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I am a unbridled supporter of anyone who wears the Raps colours with that said I want to open a conversation about Freddy.

You might look at Fred's stars tonight and think, yeah good game, 15 pts, 6 boards,17 dimes but that also came with 8 turn overs and -8 overall tonight (just under 50% shooting, which admittedly is pretty ok for a PG). With all that said, what does the eye test tell us?

I for one have my own opinions but I'm curious to hear yours.

Your friend in the struggle, Def Leppard.




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What's killing Fred right now are turnovers and his dribble drives that result in nothing. That's on him, the other players, and Nick's system. Teammates need to move and present themselves so that Fred can hit them with a pass. We need to mix it up with more post ups.

he has his great qualities - set shooter, some clutchness, plays well within the system, great when moving the ball.

and then bad qualities - somewhat tunnel vision at times, can't finish at the rim - like one of the lowest FG% at the rim from a guard perhaps, holding the ball for too long.

well for a 5'11 guy. its pretty good.

bakafool wrote:What's killing Fred right now are turnovers and his dribble drives that result in nothing. That's on him, the other players, and Nick's system. Teammates need to move and present themselves so that Fred can hit them with a pass. We need to mix it up with more post ups.

I agree, teammates will need to move around when Fred goes into his drives. The problem is that if they take away the pick & roll or the pass out for a three, he really struggles finding the cutter. I think one reason is his wingspan limitations and getting it through the larger defender.

As a lead guard he has ways to go on his IQ and feel for the game which is something Lowry had down pat. He needs to learn when to shoot and when to pass in the flow of the game and not force the issue. I feel like we need to get him off ball and run around like curry for us to be a more dynamic team.

bakafool wrote:What's killing Fred right now are turnovers and his dribble drives that result in nothing. That's on him, the other players, and Nick's system. Teammates need to move and present themselves so that Fred can hit them with a pass. We need to mix it up with more post ups.

This is exactly where I'm at. While I really hope for the best, the turnovers are killing me and the tunnel vision as well. Without a leader like Kyle what can the future be with him at the helm? I am not writing him off but for sure concerned

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Not sure why he doesn't initiate the offense earlier. We are often getting bad looks with the shot clock being the 6th defender when Freddy over dribbles trying to make something out of nothing.

This seems easy enough to correct but it feels like we have had this issue for a while.

His comment about seeing everyone at the same height the other day legitimately pissed me off.

bakafool wrote:What's killing Fred right now are turnovers and his dribble drives that result in nothing. That's on him, the other players, and Nick's system. Teammates need to move and present themselves so that Fred can hit them with a pass. We need to mix it up with more post ups.

This is ridiculous. By 'right now' do you mean 1 game? Because fred has been the least turnover prone raptor for 2 years now. Much less than kyle. I think he was averaging less than half of kyle's TOs last year. People are just making stuff up now.

Fred's TO team stats were in the 99th percentile last season. He's one of the best players in the entire league in terms of TOs.

"VanVleet himself commits only 1.9 turnovers per game, fewest in the league among players who score 15 or more points per game."

mdenny wrote:

bakafool wrote:What's killing Fred right now are turnovers and his dribble drives that result in nothing. That's on him, the other players, and Nick's system. Teammates need to move and present themselves so that Fred can hit them with a pass. We need to mix it up with more post ups.

This is ridiculous. By 'right now' do you mean 1 game? Because fred has been the least turnover prone raptor for 2 years now. Much less than kyle. I think he was averaging less than half of kyle's TOs last year.

Yeah but if it is one game it's a fair criticism no?

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FVV should be a 3rd/4th option. He was behind guys like Lowry/Siakam/Kawhi before. Now hes 1st/2nd he's gona struggle with Siakam out. It is what it is.

This team just isn't that talented.

mdenny wrote:

bakafool wrote:What's killing Fred right now are turnovers and his dribble drives that result in nothing. That's on him, the other players, and Nick's system. Teammates need to move and present themselves so that Fred can hit them with a pass. We need to mix it up with more post ups.

This is ridiculous. By 'right now' do you mean 1 game? Because fred has been the least turnover prone raptor for 2 years now. Much less than kyle. I think he was averaging less than half of kyle's TOs last year. People are just making stuff up now.

Fred's TO team stats were in the 99th percentile last season. He's one of the best players in the entire league in terms of TOs.

"VanVleet himself commits only 1.9 turnovers per game, fewest in the league among players who score 15 or more points per game."

https://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2021/02/01/fred-vanvleet-is-now-the-most-important-player-for-these-toronto-raptors/


Like so bizarre. Not only does FVV NOT have a TO problem. He's never had a TO problem. He was literally the BEST player in the league in respect turnovers.

Fred and OG have not been great to start the season, but we really don't have anyone else to be taking shots. Trent is too hot/cold and no one else can score.

Fred had the keys to the car before where he could borrow it once in a while. Now he owns the damn thing. He's not a rookie but it's going to take some time for him as well to adjust to the responsibility of being the main PG on this team , especially while there's a lot of other moving parts. He's shown in the past to be a very capable player. How about we give him more than 4 games before we judge him? I think he deserves at least that much.

He was perfect in his old 3+D role but now we’ve got him as the #1 scoring option which he is obviously not cut out for.

He’s also not a PG whatsoever.

He's been unbelievable at times defensively. I still don't understand why we didn't go to him on Luka more given how much trouble he was causing every time they cross matched.

Fred doesn't fit this offense. We've always had pretty good screeners to help give ball handlers a free step. JV and Gasol were great and Kyle might've been the best screener on the team. Even Baynes liked to hit people. Now we have a bunch of slip screeners. Maybe we're trying to pre-emptively counter switching. It makes sense with all the big ball handlers we've brought in, but the result is Fred is struggling.

He seems to be in his own head a bit and gambling on passes trying to make things happen because he's constantly stuck having to break guys down with little to no help and isn't creating enough advantages.

I'd argue this is part of the reason Malachi isn't playing (well). We have PnR PGs who have no one to set picks. I'd move Birch into the SL immediately. Our offense needs more violence.

mdenny wrote:

mdenny wrote:

bakafool wrote:What's killing Fred right now are turnovers and his dribble drives that result in nothing. That's on him, the other players, and Nick's system. Teammates need to move and present themselves so that Fred can hit them with a pass. We need to mix it up with more post ups.

This is ridiculous. By 'right now' do you mean 1 game? Because fred has been the least turnover prone raptor for 2 years now. Much less than kyle. I think he was averaging less than half of kyle's TOs last year. People are just making stuff up now.

Fred's TO team stats were in the 99th percentile last season. He's one of the best players in the entire league in terms of TOs.

"VanVleet himself commits only 1.9 turnovers per game, fewest in the league among players who score 15 or more points per game."

https://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2021/02/01/fred-vanvleet-is-now-the-most-important-player-for-these-toronto-raptors/


Like so bizarre. Not only does FVV NOT have a TO problem. He's never had a TO problem. He was literally the BEST player in the league in respect turnovers.

Do you know if this statistic is based on total turn overs or turn over to assist ratio? The best way to predict future behavior is past behavior so you would hope this would hold true, despite his plus minus as it pertains to assist and turn overs, turn overs were still high tonight (specifically)

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I don't see it.

FVV certainly deserves some criticism for forcing his game too much, but he's also in a tough spot right now - basically miscast as a primary creator. There's no Siakam, who's really the only guy who can draw doubles, OG's taking on more as a scorer but not so much as a playmaker, Barnes helps but is a rookie, Dragic and Trent don't come close to replacing Lowry's creation, Flynn is out of the rotation. Hopefully Siakam's return and Barnes' growth will help FVV find his level.

Def Leppard wrote:

mdenny wrote:

mdenny wrote:

This is ridiculous. By 'right now' do you mean 1 game? Because fred has been the least turnover prone raptor for 2 years now. Much less than kyle. I think he was averaging less than half of kyle's TOs last year. People are just making stuff up now.

Fred's TO team stats were in the 99th percentile last season. He's one of the best players in the entire league in terms of TOs.

"VanVleet himself commits only 1.9 turnovers per game, fewest in the league among players who score 15 or more points per game."

https://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2021/02/01/fred-vanvleet-is-now-the-most-important-player-for-these-toronto-raptors/


Like so bizarre. Not only does FVV NOT have a TO problem. He's never had a TO problem. He was literally the BEST player in the league in respect turnovers.

Do you know if this statistic is based on total turn overs or turn over to assist ratio? The best way to predict future behavior is past behavior so you would hope this would hold true, despite his plus minus as it pertains to assist and turn overs, turn overs were still high tonight (specifically)

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FVV had the best AST/TO ratio on the team the last two years. Last year his 3.5 AST/TO ratio was 7th in the entire league among eligible players and he had the lowest TOV% among those players because of his higher USG%. Turnovers is literally the least of FVV's issues. One game doesn't change that.

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Results are what I expected to be honest. He kind of has an ugly game, nothing really smooth which is why it was so huge and surprising he came up big in those mismatches against the Bucks in that series. And also why it was the ugliest 16 assist game I’ve ever seen lol. Better players and another primary ball handler to take pressure off him will put him back on track.

Let's hope this continues but with that said, it is not unfair to criticize any player for 8 turnovers in a game.

Appreciate you sharing the info and hope it holds true this year and on.



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