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I think it's very apparent when watching Raptors basketball of how important center play is for all aspects of our team. You can see how good of a team we really are even when we play an average center like Birch. It really balances our defense, offense and rebounding but yet we continue to have rosters that cannot give us a 48 minutes of decent center play. While Precious shows flashes, it is clear that he would benefit from spending time in the G League.

The whole advantage of Barnes/Siakam/OG is to use their length/speed on the perimeter and in the passing lanes. It's not to be stuck in the paint while they're clearly outmatched against the other teams center. You're putting them in positions to be in foul trouble while also taxing their bodies physically in the long term. This is why I do not want to see starting lineups of Siakam at Center any longer. Not only does it bring the worst out of Siakam who actually is closer to a SF than a C, it kills our team at the same time.

Let's just compare the 2 Celtics games this year for example. In the first game, we completely abused the Celtics down low by dominating the paint. Today, it was completely a different story with the Celtics dominating the paint with us looking pathetic out there. The simple difference was that we didn't have Birch even though we added Siakam and the Celtics loss Brown.

I really hope Masai/Webster/Nurse start putting more urgency towards realizing that the backbone of all great defenses is good center play. I dont understand why Masai and company have shifted against the style that had us with the 2nd best record in the NBA before covid when we had Gasol/Ibaka. Not saying we need the equivalent of them but at least get some useful big bodies here.

Ibaka was about Giannis, Gasol was washed. It always comes down to Who could we have realistically acquired to replace them? Otherwise this is just wishful thinking. Im sure Masai and Webster would love a good centre to fill out this rotaiton

Birch is solid, he fills the role well enough for now.

positionless basketball!

Height and length aren't enough. Strength and toughness are needed as well.

In Precious case, BBIQ is needed above all.

Masai figured Achiuwa would be a half decent Centre but instead looks like he belongs in the 905.

He hyped the sh*t out of this guy in the press conference.

Well we went from like #1 in rebounding to pretty much dead last once Siakam entered the starting lineup, no Birch.

I mean we do have 2 centers normally.

What's really concerning is Precious not willing to pass on a fast break 2 on 1 for an easy bucket, showing how much it's a get yours.

We've also become the worst 3 point shooting team. And when our 3 point shots aren't falling, at least Scottie is showing up every night scoring pretty well.

But yeah to go from first to worst in rebounding is telling, as at least when our shot isn't falling, the rebounding keeps us in.

Current solution is to take out Trent or Barnes to put Birch in.

I think it’s safe to say that that unpopular opinion is to put Barnes on the bench but it shouldn’t matter as long as cohesion is rock solid for the bench and the starters. It’s who ends the game rather than start the game.

Birch is probably the glue guy now who does everything no one wants to do. Cut to the middle of the paint for east baskets/push shots/floaters

LBJKB24MJ23 wrote:Current solution is to take out Trent or Barnes to put Birch in.

I think it’s safe to say that that unpopular opinion is to put Barnes on the bench but it shouldn’t matter as long as cohesion is rock solid for the bench and the starters. It’s who ends the game rather than start the game.

Birch is probably the glue guy now who does everything no one wants to do. Cut to the middle of the paint for east baskets/push shots/floaters

I'd probably say Barnes because he can more easily get shots that way, plus he'd be playing against the other bench which should make it even easier for him.

Plus it should provide better shooting for the starting lineup, and he can still get 30 minutes.

links135 wrote:

LBJKB24MJ23 wrote:Current solution is to take out Trent or Barnes to put Birch in.

I think it’s safe to say that that unpopular opinion is to put Barnes on the bench but it shouldn’t matter as long as cohesion is rock solid for the bench and the starters. It’s who ends the game rather than start the game.

Birch is probably the glue guy now who does everything no one wants to do. Cut to the middle of the paint for east baskets/push shots/floaters

I'd probably say Barnes because he can more easily get shots that way, plus he'd be playing against the other bench which should make it even easier for him.

Plus it should provide better shooting for the starting lineup, and he can still get 30 minutes.

I'd prefer to see the lineup of Fred-OG-Barnes-Siakam-Birch before I decide to take out our best player thus far from the starting lineup. I understand the shooting is ugly but the defense/rebounding potential is insane.

You need a lot of BB IQ at that position. It's one of the reasons we were able to beat GS in 2019. They lacked a C to anchor a defense. They are about the only team that can get away with not having one and still have a chance at winning it all.

Wtf. I have to wonder how you watch that game, where they play the same size centre as we do, and this is what people complain about.

Pretty easy to see we didn't shoot well, turned it over too much and our bench was absolute garbage. Even with the first two we might even have found a way to win if the bench didn't just completely stink.

Ball creation and Center.

These are the two focus of the team going forward.

links135 wrote:Well we went from like #1 in rebounding to pretty much dead last once Siakam entered the starting lineup, no Birch.

I mean we do have 2 centers normally.

What's really concerning is Precious not willing to pass on a fast break 2 on 1 for an easy bucket, showing how much it's a get yours.

We've also become the worst 3 point shooting team. And when our 3 point shots aren't falling, at least Scottie is showing up every night scoring pretty well.

But yeah to go from first to worst in rebounding is telling, as at least when our shot isn't falling, the rebounding keeps us in.

Yeah, that play was just a flat out embarrassment....something you would expect see in pickup games at the YMCA.

I feel the NBA game moves at a speed that might be too fast for Precious to process right now....he will likely get better over time. He'd probably look better on a team that plays with more structure/defined roles on offense as well.

On the flipside, one could argue that ball IQ is an inherent talent in the same way as speed and athleticism. Barnes, Banton, Flynn, Svi, Champagnie, etc are all young, developing players but they can make basic reads and execute basic plays. OG, Siakam both came into NBA raw but were able to start right away and not look out of place like Precious.....I'm willing to give him a full season or two but I still see him as a future bench guy/not starting 5.

Lot of posters needed a reality check with Achiuwa. Guy is still a raw prospect. In MLB or NHL, he'd be in the minors 100%. Overhyped and he's got clear selfish tendencies.

ItsDanger wrote:Lot of posters needed a reality check with Achiuwa. Guy is still a raw prospect. In MLB or NHL, he'd be in the minors 100%. Overhyped and he's got clear selfish tendencies.

He's a pretty talented guy but the problem is he tries to do WAY to much. If he just focused on easy buckets, rebounds, passing and solid Defense he'd be solid. I think in his mind he's Michael Jordan like a lot of guys on the team but most of the all time greats were amazing passers like magic and Bird. Today it's Lebron and Luka..... PASS THE BALL!!!

ItsDanger wrote:Lot of posters needed a reality check with Achiuwa. Guy is still a raw prospect. In MLB or NHL, he'd be in the minors 100%. Overhyped and he's got clear selfish tendencies.

It's totally because Masai traded the best player in our franchise for him all while picking up a 19.5M tab on Dragic so he can sit on the bench.

People just assume that Precious has to be a star in the making because that's one stupidly expensive prospect, and more often than not Masai has been right.

Johnny Bball wrote:Wtf. I have to wonder how you watch that game, where they play the same size centre as we do, and this is what people complain about.

Pretty easy to see we didn't shoot well, turned it over too much and our bench was absolute garbage. Even with the first two we might even have found a way to win if the bench didn't just completely stink.

I'm wondering what the hell you're watching if you think Williams and Horford are the same size as Siakam and Barnes. It was clear as hell that they totally dominated us inside with their size. Williams had several putbacks and offensive rebounds where he didn't even have to jump.

Oh and newsflash, the things you said we didn't do well, we haven't done well practically all season. We've had our rebounding and defense allow us to take several more shots per game than the opposing teams. This is what has kept us in games.

So please actually watch the games before you accuse others of not doing so. Or maybe you just struggle to understand basketball...

LBJKB24MJ23 wrote:Current solution is to take out Trent or Barnes to put Birch in.

I think it’s safe to say that that unpopular opinion is to put Barnes on the bench but it shouldn’t matter as long as cohesion is rock solid for the bench and the starters. It’s who ends the game rather than start the game.

Birch is probably the glue guy now who does everything no one wants to do. Cut to the middle of the paint for east baskets/push shots/floaters

I prefer Trent to the bench so the raps can take advantage of size on offence. OG, Barnes or Siakam go at the opposing 2 guard to get things going. Either they abuse in the post or get the ball moving if the double comes. They are all good at the big to big pass or finding the open shooter.

I think this is the way forward. Solves the rebounding issues and creates an offensive mismatch to attack. Trent can let it fly with the second unit.


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DatHomieYouHaTe wrote:

ItsDanger wrote:Lot of posters needed a reality check with Achiuwa. Guy is still a raw prospect. In MLB or NHL, he'd be in the minors 100%. Overhyped and he's got clear selfish tendencies.

He's a pretty talented guy but the problem is he tries to do WAY to much. If he just focused on easy buckets, rebounds, passing and solid Defense he'd be solid. I think in his mind he's Michael Jordan like a lot of guys on the team but most of the all time greats were amazing passers like magic and Bird. Today it's Lebron and Luka..... PASS THE BALL!!!

Exactly this. Maybe its a 'development' season so they allow Precious to try new things, but IMO if they really want Precious to be a C, then they should just work on the fundamentals like better rim protection (he is not bad, but can improve), tip ins, cuts, post moves etc. Stop letting Precious handle the ball or having him float around the 3 point line.

Tor_Raps wrote:

Johnny Bball wrote:Wtf. I have to wonder how you watch that game, where they play the same size centre as we do, and this is what people complain about.

Pretty easy to see we didn't shoot well, turned it over too much and our bench was absolute garbage. Even with the first two we might even have found a way to win if the bench didn't just completely stink.

I'm wondering what the hell you're watching if you think Williams and Horford are the same size as Siakam and Barnes. It was clear as hell that they totally dominated us inside with their size. Williams had several putbacks and offensive rebounds where he didn't even have to jump.

Oh and newsflash, the things you said we didn't do well, we haven't done well practically all season. We've had our rebounding and defense allow us to take several more shots per game than the opposing teams. This is what has kept us in games.

So please actually watch the games before you accuse others of not doing so. Or maybe you just struggle to understand basketball...

How many?

I posted this elsewhere, but I have screen caps of every OREB in the first 7 of the 8. In all of them, a C could do 0.

OREB#1


Scottie cheats too much on Horford, despite OG getting a good contest on the PostUp. Balls bounces weakside, Williams dunks.

OREB#2


PnR, Spicy gets lost, leaving a 2v1 on Socttie down low. Spicy instead of going to the other big as Scottie picks up Horford, leaves FVV alone trying to crack down, and hes on Williams back hopoing SPicy gets a body on him, he doesnt. Pass out the 3, FVV forced to contest, Spicy with the worst boxout in NBA history, easy OREB.

OREB#3


4v2 (with GTJ in a light jog geting back) in transition. Achiuwa makes the right read to contest it leaves FVV boxing out Williams. Easy 2.

OREB#4


FVV with some pathetic D on a slip screen, forces Boucher to crack down to contest Smart, and Scottie slides over. Pass to the cutter, and Boucher contests, which leaves FVV boxing out Williams. Another easy 2.

OREB#5


Drive by Grant, hits the corner, were rotating, ball find Tatum guarded by Spicy, he bites on the stutter step and contests the 3. Boucher doesnt put a body on him, long board strong side.

OREB#6


Shot from the 3, Scottie boxing out, but we need GTJ to be tighter on the crackdown so Williams has nowhere to go, he doesnt it bounces over Scottie, easy OREB.

OREB#7


Same play, off the OREB, scramble ensues, Tatum finds the ball and again SPicy with 0 defense. Scottie comes over to help and contest, beautifully. Williams who was looking for the lob had GTJ on his back and the bad miss by Tatum (doesnt touch the rim, shouldnt have been an OREB), falls into WIlliams hands, another easy 2.

And thats 7 OREBs in the first half, we did much better at containing that in the second half (only 3 OREBs). We have a system that is reliant on guys covering the dunkers position (esp smalls), because we always help on penetration. Youre going to give up alot of Iverson ASTs, if guys like Spicy plays that bad defensively on the perimeter.

Maybe you should watch the game?? Or understand/identify what you are seeing??

Tor_Raps wrote:

ItsDanger wrote:Lot of posters needed a reality check with Achiuwa. Guy is still a raw prospect. In MLB or NHL, he'd be in the minors 100%. Overhyped and he's got clear selfish tendencies.

It's totally because Masai traded the best player in our franchise for him all while picking up a 19.5M tab on Dragic so he can sit on the bench.

People just assume that Precious has to be a star in the making because that's one stupidly expensive prospect, and more often than not Masai has been right.

would you have preferred nothing in exchange for KLow? Precious was a first round draft pick & is definitely outperforming his pick (#20). he's not ready yet - we're prioritizing giving the young guys run so he can be ready when we need him to be

the focus this year is not winning games by all means. it's winning games WHILE prioritizing development