 

Post#448 » by Harcore Fenton Mun » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:42 pm

720 wrote:Having a 23 year old prospect that is putting up superstar numbers locked up to a long term deal is much better than whatever position we're currently in. It's as simple as that. It's not about the grass always being greener on the other side. It's just the reality of the situation.

They still didn't fix the depth issue from last year, that was really their achilleas. Boston's still a one unit team.
Image
User avatar
720
RealGM
Posts: 23,818
And1: 52,014
Joined: Nov 01, 2012
Location: Malton

Re: Masai: We have a Young Team and there will be Growing Pains 

Post#449 » by 720 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:44 pm

Harcore Fenton Mun wrote:
720 wrote:Having a 23 year old prospect that is putting up superstar numbers locked up to a long term deal is much better than whatever position we're currently in. It's as simple as that. It's not about the grass always being greener on the other side. It's just the reality of the situation.

They still didn't fix the depth issue from last year, that was really their achilleas. Boston's still a one unit team.

Forget Boston, think of the asset alone because in our rebuild what Boston's front office does with the talent is irrelevant. Having a 23 year old superstar prospect to build around is a better position to be in simply because you already have the hardest part of a rebuild covered (getting the top end talent).
Image
We were right all along. #tWo
Run Barnes at point!
Jordan, Hakeem, Duncan, Curry, Lebron, Isiah, Dirk, Wade and Kobe. All drafted IN THE LOTTERY. That's a combined 29 championships.
Harcore Fenton Mun
General Manager
Posts: 8,688
And1: 5,104
Joined: Jul 17, 2006

Re: Masai: We have a Young Team and there will be Growing Pains 

Post#450 » by Harcore Fenton Mun » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:54 pm

720 wrote:Forget Boston, think of the asset alone because in our rebuild what Boston's front office does with the talent is irrelevant. Having a 23 year old superstar prospect to build around is a better position to be in simply because you already have the hardest part of a rebuild covered.

Sure, Tatum and Brown are great assets. But it's a lot factors that go into making it work, a lot of luck too.

Like, if OG/Banes work out...we'd be in a similar position. With a way better team around them. Even GTJ has a shot at that conversation if things go right.
Image
User avatar
720
RealGM
Posts: 23,818
And1: 52,014
Joined: Nov 01, 2012
Location: Malton

Re: Masai: We have a Young Team and there will be Growing Pains 

Post#451 » by 720 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:55 pm

Harcore Fenton Mun wrote:
720 wrote:Forget Boston, think of the asset alone because in our rebuild what Boston's front office does with the talent is irrelevant. Having a 23 year old superstar prospect to build around is a better position to be in simply because you already have the hardest part of a rebuild covered.

Sure, Tatum and Brown are great assets. But it's a lot factors that go into making it work, a lot of luck too.

Like, if OG/Banes work out...we'd be in a similar position. With a way better team around them. Even GTJ has a shot at that conversation if things go right.

GTJ does not have a shot at that conversation I'm sorry.

We'll see with Barnes and OG. I'm a huge OG believer and think he'll make a jump this year in production simply because they'll give him more opportunities on offense. As for Barnes, I'm glad that Nurse said he's going to get a lot of playing time.
Image
We were right all along. #tWo
Run Barnes at point!
Jordan, Hakeem, Duncan, Curry, Lebron, Isiah, Dirk, Wade and Kobe. All drafted IN THE LOTTERY. That's a combined 29 championships.
Pointgod
RealGM
Posts: 13,996
And1: 13,751
Joined: Jun 28, 2014

Re: Masai: We have a Young Team and there will be Growing Pains 

Post#452 » by Pointgod » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:59 pm

ATLTimekeeper wrote:
HumbleRen wrote:
720 wrote:Having a 23 year old prospect that is putting up superstar numbers locked up to a long term deal is much better than whatever position we're currently in. It's as simple as that. It's not about the grass always being greener on the other side. It's just the reality of the situation.


Thank you.


Reminds me of when the Wizards swept us with 21 year old Bradley Beal and 24 year old John Wall. What was the reality of that situation again?


Bradley Beal put up 17,3,3 as a 21 year old. John Wall put up 17,4,10 at 24 years old. The Tatum and Brown obviously has a much higher ceiling based of production at the same age. But if your argument is that those Wizards are the perfect example of how to not build a team around 2 young superstars and a major injury to one of your two core players can pretty much screw any team, then I see your point.
DreamTeam09
RealGM
Posts: 10,525
And1: 4,860
Joined: Jan 06, 2009
Location: Scarborough
 

Re: Masai: We have a Young Team and there will be Growing Pains 

Post#453 » by DreamTeam09 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:04 pm

Again, for all the top end talent the Boston Celtics have, it was Marcus Smart & Robert Williams who stole a series from us against them. Not Tatum, not Brown, but Marcus Smart, Robert Williams and us playing Marc Gasol way too much for us to lose to all that top end talent while in a bubble. Big names are all everyone laments over and I kinda get it, but it always gets overblown out of proportion too, and a lot of the "Superstars" that y'all foam at the mouth over, still have their flaws.
Image

In Raptor Ball I Trust
User avatar
720
RealGM
Posts: 23,818
And1: 52,014
Joined: Nov 01, 2012
Location: Malton

Re: Masai: We have a Young Team and there will be Growing Pains 

Post#454 » by 720 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:09 pm

DreamTeam09 wrote:Again, for all the top end talent the Boston Celtics have, it was Marcus Smart & Robert Williams who stole a series from us against them. Not Tatum, not Brown, but Marcus Smart, Robert Williams and us playing Marc Gasol way too much for us to lose to all that top end talent while in a bubble. Big names are all everyone laments over and I kinda get it, but it always gets overblown out of proportion too, and a lot of the "Superstars" that y'all foam at the mouth over, still have their flaws.

lol that series came down to their top guy in Tatum who averaged 24 points 10 rebounds and 5 assist vs our top guy in Siakam who averaged 15 points 7 rebounds and 3 assists.

Not because Marcus Smart had a hot run and Robert Williams looked double speed compared to Gasol.
Image
We were right all along. #tWo
Run Barnes at point!
Jordan, Hakeem, Duncan, Curry, Lebron, Isiah, Dirk, Wade and Kobe. All drafted IN THE LOTTERY. That's a combined 29 championships.
Harcore Fenton Mun
General Manager
Posts: 8,688
And1: 5,104
Joined: Jul 17, 2006

Re: Masai: We have a Young Team and there will be Growing Pains 

Post#455 » by Harcore Fenton Mun » Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:12 pm

720 wrote:GTJ does not have a shot at that conversation I'm sorry.

We'll see with Barnes and OG. I'm a huge OG believer and think he'll make a jump this year in production simply because they'll give him more opportunities on offense. As for Barnes, I'm glad that Nurse said he's going to get a lot of playing time.

He's 22, it's not inconceivable at this point. I mean, it's not like we're banking on it...but if we get lucky.

How nice would it be if in a couple years he's a taller version of Dame. Clearly he's not on that level, but even 75-80% of that's huge.
Image
User avatar
everdiso
Head Coach
Posts: 6,456
And1: 8,179
Joined: Nov 18, 2008

Re: Masai: We have a Young Team and there will be Growing Pains 

Post#456 » by everdiso » Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:16 pm

HumbleRen wrote:
everdiso wrote:
HumbleRen wrote:

Not really.

GTJ - 22

Tatum - 23

OG - 24

Brown turning 25.

Nothing changed on my stance, they’ve spent the off season making moves so they can make a play for Beal next year.


That Tatum comment is something I’m not even going to reply to lol. Probably one of those dudes who think Pascal is better than Tatum.


Why did you feel you had to lie about their ages to make them look better than they are?

You’re literally arguing about a couple months.


You felt the need to lie about their age to make them look better.

Not exactly a ringing endorsement of your confidence in your assessment of them.
"I wasn't gonna act surprised - cuz I wasn't surprised."
User avatar
everdiso
Head Coach
Posts: 6,456
And1: 8,179
Joined: Nov 18, 2008

Re: Masai: We have a Young Team and there will be Growing Pains 

Post#457 » by everdiso » Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:17 pm

DreamTeam09 wrote:Again, for all the top end talent the Boston Celtics have, it was Marcus Smart & Robert Williams who stole a series from us against them. Not Tatum, not Brown, but Marcus Smart, Robert Williams and us playing Marc Gasol way too much for us to lose to all that top end talent while in a bubble. Big names are all everyone laments over and I kinda get it, but it always gets overblown out of proportion too, and a lot of the "Superstars" that y'all foam at the mouth over, still have their flaws.


Eh, they didn't steal that series, we handed it to them - pascal specifically.
"I wasn't gonna act surprised - cuz I wasn't surprised."
Pointgod
RealGM
Posts: 13,996
And1: 13,751
Joined: Jun 28, 2014

Re: Masai: We have a Young Team and there will be Growing Pains 

Post#458 » by Pointgod » Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:19 pm

DreamTeam09 wrote:Again, for all the top end talent the Boston Celtics have, it was Marcus Smart & Robert Williams who stole a series from us against them. Not Tatum, not Brown, but Marcus Smart, Robert Williams and us playing Marc Gasol way too much for us to lose to all that top end talent while in a bubble. Big names are all everyone laments over and I kinda get it, but it always gets overblown out of proportion too, and a lot of the "Superstars" that y'all foam at the mouth over, still have their flaws.


NBA is a superstar driven league. Always had been and always will be. To think at one point the Celtics had:
Kyrie
Horford
Gordon Hayward - although he was coming off an injury
Tatum
Smart
Brown
Rozier
Marcus Morris
Robert Williams
Daniel Theis

And they still got bounced in the second round by Milwaukee. Raptors fans of all people should recognize the effect that a superstar has on a team.
User avatar
everdiso
Head Coach
Posts: 6,456
And1: 8,179
Joined: Nov 18, 2008

Re: Masai: We have a Young Team and there will be Growing Pains 

Post#459 » by everdiso » Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:21 pm

Average of BPM/RPM/RAPTOR/LEBRON last year.

Fred (26): 3.6 -------- Tatum (22): 3.2
Pascal (26): 1.2 ---- Brown (24): 1.9
Anunoby (23): 1.2 - Smart (26): 0.6


Last 2yrs

Fred (27) 2.9 ------ Tatum (23) 3.9
Pascal (27) 1.5 --- Brown (25) 1.5
Anunoby (24) 1.0 - Smart (27) 1.3
"I wasn't gonna act surprised - cuz I wasn't surprised."
DreamTeam09
RealGM
Posts: 10,525
And1: 4,860
Joined: Jan 06, 2009
Location: Scarborough
 

Re: Masai: We have a Young Team and there will be Growing Pains 

Post#460 » by DreamTeam09 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:22 pm

720 wrote:
DreamTeam09 wrote:Again, for all the top end talent the Boston Celtics have, it was Marcus Smart & Robert Williams who stole a series from us against them. Not Tatum, not Brown, but Marcus Smart, Robert Williams and us playing Marc Gasol way too much for us to lose to all that top end talent while in a bubble. Big names are all everyone laments over and I kinda get it, but it always gets overblown out of proportion too, and a lot of the "Superstars" that y'all foam at the mouth over, still have their flaws.

lol that series came down to their top guy in Tatum who averaged 24 points 10 rebounds and 5 assist vs our top guy in Siakam who averaged 15 points 7 rebounds and 3 assists.

Not because Marcus Smart had a hot run and Robert Williams looked double speed compared to Gasol.


Again that's easy for you to say, but Marcus smart ain't going for 20+ a night while hitting 6 trey balls or Robert Williams monster double double as what, a 2nd year player at the time...

We were in all of those games with Tatum going for 24 n 10 while Pascal was 15 n 7 in a 7 game series that was decided by 5pts
Image

In Raptor Ball I Trust

Return to Toronto Raptors