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Realistic upgrades at C?

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Re: Realistic upgrades at C? 

Post#181 » by Mr Funk » Mon Nov 15, 2021 6:26 pm

Duffman100 wrote:We need a 3rd big. Whether it be injuries or when Precious looks like he has never played basketball before. A 3rd big is a pretty glaring need right now.


Yep.

It's not about an upgrade but rather that we desperately require depth.

When either one of Birch or Precious goes down, OG/Pascal/Scottie starting or backing up at centre doesn't cut it.

seanbig wrote:The constant grinding means they will get injured which I guess isn’t a bad thing since we are stealth tanking but will look REALLY BAD we let Freddie go when both birch and precious are injured in a month


I mentioned that cutting Freddie was a mistake in the post game thread and received slight slack for it, but it's quite apparent now how much the lack of depth is killing us. He wasn't great but Gillespie could provide decent defensive play, rebound, block, box out and is mobile. Obviously It doesn't have to be him and it's not extremely difficult for management to find someone, but just some half decent depth would go a long way at this point.
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Re: Realistic upgrades at C? 

Post#182 » by ConSarnit » Mon Nov 15, 2021 6:49 pm

Indeed wrote:
God Squad wrote:
WaltFrazier wrote:
My idea is not to get a 3rd string center, but one who is as good or better than Birch. Make Achiuwa the 3rd string.

And even if Pascal, OG and Scottie can do a decent job guarding bigger C's, it doesn't mean that's what they should be doing. They are all elite to very good perimeter defenders. It's a function of poor roster construction that they are our best options after Birch and Precious.

Yeah I'm with Walt. These last few games have made it very apparent we lack a real Center, and like he said one better than Birch.


Indeed, the biggest question is where we can find one.
Any big C in the league is a rotation player due to matchup against quick guards. And not many of them can stretch the floor to make up the value on the offensive end.

I would be happy with a backup C who can play 20 mins against other big C.


Who is this player? What are we giving up for him? And why?

I think we can all agree we’re not getting a high level C. So why are we giving up assets for a marginal upgrade in a re-tooling year?

We’re an average rebounding team. Any def rebounding upgrade probably drops our off rebounding rate.

We give up 1.02ppp on post-ups. We’re in bottom 10 for ppp allowed on post ups but the volume is middling. 1.02ppp is bad offense so we’re not getting hurt there. If teams want to post us up every possession at 1.02pp that’s great for us.

The things people think we need to fix (rebounding and post D) aren’t even huge problems.
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Re: Realistic upgrades at C? 

Post#183 » by Indeed » Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:03 pm

ConSarnit wrote:
Indeed wrote:
God Squad wrote:Yeah I'm with Walt. These last few games have made it very apparent we lack a real Center, and like he said one better than Birch.


Indeed, the biggest question is where we can find one.
Any big C in the league is a rotation player due to matchup against quick guards. And not many of them can stretch the floor to make up the value on the offensive end.

I would be happy with a backup C who can play 20 mins against other big C.


Who is this player? What are we giving up for him? And why?

I think we can all agree we’re not getting a high level C. So why are we giving up assets for a marginal upgrade in a re-tooling year?

We’re an average rebounding team. Any def rebounding upgrade probably drops our off rebounding rate.

We give up 1.02ppp on post-ups. We’re in bottom 10 for ppp allowed on post ups but the volume is middling. 1.02ppp is bad offense so we’re not getting hurt there. If teams want to post us up every possession at 1.02pp that’s great for us.

The things people think we need to fix (rebounding and post D) aren’t even huge problems.


I believe we are good at defending the paint, because we collapse and forced them to take the 3s, and stats showed teams have a higher % in shooting 3s (average in making them). Our defense is good, but we are not at the level with Gasol.

The biggest argument of having a real C (to me), is on the offensive end, where our previous winning formula has been offensive rebounding. Now we are not shooting 3s well (same FG%, but less efficient without 3 ball), and we are not rebounding with a small ball C, so in the short term for winning, we need offensive rebounding to compensate our lack of 3s.

For long term, 3 point shooting can be improved, but rebounding not so much and dated back their college rebounding rate. Therefore, a lineup with Siakam-OG will need better rebounders with pair with them, and maybe Barnes would be enough when the 3s are working, but you may still want a good rebounding C (Birch, Achiuwa are good rebounders).

As for any particular target, I think long term will require to draft one, but there are players could be on the block:
Hayes - Valanciunas is playing ahead of him. Even Valanciunas ends exactly the same time as Hayes QO, they may want to trade him for immediate help
Nurkic - Last year of his contract. If Portland doesn't make it to the playoffs, they may trade Nurkic.
...
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Re: Realistic upgrades at C? 

Post#184 » by OakleyDokely » Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:27 pm

Indeed wrote:
OakleyDokely wrote:The Raps have been a very good defensive and rebounding team when either Precious or Birch are playing.

By going small with either OG, Siakam or Barnes, they're sacrificing some defense for more offense. This still haven't found the right balance.


Indeed, the balance between rebounding and spacing.
I think there are some suggestion with Barnes coming off the bench, which I think that could be another solution.

Meanwhile, I still prefer a real C over spacing, because you can improve on 3 point shooting that leads to spacing, but banging against bigger body and improve on rebounding is a bigger ask. I mean, I am not sure rebounding can be improved as much as 3 point shooting / spacing, usually they are transferred from college, and not much of a change.


I'd play big with Precious/Barnes/Siakam/OG/VV. Yes, you'd only have have two reliable 3pt shooters out there (although Siakam has shown capable in the past of hitting them, especially opens ones), but if this team is going to be successful, they need to defend and rebound at a high level.
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Re: Realistic upgrades at C? 

Post#185 » by PerfectJab » Mon Nov 15, 2021 8:08 pm

Asif16 wrote:Christian Wood?..........Boucher + Precious + Flynn works on the trade machine.

Wood fits the Length/Athleticism/Versatile component the Raptors are pivoting too


The thread title does say realistic :wink:

Reminds me of the trades I used to make back when I played 2k :lol:
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Re: Realistic upgrades at C? 

Post#186 » by gottamakeit » Mon Nov 15, 2021 8:15 pm

just go get dwight powell from the mavs lol
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Re: Realistic upgrades at C? 

Post#187 » by ConSarnit » Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:25 pm

Indeed wrote:
ConSarnit wrote:
Indeed wrote:
Indeed, the biggest question is where we can find one.
Any big C in the league is a rotation player due to matchup against quick guards. And not many of them can stretch the floor to make up the value on the offensive end.

I would be happy with a backup C who can play 20 mins against other big C.


Who is this player? What are we giving up for him? And why?

I think we can all agree we’re not getting a high level C. So why are we giving up assets for a marginal upgrade in a re-tooling year?

We’re an average rebounding team. Any def rebounding upgrade probably drops our off rebounding rate.

We give up 1.02ppp on post-ups. We’re in bottom 10 for ppp allowed on post ups but the volume is middling. 1.02ppp is bad offense so we’re not getting hurt there. If teams want to post us up every possession at 1.02pp that’s great for us.

The things people think we need to fix (rebounding and post D) aren’t even huge problems.


I believe we are good at defending the paint, because we collapse and forced them to take the 3s, and stats showed teams have a higher % in shooting 3s (average in making them). Our defense is good, but we are not at the level with Gasol.

The biggest argument of having a real C (to me), is on the offensive end, where our previous winning formula has been offensive rebounding. Now we are not shooting 3s well (same FG%, but less efficient without 3 ball), and we are not rebounding with a small ball C, so in the short term for winning, we need offensive rebounding to compensate our lack of 3s.

For long term, 3 point shooting can be improved, but rebounding not so much and dated back their college rebounding rate. Therefore, a lineup with Siakam-OG will need better rebounders with pair with them, and maybe Barnes would be enough when the 3s are working, but you may still want a good rebounding C (Birch, Achiuwa are good rebounders).

As for any particular target, I think long term will require to draft one, but there are players could be on the block:
Hayes - Valanciunas is playing ahead of him. Even Valanciunas ends exactly the same time as Hayes QO, they may want to trade him for immediate help
Nurkic - Last year of his contract. If Portland doesn't make it to the playoffs, they may trade Nurkic.
...


We already have 4 guys in the top 40 in Offensive rebounding. We’re already at the top of the league with our current roster.

We’re able to be successful defensively because we stop other teams in transition + we offensive rebound at a high level. If we put a plodding C (Nurkic) out there that destroys one of our strongest traits: matchup flexibility to stop other teams in transition.

I’m not opposed to a more traditional C but I’m not giving up any assets to bring one in at this time.
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Re: Realistic upgrades at C? 

Post#188 » by alpngso » Tue Nov 16, 2021 1:48 am

i remember people here saying we don’t need Richaun Holmes

could’ve definitely used him if Raps somehow rerouted Dragic
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Re: Realistic upgrades at C? 

Post#189 » by WaltFrazier » Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:01 am

OakleyDokely wrote:
Indeed wrote:
OakleyDokely wrote:The Raps have been a very good defensive and rebounding team when either Precious or Birch are playing.

By going small with either OG, Siakam or Barnes, they're sacrificing some defense for more offense. This still haven't found the right balance.


Indeed, the balance between rebounding and spacing.
I think there are some suggestion with Barnes coming off the bench, which I think that could be another solution.

Meanwhile, I still prefer a real C over spacing, because you can improve on 3 point shooting that leads to spacing, but banging against bigger body and improve on rebounding is a bigger ask. I mean, I am not sure rebounding can be improved as much as 3 point shooting / spacing, usually they are transferred from college, and not much of a change.


I'd play big with Precious/Barnes/Siakam/OG/VV. Yes, you'd only have have two reliable 3pt shooters out there (although Siakam has shown capable in the past of hitting them, especially opens ones), but if this team is going to be successful, they need to defend and rebound at a high level.


Yes, or Birch for Achiuwa. He should be starting by now regardless.
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Re: Realistic upgrades at C? 

Post#190 » by tecumseh18 » Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:30 pm

alpngso wrote:i remember people here saying we don’t need Richaun Holmes

could’ve definitely used him if Raps somehow rerouted Dragic


No, as soon as the Heat picked up Dragic's option, Kyle could only go there on a S&T. Which caused the Raps to lose the cap space to acquire Holmes.
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Re: Realistic upgrades at C? 

Post#191 » by tecumseh18 » Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:31 pm

ConSarnit wrote:
Indeed wrote:
God Squad wrote:Yeah I'm with Walt. These last few games have made it very apparent we lack a real Center, and like he said one better than Birch.


Indeed, the biggest question is where we can find one.
Any big C in the league is a rotation player due to matchup against quick guards. And not many of them can stretch the floor to make up the value on the offensive end.

I would be happy with a backup C who can play 20 mins against other big C.


Who is this player? What are we giving up for him? And why?

I think we can all agree we’re not getting a high level C. So why are we giving up assets for a marginal upgrade in a re-tooling year?

We’re an average rebounding team. Any def rebounding upgrade probably drops our off rebounding rate.

We give up 1.02ppp on post-ups. We’re in bottom 10 for ppp allowed on post ups but the volume is middling. 1.02ppp is bad offense so we’re not getting hurt there. If teams want to post us up every possession at 1.02pp that’s great for us.

The things people think we need to fix (rebounding and post D) aren’t even huge problems.


Yeah, I was expecting Portland to go inside with Nurkic and kill us down low, but that didn't happen. I keep waiting for a big to destroy us this season, but it's not happening. Not to the point where you'd say the "Biggie Smalls" strategy isn't working for the Raptors.
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Re: Realistic upgrades at C? 

Post#192 » by Ell Curry » Tue Nov 16, 2021 6:52 pm

Seems we should have signed Hartenstein, like that Reddit guy obsessed with him said.

Dieng is playing okay and only 9 minutes which Okongwa will take, so maybe they'd move him for someone like Yuta or Boucher.

Muscala having another great season, he genuinely makes sense with our need for shooting and the presumably low as hell OKC cost. Again, we probably should have just signed him in the summer.

Myles Turner and Mo Bamba remain the fun stretch 5 options and both could be available for not insane prices, though I don't really see why Orlando would give him up at this point, though if they draft Duren or Nzosa maybe that would open up a move.
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Re: Realistic upgrades at C? 

Post#193 » by WaltFrazier » Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:47 am

Raptorfan2012 wrote:
execoftheyear wrote:What happened to Biz? I feel like he'd fit perfectly with this group


IMO you might as well continue to roll with Precious than bring in Biz at his age. Nurse seems like to what Precious brings on the defensive end and on the boards. Just need to reduce his offensive responsibilities.


But Biz as number 3 C, cheap, come in a block a few shots and rebound, and fill in when Precious or Birch have been hurt, which has been the last 5-6 games now and likely to happen again this season.
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Re: Realistic upgrades at C? 

Post#194 » by ConSarnit » Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:29 pm

WaltFrazier wrote:
Raptorfan2012 wrote:
execoftheyear wrote:What happened to Biz? I feel like he'd fit perfectly with this group


IMO you might as well continue to roll with Precious than bring in Biz at his age. Nurse seems like to what Precious brings on the defensive end and on the boards. Just need to reduce his offensive responsibilities.


But Biz as number 3 C, cheap, come in a block a few shots and rebound, and fill in when Precious or Birch have been hurt, which has been the last 5-6 games now and likely to happen again this season.


A Biz-type player could be acceptable (to me at least).

-costs nothing (free agent)
-can bang with bigger bodies and rebound
-can be cut if he doesn't work out

The main issue with Biz is that our offence already has issues. He would kill our already struggling offense. I'm not opposed to a player of his type (experienced free agent C) but his skills (of lack there of) would probably hurt us more than any issues he'd help with.

That's the issue with any scrap-pile C, they likely have significant flaws that would make them neutral impact at best on this team.
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Re: Realistic upgrades at C? 

Post#195 » by Raptorfan2012 » Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:53 pm

We could definitely use a 3rd C, but the easiest way to upgrade the C spot is to take away offensive responsibilities away from Precious. Nurse clearly likes him for his rebounding and defense, and he does provide a bit of rim protection. Treat Precious like Bismack; involve him with screens and cuts, but no more ball-handling around the perimeter and no more green light to shoot unless he is opened. Give some of those shot attempts to Barnes or Pascal.
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Re: Realistic upgrades at C? 

Post#196 » by Kingsway_fan » Wed Nov 17, 2021 7:07 pm

Raptorfan2012 wrote:We could definitely use a 3rd C, but the easiest way to upgrade the C spot is to take away offensive responsibilities away from Precious. Nurse clearly likes him for his rebounding and defense, and he does provide a bit of rim protection. Treat Precious like Bismack; involve him with screens and cuts, but no more ball-handling around the perimeter and no more green light to shoot unless he is opened. Give some of those shot attempts to Barnes or Pascal.



agreed, but easier said than done... yes if Nurse just gave him the green light ONLY for dunks on offense, and for him to focus all his energies on defense and rebounding and passing .. he would be much more effective ... i just dont think Coach would do it or whether the player would react badly to such a restriction . imo
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Re: Realistic upgrades at C? 

Post#197 » by WaltFrazier » Wed Nov 17, 2021 7:50 pm

ConSarnit wrote:
WaltFrazier wrote:
Raptorfan2012 wrote:
IMO you might as well continue to roll with Precious than bring in Biz at his age. Nurse seems like to what Precious brings on the defensive end and on the boards. Just need to reduce his offensive responsibilities.


But Biz as number 3 C, cheap, come in a block a few shots and rebound, and fill in when Precious or Birch have been hurt, which has been the last 5-6 games now and likely to happen again this season.


A Biz-type player could be acceptable (to me at least).

-costs nothing (free agent)
-can bang with bigger bodies and rebound
-can be cut if he doesn't work out

The main issue with Biz is that our offence already has issues. He would kill our already struggling offense. I'm not opposed to a player of his type (experienced free agent C) but his skills (of lack there of) would probably hurt us more than any issues he'd help with.

That's the issue with any scrap-pile C, they likely have significant flaws that would make them neutral impact at best on this team.


I get what you're saying about offense. But would he be much worse than Birch or Precious? It's like a bonus when Khem is hitting his shot jumpers in the lane. But how many times does one of them catch the ball open and then have to pass right away, and I think if only they could shoot well enough that they had to be guarded, it would open up a lot of things for others.

That's why part of me would like a spare rebounder/dunker like Biz but another part wants a floor spacer/big body like Olynyk.
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Re: Realistic upgrades at C? 

Post#198 » by ConSarnit » Wed Nov 17, 2021 10:44 pm

WaltFrazier wrote:
ConSarnit wrote:
WaltFrazier wrote:
But Biz as number 3 C, cheap, come in a block a few shots and rebound, and fill in when Precious or Birch have been hurt, which has been the last 5-6 games now and likely to happen again this season.


A Biz-type player could be acceptable (to me at least).

-costs nothing (free agent)
-can bang with bigger bodies and rebound
-can be cut if he doesn't work out

The main issue with Biz is that our offence already has issues. He would kill our already struggling offense. I'm not opposed to a player of his type (experienced free agent C) but his skills (of lack there of) would probably hurt us more than any issues he'd help with.

That's the issue with any scrap-pile C, they likely have significant flaws that would make them neutral impact at best on this team.


I get what you're saying about offense. But would he be much worse than Birch or Precious? It's like a bonus when Khem is hitting his shot jumpers in the lane. But how many times does one of them catch the ball open and then have to pass right away, and I think if only they could shoot well enough that they had to be guarded, it would open up a lot of things for others.

That's why part of me would like a spare rebounder/dunker like Biz but another part wants a floor spacer/big body like Olynyk.


Biyombo is a terrible offensive player. Stone hands. Zero range. Bad ft shooter. Averages more TO’s than assists. I’m not sure if you saw him the first time around as a Raptor but he was very bad on that end.

I agree we’d be much better with an Olynyk type but that would cost assets.
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Re: Realistic upgrades at C? 

Post#199 » by Indeed » Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:11 pm

Kingsway_fan wrote:
Raptorfan2012 wrote:We could definitely use a 3rd C, but the easiest way to upgrade the C spot is to take away offensive responsibilities away from Precious. Nurse clearly likes him for his rebounding and defense, and he does provide a bit of rim protection. Treat Precious like Bismack; involve him with screens and cuts, but no more ball-handling around the perimeter and no more green light to shoot unless he is opened. Give some of those shot attempts to Barnes or Pascal.



agreed, but easier said than done... yes if Nurse just gave him the green light ONLY for dunks on offense, and for him to focus all his energies on defense and rebounding and passing .. he would be much more effective ... i just dont think Coach would do it or whether the player would react badly to such a restriction . imo


We got no one to make that pocket pass. Or maybe at most Dragic?
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Re: Realistic upgrades at C? 

Post#200 » by lstern » Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:41 am

Raps in 4 wrote:Precious/Birch have been fine. Getting an upgrade would require giving up talent.

We certainly have depth to give. As is, we're underplaying deserving players and we still don't have a fully healthy lineup.

1 Birch/ 2 Achiuwa/ 3 Boucher/ 4 Siakam/ 5 Anunoby/ 6 Barnes/ 7 Watanabe/ 8 Mykhailiuk/ 9 Trent/ 10 Banton/ 11 Dragic/ 12 Flynn/ 13 VanVleet

Those are all NBA players by my measure. A typical rotation consists of 8 core players, 10 solid players and some bubble talent, but we're very deep.

The most obvious trade asset is Dragic, some might even argue Boucher, especially since we're vying to get back a guy that would play his position. I think that Flynn might have some trade value around the league, but we really don't have anybody else that plays a traditional PG role, only Banton/ Barnes that could play minutes at the one.

I'd like to see this team focus on their future:
Achiuwa/ Siakam/ Anunoby/ Barnes/ Watanabe/ Mykhailiuk/ Trent/ Banton/ VanVleet
If we feel that Banton is a PG, especially in our switch-heavy defensive lineup that's simply looking to push the tempo, then the last need for this team is an athletic C that can guard the perimeter, but also can shoot, pass, dribble and match up against the elite bigs without looking too undersized or overwhelmed on either end.

In my opinion, that leaves very few realistic targets to truly fit the bill:
Christian Wood
Myles Turner
Thomas Bryant

Zach Collins
Maxi Kleber
Kelly Olynyk
Larry Nance Jr

Spoiler:
**Robert Williams
*Al Horford
Mason Plumlee
**Jarrett Allen
JaMychal Green
Kevon Looney
** Jarren Jackson Jr
*Bam Adebayo
*Giannis Antetokounmpo
Bobby Portis
Jaxson Hayes
Nerlens Noel
** Aleksej Pokusevski
** Mo Bamba
** Wendell Carter Jr
Frank Kaminsky
Cody Zeller
Marvin Bagley III
** Daniel Gafford
[* denotes an unrealistic target for the value of our assets; not get-able this season,
** denotes the names to keep an eye on, but their team has too much invested in them to give up on them this season]


The three bolded guys would be us swinging for the fences and likely including picks to go along with players I've numbered 1, 3, 11 & 12 above.
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