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Realistic upgrades at C?

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Re: Realistic upgrades at C? 

Post#161 » by WaltFrazier » Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:52 am

Johnny Bball wrote:
WaltFrazier wrote:
bluerap23 wrote:We have 3 modern NBA starting calibre centres
Pascal, OG and Scottie


Not one of them is best used to guard Embiid, Vuc, or even Mitchell Robinson, Stewart of Detroit, Williams of Boston. Our 3 are forwards, all would be wasted and worn out guarding bigger guys in the paint.


I disagree, Did OG not shut him down last year when he played the five? I know he gave Jokic problems. And the sixers have their own problems getting deep in the playoffs.


In last year's Denver game, which I think was Norm's last game (and was it also the all women broadcast?), yes OG guarded Jokic and did a great job in a great win. I would argue that Jokic plays out high, facing the basket, so a better matchup for OG than a big strong center with a back to the basket post game. I still think you don't want OG guardng a steady diet of those big guys who play inside and crash the boards. He is an elite wing stopper.
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Re: Realistic upgrades at C? 

Post#162 » by WaltFrazier » Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:59 am

ConSarnit wrote:
WaltFrazier wrote:
bluerap23 wrote:We have 3 modern NBA starting calibre centres
Pascal, OG and Scottie


Not one of them is best used to guard Embiid, Vuc, or even Mitchell Robinson, Stewart of Detroit, Williams of Boston. Our 3 are forwards, all would be wasted and worn out guarding bigger guys in the paint.


All 3 of those guys will do a better job than any 3rd center we’d acquire. If we pick up a guy with the intent of having him guard the bigger C’s he’ll likely be a net negative everywhere else and if that’s the case why bother?

What team has even a decent 3rd string C? And if we’re down to playing our 3rd string C major minutes we’re already probably screwed. If Boucher can improve his play to last years level he’ll be way more impactful than guys like Giles or Bagley (both are pretty terrible).


My idea is not to get a 3rd string center, but one who is as good or better than Birch. Make Achiuwa the 3rd string.

And even if Pascal, OG and Scottie can do a decent job guarding bigger C's, it doesn't mean that's what they should be doing. They are all elite to very good perimeter defenders. It's a function of poor roster construction that they are our best options after Birch and Precious.
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Re: Realistic upgrades at C? 

Post#163 » by seanbig » Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:24 am

Dennis 37 wrote:Bonga looks like something in the G-league, but he's not going to perform against bigger bodies. Did Raptors make a mistake getting rid of Ish Wainwright? He had the strength to go up against the big guys and he could sink the three.

We don't necessarily need a 7 footer, but we need a player who can withstand the pounding game in and game out. Pascal is not that guy. He became very frustrated when asked to perform that role last year. Barnes needs to go to the bench and we need a guy to withstand the pounding, play defense and sink the three.


This - it’s like having our tight ends constantly block for us in football instead of getting a decent lineman

This year the nba has been more physical ( it’s always been physical in the paint) and the more we expect OG/Pascal/Scottie to bang with a center the more likely they will get injured… especially since Nurse loves playing our players 35+ minutes unless you are named Flynn or Boucher lol

The constant grinding means they will get injured which I guess isn’t a bad thing since we are stealth tanking but will look REALLY BAD we let Freddie go when both birch and precious are injured in a month
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Re: Realistic upgrades at C? 

Post#164 » by God Squad » Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:42 am

WaltFrazier wrote:
ConSarnit wrote:
WaltFrazier wrote:
Not one of them is best used to guard Embiid, Vuc, or even Mitchell Robinson, Stewart of Detroit, Williams of Boston. Our 3 are forwards, all would be wasted and worn out guarding bigger guys in the paint.


All 3 of those guys will do a better job than any 3rd center we’d acquire. If we pick up a guy with the intent of having him guard the bigger C’s he’ll likely be a net negative everywhere else and if that’s the case why bother?

What team has even a decent 3rd string C? And if we’re down to playing our 3rd string C major minutes we’re already probably screwed. If Boucher can improve his play to last years level he’ll be way more impactful than guys like Giles or Bagley (both are pretty terrible).


My idea is not to get a 3rd string center, but one who is as good or better than Birch. Make Achiuwa the 3rd string.

And even if Pascal, OG and Scottie can do a decent job guarding bigger C's, it doesn't mean that's what they should be doing. They are all elite to very good perimeter defenders. It's a function of poor roster construction that they are our best options after Birch and Precious.

Yeah I'm with Walt. These last few games have made it very apparent we lack a real Center, and like he said one better than Birch.
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Re: Realistic upgrades at C? 

Post#165 » by HomoSapien » Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:48 am

Didn’t want to start a new thread, but can anyone give me a rundown on why Boucher’s role was reduced this year? From the outside looking in, it seemed like he played really well last season.
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Re: Realistic upgrades at C? 

Post#166 » by NeoDragonKnight » Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:58 am

I really wanted Turner, his stock was really low last few years once Sabonis came in, and the beginning of this year, but now he has finally been unleashed again with consistent playing time in the 30s and a new coach and the buy low window has closed.
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Re: Realistic upgrades at C? 

Post#167 » by MoMan24 » Mon Nov 15, 2021 6:28 am

HomoSapien wrote:Didn’t want to start a new thread, but can anyone give me a rundown on why Boucher’s role was reduced this year? From the outside looking in, it seemed like he played really well last season.

He was injured heading into the season so he missed training camp, preseason. He had to work his way back into shape and rhythm. Now last year he was a 6th man candidate that's how well he played for us and his shooting was just not sustainable. But this year its like his IQ which wasn't all that high got worse, he is struggling from the field and making it worse by forcing the issue by taking bad or quick shots. His defense has gotten worse and is making way more mistakes. Lastly he has competition this year with Birch, Precious, OG, Barnes, Siakam, and even Watanabe when he comes back. Last year we needed him since our C rotation was all-time bad and he played free since he had guaranteed minutes in a lost season with injuries and covid and Tampa. Now he has competition and missed the start of the season and its a contract year. Boucher is feeling the pressure to perform, his NBA career may be on the line this season.
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Re: Realistic upgrades at C? 

Post#168 » by Joshuan3 » Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:09 am

Is Mo Bamba realistic?? They gave Wendell + Isaac a contract idk if the Magic would keep Mo Bomba
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Re: Realistic upgrades at C? 

Post#169 » by Indeed » Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:04 pm

MoMan24 wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:Didn’t want to start a new thread, but can anyone give me a rundown on why Boucher’s role was reduced this year? From the outside looking in, it seemed like he played really well last season.

He was injured heading into the season so he missed training camp, preseason. He had to work his way back into shape and rhythm. Now last year he was a 6th man candidate that's how well he played for us and his shooting was just not sustainable. But this year its like his IQ which wasn't all that high got worse, he is struggling from the field and making it worse by forcing the issue by taking bad or quick shots. His defense has gotten worse and is making way more mistakes. Lastly he has competition this year with Birch, Precious, OG, Barnes, Siakam, and even Watanabe when he comes back. Last year we needed him since our C rotation was all-time bad and he played free since he had guaranteed minutes in a lost season with injuries and covid and Tampa. Now he has competition and missed the start of the season and its a contract year. Boucher is feeling the pressure to perform, his NBA career may be on the line this season.


Last year he played C, where we spaced the floor and had being the main receiver of our PnP and PnR.

Now he is playing PF, where he is no longer setting picks to receive the ball, nor against slower C that is late to contest (or not contesting him), because of that, he ended up taking contested shots and widely missed.
Playing at PF, we are asking him to handle the ball a bit, make a decision to pass, and so far he is horrible in doing those.

Meanwhile, playing him back at C is impossible, as he couldn't defend opposing C well, doesn't boxout well, and got pushed away.

We are trying to help him establish a NBA position, if he can improve that by this year, that would be great, but I don't think his passing will be any better. And now his shot selection is causing us games.
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Re: Realistic upgrades at C? 

Post#170 » by Indeed » Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:22 pm

God Squad wrote:
WaltFrazier wrote:
ConSarnit wrote:
All 3 of those guys will do a better job than any 3rd center we’d acquire. If we pick up a guy with the intent of having him guard the bigger C’s he’ll likely be a net negative everywhere else and if that’s the case why bother?

What team has even a decent 3rd string C? And if we’re down to playing our 3rd string C major minutes we’re already probably screwed. If Boucher can improve his play to last years level he’ll be way more impactful than guys like Giles or Bagley (both are pretty terrible).


My idea is not to get a 3rd string center, but one who is as good or better than Birch. Make Achiuwa the 3rd string.

And even if Pascal, OG and Scottie can do a decent job guarding bigger C's, it doesn't mean that's what they should be doing. They are all elite to very good perimeter defenders. It's a function of poor roster construction that they are our best options after Birch and Precious.

Yeah I'm with Walt. These last few games have made it very apparent we lack a real Center, and like he said one better than Birch.


Indeed, the biggest question is where we can find one.
Any big C in the league is a rotation player due to matchup against quick guards. And not many of them can stretch the floor to make up the value on the offensive end.

I would be happy with a backup C who can play 20 mins against other big C.
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Re: Realistic upgrades at C? 

Post#171 » by Saciid11 » Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:33 pm

Mo Bamba is the only one we have chance to get and the one who fits this team at the center position.
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Re: Realistic upgrades at C? 

Post#172 » by DelAbbot » Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:33 pm

HomoSapien wrote:Didn’t want to start a new thread, but can anyone give me a rundown on why Boucher’s role was reduced this year? From the outside looking in, it seemed like he played really well last season.


You can find all his problems this year in this thread

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=2135853

Boucher plays best as a small ball C with all the room in the paint. We would like to trade him for a FRP (the Portland one) that delivers within 2 years.
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Re: Realistic upgrades at C? 

Post#173 » by johanliebert » Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:41 pm

bluerap23 wrote:We have 3 modern NBA starting calibre centres
Pascal, OG and Scottie

I took a look at the rosters of the top 5 teams in each conference. None of them had a “modern” starting caliber Center.

Gafford, claxton,adebayo,gobert,Jokic, allen, vucevic, looney,ayton(mcgee), powell. It seems only the mediocre teams want to rewrite what a Center is.
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Re: Realistic upgrades at C? 

Post#174 » by HumbleRen » Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:45 pm

johanliebert wrote:
bluerap23 wrote:We have 3 modern NBA starting calibre centres
Pascal, OG and Scottie

I took a look at the rosters of the top 5 teams in each conference. None of them had a “modern” starting caliber Center.

Gafford, claxton,adebayo,gobert,Jokic, allen, vucevic, looney,ayton(mcgee), powell. It seems only the mediocre teams want to rewrite what a Center is.


Pascal, OG or Scottie being anyone's example of a modern day center is the funniest thing I've read today.
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Re: Realistic upgrades at C? 

Post#175 » by execoftheyear » Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:50 pm

What happened to Biz? I feel like he'd fit perfectly with this group
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Re: Realistic upgrades at C? 

Post#176 » by OakleyDokely » Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:05 pm

The Raps have been a very good defensive and rebounding team when either Precious or Birch are playing.

By going small with either OG, Siakam or Barnes, they're sacrificing some defense for more offense. This still haven't found the right balance.
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Re: Realistic upgrades at C? 

Post#177 » by bbalnation » Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:39 pm

Imo, this team is in line with what management envisions. Precious isnt what they thought, and that's fine. There will be other prospects.

You dont ditch the entire 3-5(+) year plan of having 5 players that are over 6'9 that can switch everything. Part of that is building the structure itself.

Getting a C right now would be incredibly reactive to a few losses in the early phases of a rebuild, where we are ahead of schedule.

Nobody expected Scottie to be this good this fast, and OG has taken a nice step. For now, you make do, and you cheer the **** out of this team. They're working their asses off.

We're gonna be a potential playin/playoff team this year. We have our management team secured to long term deals: our safety is in the hands of people who give a **** about the wins and losses. Masai literally owns a piece of the pie. This is a marathon. Were gonna be really good for a while with OG/Scottie as a starting nucleus as players, but its a marathon, especially in this fast turnover and competitive NBA landscape.

The pieces will come together in time.
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Re: Realistic upgrades at C? 

Post#178 » by Raptorfan2012 » Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:50 pm

execoftheyear wrote:What happened to Biz? I feel like he'd fit perfectly with this group


IMO you might as well continue to roll with Precious than bring in Biz at his age. Nurse seems like to what Precious brings on the defensive end and on the boards. Just need to reduce his offensive responsibilities.
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Re: Realistic upgrades at C? 

Post#179 » by terryjackson » Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:53 pm

bbalnation wrote:Imo, this team is in line with what management envisions. Precious isnt what they thought, and that's fine. There will be other prospects.

You dont ditch the entire 3-5(+) year plan of having 5 players that are over 6'9 that can switch everything. Part of that is building the structure itself.

Getting a C right now would be incredibly reactive to a few losses in the early phases of a rebuild, where we are ahead of schedule.

Nobody expected Scottie to be this good this fast, and OG has taken a nice step. For now, you make do, and you cheer the **** out of this team. They're working their asses off.

We're gonna be a potential playin/playoff team this year. We have our management team secured to long term deals: our safety is in the hands of people who give a **** about the wins and losses. Masai literally owns a piece of the pie. This is a marathon. Were gonna be really good for a while with OG/Scottie as a starting nucleus as players, but its a marathon, especially in this fast turnover and competitive NBA landscape.

The pieces will come together in time.

Precious can still put it together although it will take some time. If we stopped playing Precious we likely win a lot more games, he has shown solid spurts in his short time with the Raptors this season.

Masai constructed this team aware of the hole at center and ignored it. A lot of posters have stressed the importance of obtaining a center because they want to protect the core of OG, Siakam, and Barnes from injury. The other side is they get important minutes playing out of the comfort zone.

Playing the core in a poorly spaced offense makes them perfect their drives, passes, and has them competing harder on defense against bigger post players. Once the Raptors obtain a center to do that work for them and space the floor they will excel.
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Re: Realistic upgrades at C? 

Post#180 » by Indeed » Mon Nov 15, 2021 6:01 pm

OakleyDokely wrote:The Raps have been a very good defensive and rebounding team when either Precious or Birch are playing.

By going small with either OG, Siakam or Barnes, they're sacrificing some defense for more offense. This still haven't found the right balance.


Indeed, the balance between rebounding and spacing.
I think there are some suggestion with Barnes coming off the bench, which I think that could be another solution.

Meanwhile, I still prefer a real C over spacing, because you can improve on 3 point shooting that leads to spacing, but banging against bigger body and improve on rebounding is a bigger ask. I mean, I am not sure rebounding can be improved as much as 3 point shooting / spacing, usually they are transferred from college, and not much of a change.

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