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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:06 pm
by JN
God Squad wrote:I've been super busy with work/kids, I've missed the last 3 games. Doesn't look like he's playing well atm from the boxscores. I knew their would be an adjustment period with him and Pascal. But didn't think it'd effect him this much.
Rookies regress / normalize all the time through their rookie seasons. Opposition adjusts to them. Rookies / sophomore typically go through the stage where they learn new things but it also takes away from their instincts... in a way they get confused or hesitant. Takes time to mesh what you are learning with your instincts, and not having them cross negatively at times.
I just thinks it flawed to put a large part of the blame on Pascal.
Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:52 pm
by Dalek
Watching that last game it looked like the Warriors targetted Scottie at least on a couple possessions. I remember seeing two blow-bys on Scottie on the perimeter from Wiggins and Poole which led to uncontested baskets at the rim. The past few games he has also struggled with fouls which again show some issues with guarding the ball. I'd have to go through his film again, but I tend to find him late a lot on rotations but he fouls to prevent players from scoring.
It is all learning, but I can sense a bit of frustration because he can't stay on the court or is afraid to guard too physically.
Also, I caught quite a few times where he rotates with another Raptor to the same player leaving the corner shooters open. In the case with Warriors this scenario happened quite a few times.
Not sure why he pinches in to help here but it left the corner open:
Left his man for no reason to cover Curry in the backcourt:
I know people hate this idea, but I would push him to the bench once OG is back. It allows Scottie to handle the ball more and to not have so much pressure to perform against starters. The good teams put a bit of a target on him both with back-cuts, weaknesses on guarding in space and his help defense needs work. He'd be a much more potent bench guy and get his scoring up in a feature role.
Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:01 pm
by Los_29
Dalek wrote:Watching that last game it looked like the Warriors targetted Scottie at least on a couple possessions. I remember seeing two blow-bys on Scottie on the perimeter from Wiggins and Poole which led to uncontested baskets at the rim. The past few games he has also struggled with fouls which again show some issues with guarding the ball. I'd have to go through his film again, but I tend to find him late a lot on rotations but he fouls to prevent players from scoring.
It is all learning, but I can sense a bit of frustration because he can't stay on the court or is afraid to guard too physically.
Also, I caught quite a few times where he rotates with another Raptor to the same player leaving the corner shooters open. In the case with Warriors this scenario happened quite a few times.
Not sure why he pinches in to help here but it left the corner open:
Left his man for no reason to cover Curry in the backcourt:
I know people hate this idea, but I would push him to the bench once OG is back. It allows Scottie to handle the ball more and to not have so much pressure to perform against starters. The good teams put a bit of a target on him both with back-cuts, weaknesses on guarding in space and his help defense needs work. He'd be a much more potent bench guy and get his scoring up in a feature role.
Yep, there is a steep learning curve in this league. Shows you there are levels to this. Lots of defensive (and offensive) lapses from Scottie. Not just him though, lots of missed rotations from a lot of the other younger guys as well. It's going to take time especially considering Nurse's defensive system requires a lot of time to learn. The potential is there. I don't mind losing games because we give crunch time minutes to our young players. Great learning experiences and they will be better for it. We might start winning these close games as the year progresses.
Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:03 pm
by dgr81
Dalek wrote:I know people hate this idea, but I would push him to the bench once OG is back. It allows Scottie to handle the ball more and to not have so much pressure to perform against starters. The good teams put a bit of a target on him both with back-cuts, weaknesses on guarding in space and his help defense needs work. He'd be a much more potent bench guy and get his scoring up in a feature role.
If you really want to win and compete this year, you most certainly move him to the bench when OG returns.
If you want him to learn and develop, then you keep playing him against starters. He's a smart kid. He will start to improve with time. Having him dominate against bench players isn't really helping his development as much.
I think Nurse would rather bench him but the front office probably want him starting. Nurse and the FO will have to sit down and figure things out.
Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:24 pm
by Dalek
dgr81 wrote:Dalek wrote:I know people hate this idea, but I would push him to the bench once OG is back. It allows Scottie to handle the ball more and to not have so much pressure to perform against starters. The good teams put a bit of a target on him both with back-cuts, weaknesses on guarding in space and his help defense needs work. He'd be a much more potent bench guy and get his scoring up in a feature role.
If you really want to win and compete this year, you most certainly move him to the bench when OG returns.
If you want him to learn and develop, then you keep playing him against starters. He's a smart kid. He will start to improve with time. Having him dominate against bench players isn't really helping his development as much.
I think Nurse would rather bench him but the front office probably want him starting. Nurse and the FO will have to sit down and figure things out.
The other counter is that people want him to grow more with the ball in his hands. With Siakam, OG and FVV he is not getting a lot of optimal touches. Compare it to Cade's development, you can see a big difference in the way they approach development.
Toronto gives him minutes, but he is an afterthought in the offense if I am being honest about how this season is going.
The problem with Scottie is he is such a team guy that he can just be happy swinging the ball around and not look out for his own development, which is not really growing on offense.
Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:29 pm
by GLF
This idea that Scottie or any rookie can't grow coming of the bench is foolish and needs to die. Especially when that player will still be getting big minutes regardless. Scottie needs to hit the bench once OG is back and I don't think that should even be a question at this point. It's better for him AND for the team.
Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:34 pm
by GLF
And it's funny because you all keep crying about him not getting touches, (when he isn't really ready but everyone seems to ignore that part) but coming off the bench will help him get way more touches than he's getting now. He would also most likely still get starter minutes. It's a win win. I truly don't understand the hesitency. It would also shore up our bench and we desperately need that. Lastly Dalano and Precious play with our bench and they are potentially both going to be here for a long time. They are apart of our young core so Scottie developing some real good chemistry with them wouldn't hurt.
Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:41 pm
by OakleyDokely
GLF wrote:This idea that Scottie or any rookie can't grow coming of the bench is foolish and needs to die. Especially when that player will still be getting big minutes regardless. Scottie needs to hit the bench once OG is back and I don't think that should even be a question at this point. It's better for him AND for the team.
I think there's merit in both approaches.
By starting, he's playing with better players which puts less pressure on him, at least initially. The more minutes he plays with the starters, the quicker he will get used to their playing styles and tendencies.
By coming off the bench, he will be more of a focal point offensively and he will be playing more against inferior players.
I don't think either strategy is wrong.
Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:44 pm
by DG88
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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:47 pm
by GLF
OakleyDokely wrote:GLF wrote:This idea that Scottie or any rookie can't grow coming of the bench is foolish and needs to die. Especially when that player will still be getting big minutes regardless. Scottie needs to hit the bench once OG is back and I don't think that should even be a question at this point. It's better for him AND for the team.
I think there's merit in both approaches.
By starting, he's playing with better players which puts less pressure on him, at least initially. The more minutes he plays with the starters, the quicker he will get used to their playing styles and tendencies.
By coming off the bench, he will be more of a focal point offensively and he will be playing more against inferior players.
I don't think either strategy is wrong.
Oh I agree that neither strategy is wrong, but there are a lot of people on here who think the bench stratgey is wrong and that's where I don't agree. And yes with the starters he has less pressure on him which I like but people then complain that he isn't getting enough touches. If you are playing alongside Fred, Pascal and OG you aren't going to get as much touches and rightfully so. People who just want to hand him the keys as a rookie are delusional. A lot of people also ignore how passive and sometimes reluctant to score or shoot he is when he does have the ball in his hands. That's on him.
Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:50 pm
by anotherhomer
the need for off-ball defensive improvements, shows how special evan mobley is, who excells particularly on this type of game
- off-ball defensive....and plays like a DPOY
Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:56 pm
by mdenny
Dalek wrote:Watching that last game it looked like the Warriors targetted Scottie at least on a couple possessions. I remember seeing two blow-bys on Scottie on the perimeter from Wiggins and Poole which led to uncontested baskets at the rim. The past few games he has also struggled with fouls which again show some issues with guarding the ball. I'd have to go through his film again, but I tend to find him late a lot on rotations but he fouls to prevent players from scoring.
It is all learning, but I can sense a bit of frustration because he can't stay on the court or is afraid to guard too physically.
Also, I caught quite a few times where he rotates with another Raptor to the same player leaving the corner shooters open. In the case with Warriors this scenario happened quite a few times.
Not sure why he pinches in to help here but it left the corner open:
Left his man for no reason to cover Curry in the backcourt:
I know people hate this idea, but I would push him to the bench once OG is back. It allows Scottie to handle the ball more and to not have so much pressure to perform against starters. The good teams put a bit of a target on him both with back-cuts, weaknesses on guarding in space and his help defense needs work. He'd be a much more potent bench guy and get his scoring up in a feature role.
I agree with these points. End of day.....golden state can make anyone look bad. But the next 2 to 3 games are gonna be interesting for scottie's defense. Is it gonna be a minor problem or a huge problem? Cause last night it was a huge problem.
I'm confident he'll figure it out eventually regardless if it's a minor or major problem. But if the next handful of games these things continue....then i think it's safe to say he's arrived at his first rookie hurdle and it probably calls for a decrease in minutes/change in role. Can't make that call based on a game against the warriors though.
Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:51 pm
by Ref_from_hell
DG88 wrote:?t=e0VddvBcak7Q7vFnfkKL9g&s=19
?t=BUfNmTKKKm-iQ222gTDfbw&s=19
?t=g3kSv_cnhKJqGrgLErWFhg&s=19
?t=pd4jm5alsaVjcbIFULIrtQ&s=19
?t=04k9R2ByxaJDKjHIXRFOGw&s=19
Well, I guess it's a good thing we're going to have a full lineup on Wednesday. I guess now the kid can rake again
Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:39 pm
by ciueli
Ref_from_hell wrote:DG88 wrote:?t=e0VddvBcak7Q7vFnfkKL9g&s=19
?t=BUfNmTKKKm-iQ222gTDfbw&s=19
?t=g3kSv_cnhKJqGrgLErWFhg&s=19
?t=pd4jm5alsaVjcbIFULIrtQ&s=19
?t=04k9R2ByxaJDKjHIXRFOGw&s=19
Well, I guess it's a good thing we're going to have a full lineup on Wednesday. I guess now the kid can rake again
We always knew the fit with Siakam was going to be terrible, he uses a lot of space around the basket to do what he does and he needs shooters around him. Barnes is not a shooter yet, so what can he do when Pascal is trying to score in the post? I've already seen too many cases of Barnes or Achiuwa standing in the corner, get the ball wide open and then they don't take the 3 because they are not shooter. Then the offensive set devolves into nothing, someone winds up jacking a contested 3 or dribbling into a clogged paint for a low percentage shot.
Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:49 pm
by Los_29
ciueli wrote:Ref_from_hell wrote:DG88 wrote:?t=e0VddvBcak7Q7vFnfkKL9g&s=19
?t=BUfNmTKKKm-iQ222gTDfbw&s=19
?t=g3kSv_cnhKJqGrgLErWFhg&s=19
?t=pd4jm5alsaVjcbIFULIrtQ&s=19
?t=04k9R2ByxaJDKjHIXRFOGw&s=19
Well, I guess it's a good thing we're going to have a full lineup on Wednesday. I guess now the kid can rake again
We always knew the fit with Siakam was going to be terrible, he uses a lot of space around the basket to do what he does and he needs shooters around him. Barnes is not a shooter yet, so what can he do when Pascal is trying to score in the post? I've already seen too many cases of Barnes or Achiuwa standing in the corner, get the ball wide open and then they don't take the 3 because they are not shooter. Then the offensive set devolves into nothing, someone winds up jacking a contested 3 or dribbling into a clogged paint for a low percentage shot.
Then they need to shoot. Nurse wants them shooting more.
Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:56 pm
by LBJKB24MJ23
DG88 wrote:?t=e0VddvBcak7Q7vFnfkKL9g&s=19
?t=BUfNmTKKKm-iQ222gTDfbw&s=19
?t=g3kSv_cnhKJqGrgLErWFhg&s=19
?t=pd4jm5alsaVjcbIFULIrtQ&s=19
?t=04k9R2ByxaJDKjHIXRFOGw&s=19
you posting your own tweets man?
Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread
Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:40 pm
by srhcan
Forgetting his man to contest someone else is big problem with him right now.
Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread
Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:05 pm
by DG88
For months leading up to the 2021 NBA draft, we praised the depth and star power of the class, calling the group the strongest since the 2003 class that included LeBron James, Carmelo Anthony, Chris Bosh and Dwyane Wade.
This rookie class featured three No. 1-caliber picks in Cade Cunningham, Evan Mobley and Jalen Green, with future All-Stars, longtime starters and instant-impact rotation players right behind them.
Now that we're almost a quarter of the way into the 2021-22 NBA season, how has the class lived up to expectations? Which rookies have shined brightest?
In the first version of Rookie Power Rankings, we rate the top 10 rookies based on how they've played so far. Keep in mind, this is not a re-draft or based on future potential, but rather a fluid list that spells out which rookies have been most valuable until this point.
https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/32692397/nba-rookie-power-rankings-our-10-best-freshmen-evan-mobley-push-no-1-big-guards-more2. Scottie Barnes, forward | Toronto Raptors
Barnes has taken the NBA by storm with his Giannis Antetokounmpo-like strides, frenetic energy, playmaking ability and jovial nature. Barnes is the modern NBA player, being able to defend 1 through 5 seamlessly while functioning as a transition initiator, pick-and-roll ball handler or valuable screener at 6-foot-8 with arms that never end. Much like Mobley, Barnes was viewed as a Swiss Army knife who could do nearly everything on the floor but wasn't wired to score. Barnes' defensive versatility, toughness, passing ability, scoring-averse style and shooting limitations are reasons why I compared him to a more explosive Draymond Green. But Barnes leads all rookies in scoring through 16 games thanks to a healthy dose of transition attacks, midrange jumpers and energy buckets. Barnes is a force in transition, needing just three dribbles to go the length of the floor to score.
While he is just 4-for-16 from 3 so far, the fact that Barnes is knocking down his free throws and at least attempting more than three midrange jumpers per game -- and that he cashed two catch-and-shoot 3s against Golden State on Sunday -- is a welcome sign. When I first started evaluating Barnes as a 15-year-old, his shot was all over the place with funky side spin and little natural touch, so to see him show some promise, even creating space off the dribble, is encouraging. Much like Antetokounmpo, the questions regarding Barnes' scoring reliability will be tested in the playoffs when transition opportunities dry up and defenses tighten.
More from B/R:
Scottie Barnes (Toronto Raptors, PF)
One of the early surprises among rookies has been the scoring of Scottie Barnes. A limited self-creator and shooter, known more for defense at Florida State, the No. 4 pick is averaging 14.6 points through 16 games.
Shooting 48.0 percent from the floor, he's finding ways to create and convert opportunities by using his ball-handling in space and strength/length around the basket. His offense typically comes within the game's flow. He's even making 1.1 pull-ups per game and 72.0 percent of his free throws after shooting just 4-of-19 off the dribble and 62.1 percent from the line last season.
His vision, height for passing and team-first mentality continue to translate to point-forward playmaking, with Barnes tallying at least four assists in eight of the Toronto Raptors' last nine games.
But he's also given the Raptors and disruptive defensive weapon who can pick up full court, guard multiple positions and inject contagious passion/energy into a lineup.
Grade: A
Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread
Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:24 pm
by aminiaturebuddha
I'm not sure who "T" is on Twitter here, but I would love to see some stats to back up his assertions.
The idea that "OG commanded double teams" seems to suggest that Pascal doesn't, or that OG does more frequently than Pascal (because he's talking about what the team is lacking with Pascal in the lineup and OG out). Again, I would love to see some stats, because that doesn't sound true to me at all.
Also, "T"'s belief that Pascal is more regularly guarded by 5s (which might be correct) should actually mean that Pascal is drawing more attention from the other team's best rim protector, which should open up more opportunities for Scottie in the paint. But as we've seen, Scottie's scoring percentages close to the basket have been dropping as well.
As one poster pointed out above (I think it was JN) rookies go through ups and downs all the time as things that were working for them earlier on no longer work once teams have some film to game plan against. Then the rookies will need to adjust, and opposing teams will counter once again. I think people have this misconception that player development is always linear. It isn't. Scottie will have stretches where he struggles, as all rookies do. But we know he's got a high BBIQ, he'll figure it out.
Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:41 am
by Scott Hall