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Importance of acquiring a 7 footer

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Re: Importance of acquiring a 7 footer 

Post#121 » by Indeed » Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:56 pm

ATLTimekeeper wrote:
Indeed wrote:
vini_vidi_vici wrote:Anyone know who leads the L in fewest Opponents points in the paint??

Ill give you a hint, most of the people in this thread havent looked. We should look at the Cavs, 3rd most points in the paint, with their "bigs", as something to emulate though.


From basketball reference, opponent FG% from 0 - 3, we are giving up in the top 4 at 71.8%. Meaning opponents may not shoot a lot in the paint (or at 0 - 3), but the shooting percentage is among highest.

If you watch the last game, you probably know we have everyone come into the paint and protect the rim. In perfect scenario with our length, we can go out and contest 3 point shots. However, most of the time we are not perfect, and we were leading (now 2nd) in corner 3 attempts (29.7%).

In conclusion, we are not giving a lot of attempts in the paint, if we do, they are most likely going to score (71.8%). If they are able to make a pass to shooters (2nd in giving up corner 3), we need to be perfect in rotation and quick enough to contest them, and keep us in the middle of the league.

Or if we have a shot blocker (actually Birch isn't bad contesting shot, but probably not enough with just one), we may not need to collapse that much and stay with shooters. Just my thought.


They've given up the corner 3, but have taken away the above the break 3. So more role players are getting easy high % looks, but it's still a lower volume shot than the above the break 3. League high from the corners the last few years is 11-12 shots, and the Raptors have been up there. Above the break is around 30, and this year the Raptors are giving up 22. This is in part because Achiuwa and Birch can extend pretty far (although Birch is more conservative).

Given that Achiuwa, Barnes, Banton, Mykailiuk are all playing minutes this is pretty promising. As they gain experience in the league and in the system they'll be able to make more intuitive plays. Even Birch and Trent have barely been with the team.


We are giving up 35.3 attempts for 3s per 100 possessions, we are middle in giving up 3s, which is 14th this year. And 35.3% for opponent 3FG%, which is 12th (tied 10th) this year. So the result suggested we are not the top league in defending 3s. We are top team in defending the 2s in limiting 49.6% of opponent shots in 2 per 100 possessions being 26th, while shooting 52.4% being 12th.

So that tells me:
1) We are limiting 2FGA (26th), but opponent shooting percentage for 2 isn't bad (12th)
2) We are being average in 3FGA (14th), but opponent shooting percentage for 3 isn't bad (10th - 12th)

And how many 3s are being close to the defenders? We are near middle, but above the half (11th)
https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/opponent-shots-closest-defender/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CloseDefDistRange=6%2B%20Feet%20-%20Wide%20Open&sort=FG3A_FREQUENCY&dir=1

This clearly tells me that we are not contesting 3s above average and opponent are shooting above average for that reason. Why we are not contesting that much, which personally believe our focus is to defend the paint (limiting 2FGA).

If you are happy with our defense being average with giving up a lot in the half court offense, maybe it is ok with you. But so far we are below average in defending 3s. The raw points you use will be different with less possessions opponent gets, meaning like last game if we didn't get rebound / turnover well, opponent has the similar possessions, our defense will reflect how it was in the last game, slowly out scored by opponent.
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Re: Importance of acquiring a 7 footer 

Post#122 » by wegotthabeet » Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:35 pm

NotMyKawhi wrote:we need Jokic lol I know it would never happen but Pascal, flynn, Banton, 4 future 1sts, 4 future 1st swaps for Jokic

FVV
Trent
OG
Barnes
Jokic

is better than the current nuggets imo.


We're signing Jokic in 2023.

Banton
OG
Barnes
Siakam
Jokic

8-)
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Re: Importance of acquiring a 7 footer 

Post#123 » by ATLTimekeeper » Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:28 pm

Indeed wrote:
This clearly tells me that we are not contesting 3s above average and opponent are shooting above average for that reason. Why we are not contesting that much, which personally believe our focus is to defend the paint (limiting 2FGA).

If you are happy with our defense being average with giving up a lot in the half court offense, maybe it is ok with you. But so far we are below average in defending 3s. The raw points you use will be different with less possessions opponent gets, meaning like last game if we didn't get rebound / turnover well, opponent has the similar possessions, our defense will reflect how it was in the last game, slowly out scored by opponent.


I think you're misinterpreting my post. We're limiting above the break 3s, but conceding a higher than average amount of corner 3s. Don't worry too much about %s too much this early in the season. Look at who takes a lot of above the break 3s v. who takes corner 3s.

Top 15 Above the Break / From the corners

Steph / Rozier
Hield / Zaire Williams
Lillard / PJ Tucker
Mitchell /OG
Edwards /Grant
Luka / Robinson
Graham /Oubre
Clarkson / Bane
LeBron / Harris
Russell /Bojan Bogdanovic
Harden /Danny Green
George / Mikhail Bridges
McCollum / Harkless
Grayson Allen /Reggie Jackson
Reggie Jackson /Malik Beasley

They've taken away the paint, they've taken away the higher volume area of 3PT shots that tends to be the domain of high usage players. This is all without "rim protection."
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Re: Importance of acquiring a 7 footer 

Post#124 » by sidsid » Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:36 pm

wegotthabeet wrote:
NotMyKawhi wrote:we need Jokic lol I know it would never happen but Pascal, flynn, Banton, 4 future 1sts, 4 future 1st swaps for Jokic

FVV
Trent
OG
Barnes
Jokic

is better than the current nuggets imo.


We're signing Jokic in 2023.

Banton
OG
Barnes
Siakam
Jokic

8-)


You never know. If Murray doesn't come back looking the same, and MPJ's back issues keep limiting him. Pair that with a couple more playoff disappointments and Jokic may be looking at a capped out team he thinks he can't win with.

Fred declines his player option giving us max cap room and there you go, prime contender spot.

That's a 7 footer worth talking about.
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Re: Importance of acquiring a 7 footer 

Post#125 » by vini_vidi_vici » Wed Nov 10, 2021 6:00 pm

Theres so much going on here.

First the reason teams are so hyper efficient in the HC and inside the arc is....

We are the least efficient team with regards to PutBacks. We are giving more than 24 points per 100 possessions worse than the median, and in 30th by over 7 points per 100. Thats because of our defensive structure. Then PostUps were getting murdered there too (who cares though). Otherwise we have been great in PnR, and transition, and aside from guys hitting SpotUps, there really isnt much to complain about.

Re: Contesting shots. Teams are just hitting them at high rates regardless.

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If guys are hitting runners and guarded/contested Js, theres not much you can do (thus our poor rankings). Were 13th in % of guarded possessions.

If were worried about percentages over a small sample, okay, but we need more nuance.

None of this argument is indicative of a need for a C or a 7 footer though, which was my point.
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Re: Importance of acquiring a 7 footer 

Post#126 » by Johnny Bball » Wed Nov 10, 2021 6:10 pm

vini_vidi_vici wrote:Theres so much going on here.

First the reason teams are so hyper efficient in the HC and inside the arc is....

We are the least efficient team with regards to PutBacks. We are giving more than 24 points per 100 possessions worse than the median, and in 30th by over 7 points per 100. Thats because of our defensive structure. Then PostUps were getting murdered there too (who cares though). Otherwise we have been great in PnR, and transition, and aside from guys hitting SpotUps, there really isnt much to complain about.

Re: Contesting shots. Teams are just hitting them at high rates regardless.

Image

If guys are hitting runners and guarded/contested Js, theres not much you can do (thus our poor rankings). Were 13th in % of guarded possessions.

If were worried about percentages over a small sample, okay, but we need more nuance.

None of this argument is indicative of a need for a C or a 7 footer though, which was my point.


Last I looked teams were shooting a better percentage agaisnt us as they moved further from the rim. That also doesn't imply the need. Nobody needs a 7 footer.
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Re: Importance of acquiring a 7 footer 

Post#127 » by Indeed » Wed Nov 10, 2021 6:22 pm

ATLTimekeeper wrote:
Indeed wrote:
This clearly tells me that we are not contesting 3s above average and opponent are shooting above average for that reason. Why we are not contesting that much, which personally believe our focus is to defend the paint (limiting 2FGA).

If you are happy with our defense being average with giving up a lot in the half court offense, maybe it is ok with you. But so far we are below average in defending 3s. The raw points you use will be different with less possessions opponent gets, meaning like last game if we didn't get rebound / turnover well, opponent has the similar possessions, our defense will reflect how it was in the last game, slowly out scored by opponent.


I think you're misinterpreting my post. We're limiting above the break 3s, but conceding a higher than average amount of corner 3s. Don't worry too much about %s too much this early in the season. Look at who takes a lot of above the break 3s v. who takes corner 3s.

Top 15 Above the Break / From the corners

Steph / Rozier
Hield / Zaire Williams
Lillard / PJ Tucker
Mitchell /OG
Edwards /Grant
Luka / Robinson
Graham /Oubre
Clarkson / Bane
LeBron / Harris
Russell /Bojan Bogdanovic
Harden /Danny Green
George / Mikhail Bridges
McCollum / Harkless
Grayson Allen /Reggie Jackson
Reggie Jackson /Malik Beasley

They've taken away the paint, they've taken away the higher volume area of 3PT shots that tends to be the domain of high usage players. This is all without "rim protection."


Doesn't matter when opposing team simply shoots better from 3s.

The result of us being below average in allowing 3FGA and 3FG% don't seem to conclude the rim protection. We are forcing them to shoot 3, and the result is mixed due to those 3s are not being contested above average.

We are below average is opponent 3FG%, and we are allowing them to shoot above average, and the reason to me is that we gave up 3s to protect the paint. And now look at at rim FG%, we are among the top. Certainly we limit their attempts, but once they are at the rim, we are not stopping them.

Therefore, I think a rim protector is still needed as compare to collapsing the paint and gave up 3s, since opponent are shooting above average from 3s.
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Re: Importance of acquiring a 7 footer 

Post#128 » by 2019nbachamps » Wed Nov 10, 2021 6:26 pm

Our current starting C is making 38% of his shots. In my 25+ years of watching basketball I've never seen a C shoot that low. We absolutely need a better starting C.
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Re: Importance of acquiring a 7 footer 

Post#129 » by vini_vidi_vici » Wed Nov 10, 2021 6:40 pm

Indeed wrote:
ATLTimekeeper wrote:
Indeed wrote:
This clearly tells me that we are not contesting 3s above average and opponent are shooting above average for that reason. Why we are not contesting that much, which personally believe our focus is to defend the paint (limiting 2FGA).

If you are happy with our defense being average with giving up a lot in the half court offense, maybe it is ok with you. But so far we are below average in defending 3s. The raw points you use will be different with less possessions opponent gets, meaning like last game if we didn't get rebound / turnover well, opponent has the similar possessions, our defense will reflect how it was in the last game, slowly out scored by opponent.


I think you're misinterpreting my post. We're limiting above the break 3s, but conceding a higher than average amount of corner 3s. Don't worry too much about %s too much this early in the season. Look at who takes a lot of above the break 3s v. who takes corner 3s.

Top 15 Above the Break / From the corners

Steph / Rozier
Hield / Zaire Williams
Lillard / PJ Tucker
Mitchell /OG
Edwards /Grant
Luka / Robinson
Graham /Oubre
Clarkson / Bane
LeBron / Harris
Russell /Bojan Bogdanovic
Harden /Danny Green
George / Mikhail Bridges
McCollum / Harkless
Grayson Allen /Reggie Jackson
Reggie Jackson /Malik Beasley

They've taken away the paint, they've taken away the higher volume area of 3PT shots that tends to be the domain of high usage players. This is all without "rim protection."


Doesn't matter when opposing team simply shoots better from 3s.

The result of us being below average in allowing 3FGA and 3FG% don't seem to conclude the rim protection. We are forcing them to shoot 3, and the result is mixed due to those 3s are not being contested above average.

We are below average is opponent 3FG%, and we are allowing them to shoot above average, and the reason to me is that we gave up 3s to protect the paint. And now look at at rim FG%, we are among the top. Certainly we limit their attempts, but once they are at the rim, we are not stopping them.

Therefore, I think a rim protector is still needed as compare to collapsing the paint and gave up 3s, since opponent are shooting above average from 3s.


Because of PutBacks, because we funnel to our bigs for help, and they get alot of easy OREBs.

Your argument isnt that we need a rim protector, your argument is that we need to change our defensive identity to limit OREBs.
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Re: Importance of acquiring a 7 footer 

Post#130 » by ATLTimekeeper » Wed Nov 10, 2021 6:59 pm

Indeed wrote:
Doesn't matter when opposing team simply shoots better from 3s.

The result of us being below average in allowing 3FGA and 3FG% don't seem to conclude the rim protection. We are forcing them to shoot 3, and the result is mixed due to those 3s are not being contested above average.

We are below average is opponent 3FG%, and we are allowing them to shoot above average, and the reason to me is that we gave up 3s to protect the paint. And now look at at rim FG%, we are among the top. Certainly we limit their attempts, but once they are at the rim, we are not stopping them.

Therefore, I think a rim protector is still needed as compare to collapsing the paint and gave up 3s, since opponent are shooting above average from 3s.


Like I said, you need to wait out %s a bit because of early season variance, which can be impacted by schedule and all that. 35.3% last year 5th lowest. The year before that it was average. We don't know where they'll end up.
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Re: Importance of acquiring a 7 footer 

Post#131 » by Indeed » Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:43 pm

vini_vidi_vici wrote:
Indeed wrote:
ATLTimekeeper wrote:
I think you're misinterpreting my post. We're limiting above the break 3s, but conceding a higher than average amount of corner 3s. Don't worry too much about %s too much this early in the season. Look at who takes a lot of above the break 3s v. who takes corner 3s.

Top 15 Above the Break / From the corners

Steph / Rozier
Hield / Zaire Williams
Lillard / PJ Tucker
Mitchell /OG
Edwards /Grant
Luka / Robinson
Graham /Oubre
Clarkson / Bane
LeBron / Harris
Russell /Bojan Bogdanovic
Harden /Danny Green
George / Mikhail Bridges
McCollum / Harkless
Grayson Allen /Reggie Jackson
Reggie Jackson /Malik Beasley

They've taken away the paint, they've taken away the higher volume area of 3PT shots that tends to be the domain of high usage players. This is all without "rim protection."


Doesn't matter when opposing team simply shoots better from 3s.

The result of us being below average in allowing 3FGA and 3FG% don't seem to conclude the rim protection. We are forcing them to shoot 3, and the result is mixed due to those 3s are not being contested above average.

We are below average is opponent 3FG%, and we are allowing them to shoot above average, and the reason to me is that we gave up 3s to protect the paint. And now look at at rim FG%, we are among the top. Certainly we limit their attempts, but once they are at the rim, we are not stopping them.

Therefore, I think a rim protector is still needed as compare to collapsing the paint and gave up 3s, since opponent are shooting above average from 3s.


Because of PutBacks, because we funnel to our bigs for help, and they get alot of easy OREBs.

Your argument isnt that we need a rim protector, your argument is that we need to change our defensive identity to limit OREBs.


We are not funnel to our bigs, we are collapsing all our players to the middle, and leave out shooters. The stats shows they are making us pay for collapsing and leaving them too open, and those long rebounds are 50/50 from the last game we saw (Harden with 5 ORebs).

Now the question is if we don't collapse and instead of shot blockers, so that we do not let them shoot 3s (or open 3s, which we are ranked 12th for letting them shoot open 3s?), would that be a better strategy that we proved during our championship run?
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Re: Importance of acquiring a 7 footer 

Post#132 » by Indeed » Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:45 pm

ATLTimekeeper wrote:
Indeed wrote:
Doesn't matter when opposing team simply shoots better from 3s.

The result of us being below average in allowing 3FGA and 3FG% don't seem to conclude the rim protection. We are forcing them to shoot 3, and the result is mixed due to those 3s are not being contested above average.

We are below average is opponent 3FG%, and we are allowing them to shoot above average, and the reason to me is that we gave up 3s to protect the paint. And now look at at rim FG%, we are among the top. Certainly we limit their attempts, but once they are at the rim, we are not stopping them.

Therefore, I think a rim protector is still needed as compare to collapsing the paint and gave up 3s, since opponent are shooting above average from 3s.


Like I said, you need to wait out %s a bit because of early season variance, which can be impacted by schedule and all that. 35.3% last year 5th lowest. The year before that it was average. We don't know where they'll end up.


Or if you look at the last game against the Nets, it would be rather obvious
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202111070TOR.html

3PAr: 47.5%
3FG%: 44.7%

We can probably wait it out, but it seems last game is just going up instead of down. And this will be critical going forward on how teams are picking to score against us.
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Re: Importance of acquiring a 7 footer 

Post#133 » by ATLTimekeeper » Wed Nov 10, 2021 8:28 pm

Indeed wrote:
ATLTimekeeper wrote:
Indeed wrote:
Doesn't matter when opposing team simply shoots better from 3s.

The result of us being below average in allowing 3FGA and 3FG% don't seem to conclude the rim protection. We are forcing them to shoot 3, and the result is mixed due to those 3s are not being contested above average.

We are below average is opponent 3FG%, and we are allowing them to shoot above average, and the reason to me is that we gave up 3s to protect the paint. And now look at at rim FG%, we are among the top. Certainly we limit their attempts, but once they are at the rim, we are not stopping them.

Therefore, I think a rim protector is still needed as compare to collapsing the paint and gave up 3s, since opponent are shooting above average from 3s.


Like I said, you need to wait out %s a bit because of early season variance, which can be impacted by schedule and all that. 35.3% last year 5th lowest. The year before that it was average. We don't know where they'll end up.


Or if you look at the last game against the Nets, it would be rather obvious
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202111070TOR.html

3PAr: 47.5%
3FG%: 44.7%

We can probably wait it out, but it seems last game is just going up instead of down. And this will be critical going forward on how teams are picking to score against us.


If we just looked at one game samples we wouldn't be making good points. This system has been in place for several years.
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Re: Importance of acquiring a 7 footer 

Post#134 » by Indeed » Wed Nov 10, 2021 8:33 pm

ATLTimekeeper wrote:
Indeed wrote:
ATLTimekeeper wrote:
Like I said, you need to wait out %s a bit because of early season variance, which can be impacted by schedule and all that. 35.3% last year 5th lowest. The year before that it was average. We don't know where they'll end up.


Or if you look at the last game against the Nets, it would be rather obvious
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202111070TOR.html

3PAr: 47.5%
3FG%: 44.7%

We can probably wait it out, but it seems last game is just going up instead of down. And this will be critical going forward on how teams are picking to score against us.


If we just looked at one game samples we wouldn't be making good points. This system has been in place for several years.


I thought the time we had Gasol, we didn't collapse that much (less over helping). Our defense last year wasn't great, ranked 15th in DRtg, so I am not sure this is in place for several years. And this year we were over helping much more.

Meanwhile, when we have Boucher on the floor, our DRtg is better, which to me, a shot blocker like Boucher helps in some aspect. Even though he is not able to switch and defend Harden last game (giving Harden too much space to shoot), but I feel he impacts the defensive end.
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Re: Importance of acquiring a 7 footer 

Post#135 » by WaltFrazier » Wed Nov 10, 2021 8:43 pm

OakleyDokely wrote:
WaltFrazier wrote:
OakleyDokely wrote:
But I don't get why someone needs to be 7ft to be effective. Precious and Birch have both been good defensively and on the boards and neither is a 7fter. I guess you can upgrade offensively on them, but usually you have to sacrifice defensively, unless you can add an all-star caliber player, which I'd be all for. But I don't see many of those type of guys available.


"7 footer" is a red herring, a straw man. 6"10, 6'11 is fine. As someone else posted earlier, the key is, a shot blocker. A rim protector. Birch is fine but he is not quite that.


But size doesn't dictate your ability to be a good shot blocker and rim protector. Ben Wallace was great rim protector and he was 6'8, 6'9. And there are a lot or big guys who don't protect the rim. The decision should always be skills over size.


Agree. Wallace played bigger than his height because he could jump so high. He also did have 6'11 Rasheed Wallace to play beside him. A young Ben Wallace to go with Birch would be awesome.
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Re: Importance of acquiring a 7 footer 

Post#136 » by WaltFrazier » Wed Nov 10, 2021 8:49 pm

God Squad wrote:
Los Soles wrote:
WaltFrazier wrote:Underachieved is a vague, fuzzy, subjective term. And who knows about listed heights in the NBA?

Marc Gasol is sometimes listed as 6"11, always looked taller to me. But him, Pau Gasol, Joel Embiid, KG, Tim Duncan.
Serge. Yao Ming cut short by injuries.

You can split hairs about 6'11 vs 7'0 or more, or were KG and TD forwards. But they played like centers.

I will split hairs, because thread title. Literally every guy on your list fails in at least one of the following ways:

  • Not actually 7 feet tall
  • Spent a significant chunk of career playing not center
  • Zero titles as one of the best players on the team
This is the whole point. There was a time when the whole league believed a true 7-footer at C next to an also tall (circa 6-10 or 6-11) but more skilled PF (e.g., Timmy or KG) was ideal. But those days are gone, primarily because those true 7-footers failed again and again and again. They got injured, were too slow, and/or lacked the skills (Yao Ming, Roy Hibbert, Hasheem Thabeet, Greg Oden, Emeka Okafor, Kwame Brown, etc.). The most successful "centers" were PFs who started playing more center.

And yet here we are, still talking about 7-footers. Now you're saying that line isn't really the key. Ok...so where is the line then? Thread title says 7-footer. You think the arbitrary line is actually...what? 6-11? 6-10?

Wrong. The game moved into more perimeter scoring pg/sg/sf. In the 90's 2000's it was all about either having a big low post center to either be a star, or stop an opposing star. In terms of 6'11 or 6'10 it really doesn't matter. But they have to "PLAY" like a weak side shot blocking center. I said previously I'd like a Miles Turner type ( 6'11) but not specifically him. Also because they game moved into a more guard style, none of those bigs you mentioned could adapt to the three point line and some couldn't guard in space/ PnR.


Last year Boucher had the weak-side shot blocking going great, but he couldn't guard bigger guys in the post, they just overpowered him. So yeah, a guy with weakside shot blocking plus the ability to hold his own in the paint banging would help, would be a good guy to alternate with Birch.
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Re: Importance of acquiring a 7 footer 

Post#137 » by WaltFrazier » Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:04 pm

Zeno wrote:Anyone else a bit concerned with how definitively Khem has been ruled out of the next two games. I don't think we particularly need a 7 footer like this thread suggests but we do need Birch quite a bit.


Yes Birch's injury points out the need for 3 centers. Hopefully it's just a few games as Nurse has said. But in 2019, people forget, when JV got his thump broken and Serge had to start, Greg Monroe was very valuable as the 3rd C now moved up to backup. At the deadline JV got traded for Gasol and poor Monroe got dumped, and luckily Marc and Serge both stayed healthy through the title run.

But a 3rd C is valuable when injures inevitably happen. Ideally Achiuwa would be that 3rd C if we could acquire a better partner for Birch.
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Re: Importance of acquiring a 7 footer 

Post#138 » by WaltFrazier » Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:22 pm

Los Soles wrote:
WaltFrazier wrote:Underachieved is a vague, fuzzy, subjective term. And who knows about listed heights in the NBA?

Marc Gasol is sometimes listed as 6"11, always looked taller to me. But him, Pau Gasol, Joel Embiid, KG, Tim Duncan.
Serge. Yao Ming cut short by injuries.

You can split hairs about 6'11 vs 7'0 or more, or were KG and TD forwards. But they played like centers.

I will split hairs, because thread title. Literally every guy on your list fails in at least one of the following ways:

  • Not actually 7 feet tall
  • Spent a significant chunk of career playing not center
  • Zero titles as one of the best players on the team
This is the whole point. There was a time when the whole league believed a true 7-footer at C next to an also tall (circa 6-10 or 6-11) but more skilled PF (e.g., Timmy or KG) was ideal. But those days are gone, primarily because those true 7-footers failed again and again and again. They got injured, were too slow, and/or lacked the skills (Yao Ming, Roy Hibbert, Hasheem Thabeet, Greg Oden, Emeka Okafor, Kwame Brown, etc.). The most successful "centers" were PFs who started playing more center.

And yet here we are, still talking about 7-footers. Now you're saying that line isn't really the key. Ok...so where is the line then? Thread title says 7-footer. You think the arbitrary line is actually...what? 6-11? 6-10?


I don't consider guys who got injured early in their career to be failures. Yao Ming was very effective in the 90s, the Shaq era, before he got hurt. Oden we'll never know.

The Mavericks' championship team had Tyson Chandler, not a skilled guy but a 7 foot rebounder and defender, and then the luxury of Brendan Haywood backing up. I recall an analyst in those finals saying what a bonus it was that Cuban was willing to go over the tax to keep Haywood even after he lost his spot to Chandler.

The Gasols can't be called failures by any stretch.

The thread title says 7 footer, not my words. There are guys who play big, and are suited to playing center, playing low post D. Durant is 6'11, probably 7 feet, but you don't want him playing low post D against centers.

There are 2 issues here: one is would another real center, as good or better than Birch, hopefully a bit bigger, improve the team. I say yes.

The other is about how the game changed.
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Re: Importance of acquiring a 7 footer 

Post#139 » by johanliebert » Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:32 pm

WaltFrazier wrote:
Los Soles wrote:
WaltFrazier wrote:Underachieved is a vague, fuzzy, subjective term. And who knows about listed heights in the NBA?

Marc Gasol is sometimes listed as 6"11, always looked taller to me. But him, Pau Gasol, Joel Embiid, KG, Tim Duncan.
Serge. Yao Ming cut short by injuries.

You can split hairs about 6'11 vs 7'0 or more, or were KG and TD forwards. But they played like centers.

I will split hairs, because thread title. Literally every guy on your list fails in at least one of the following ways:

  • Not actually 7 feet tall
  • Spent a significant chunk of career playing not center
  • Zero titles as one of the best players on the team
This is the whole point. There was a time when the whole league believed a true 7-footer at C next to an also tall (circa 6-10 or 6-11) but more skilled PF (e.g., Timmy or KG) was ideal. But those days are gone, primarily because those true 7-footers failed again and again and again. They got injured, were too slow, and/or lacked the skills (Yao Ming, Roy Hibbert, Hasheem Thabeet, Greg Oden, Emeka Okafor, Kwame Brown, etc.). The most successful "centers" were PFs who started playing more center.

And yet here we are, still talking about 7-footers. Now you're saying that line isn't really the key. Ok...so where is the line then? Thread title says 7-footer. You think the arbitrary line is actually...what? 6-11? 6-10?


I don't consider guys who got injured early in their career to be failures. Yao Ming was very effective in the 90s, the Shaq era, before he got hurt. Oden we'll never know.

The Mavericks' championship team had Tyson Chandler, not a skilled guy but a 7 foot rebounder and defender, and then the luxury of Brendan Haywood backing up. I recall an analyst in those finals saying what a bonus it was that Cuban was willing to go over the tax to keep Haywood even after he lost his spot to Chandler.

The Gasols can't be called failures by any stretch.

The thread title says 7 footer, not my words. There are guys who play big, and are suited to playing center, playing low post D. Durant is 6'11, probably 7 feet, but you don't want him playing low post D against centers.

There are 2 issues here: one is would another real center, as good or better than Birch, hopefully a bit bigger, improve the team. I say yes.

The other is about how the game changed.

From what I’ve heard from retired players Shaq was the reason a generation of centres opted to play the 4 position. The likes of dirk/kg/Duncan didn’t want to bang with shaq and other brutes.
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Re: Importance of acquiring a 7 footer 

Post#140 » by Indeed » Wed Nov 10, 2021 10:15 pm

WaltFrazier wrote:
Zeno wrote:Anyone else a bit concerned with how definitively Khem has been ruled out of the next two games. I don't think we particularly need a 7 footer like this thread suggests but we do need Birch quite a bit.


Yes Birch's injury points out the need for 3 centers. Hopefully it's just a few games as Nurse has said. But in 2019, people forget, when JV got his thump broken and Serge had to start, Greg Monroe was very valuable as the 3rd C now moved up to backup. At the deadline JV got traded for Gasol and poor Monroe got dumped, and luckily Marc and Serge both stayed healthy through the title run.

But a 3rd C is valuable when injures inevitably happen. Ideally Achiuwa would be that 3rd C if we could acquire a better partner for Birch.


Ideally, Achiuwa plays PF/SF with his ability to handle the ball. And ideally, Boucher can play C.
But nothing is ideal. I don't think we can keep Achiuwa/Boucher/Siakam/Barnes to play PF. Outside of Siakam and Barnes, we might need to move one to acquire a backup/prospect C. Boucher shot blocking is very helpful, but most likely he is the odd man right now.

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