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Nurse Riding Starters Too Much?

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Nurse Riding Starters Too Much?

Poll ended at Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:14 pm

Yes
61
81%
No
14
19%
 
Total votes: 75

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Re: Nurse Riding Starters Too Much? 

Post#41 » by JShuttlesworth » Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:06 pm

I personally think that Fred (38.7), Anunoby (37.3), and Barnes (35.5) are all playing too many minutes. Nurse is doing what he thinks is right to him games, but it could backfire on him with injuries. Fred and OG haven't been super durable over their careers, and now you got Siakam banging around with C's.

Fred (38.7)
Trent Jr. (34.6)
Anunoby (37.3)
Barnes (35.5)
Siakam (32.3)*

Siakam played 37.0 per game over the las two. Nurse is just putting the starters out there and playing them us much as possible.

Dragic should play, especially if we aren't letting Flynn play.
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Re: Nurse Riding Starters Too Much? 

Post#42 » by sidsid » Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:15 pm

It's always a mistake to overplay guys in the regular season. There's a reason Pop was fine with sitting guys and getting fined for tanking nationally televised games. Why heliocentric teams end up collapsing and injured in late playoff runs. The tortoise and the hare. Etc.

You end up paying for it later. Kyle routinely breaking down near the end of those first few playoff years.

OG doesn't let Grant beat him at the end of that Piston's game if he has fresh legs. Siakam reaching and fouling late is a classic sign of a guy gambling instead of defending when fatigue sets in. Shots falling short when you need them. Mental mistakes, etc.

The bench:

Ibaka was known for being a guy who needed a bit of runway before he could get it in gear, which would have never happened if he played in 2-4 minute spurts.

If you think it's hard for starters to gain chemistry when they're playing 20+ minutes a night together, imagine playing less than half that with guys rotating in every 2 minutes.

It's on Nurse to set some rotations, stick to minutes, and let the guys work. Flynn has been routinely good at running the team in his very limited minutes. That the rotating bench crew doesn't produce in the, like, 5 possessions they play together isn't going to change if they get no burn.

And lastly - it's a development year! There is no combination of rotations or absurd luck that gets this team a championship this year. Fighting for the 5th seed instead of a bubble birth is irrelevant.

This is objectively and undeniably a terrible coaching decision considering the circumstances. Nurse is a league wide outlier yet again. Giannis doesn't play minutes like this and the Bucks aren't playing great now either. It'll be very funny seeing someone rationalize why any one of our guys is more important than Giannis, and have more to play for than the Bucks this year, but I don't doubt they'll try.
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Re: Nurse Riding Starters Too Much? 

Post#43 » by ruckus » Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:18 pm

Is there a proven correlation between minutes, fatigue and injury? I mean on the surface sure, it's an easy leap to make but thats not always the case when we dig a little deeper.

I'd like to see the bench guys play more but if it isn't conducive to winning, it's not gonna happen.
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Re: Nurse Riding Starters Too Much? 

Post#44 » by Lateral Quicks » Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:39 pm

Nurse has always rode his starters hard, but he's going overboard by even his standards this year.

The problem isn't lack of NBA calibre depth, but lack of offense off the bench. Too many of our bench players can't shoot. Aside from Svi, no one off the bench that has been getting regular playing time can shoot the 3. That's a glaring weakness.

I think we need to see Flynn get more playing time. He can take some load off FVV, shoot the 3, and create for the second unit.

We also need to see better staggering of lineups, so that we avoid having 4-5 guys out there at a time that can't shoot it.
Nick Nurse recounting his first meeting with Kawhi:
“We could have gone forever. (Raptors management) kept knocking on the door and I was like, ‘A couple more minutes.’ Because we were really into it."
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Re: Nurse Riding Starters Too Much? 

Post#45 » by sidsid » Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:54 pm

ruckus wrote:Is there a proven correlation between minutes, fatigue and injury? I mean on the surface sure, it's an easy leap to make but thats not always the case when we dig a little deeper.

I'd like to see the bench guys play more but if it isn't conducive to winning, it's not gonna happen.


A different sport and yadda yadda, but a running back's career longevity is measured in carries more than it is in years or age.

Minutes might not be the best indicator in basketball. Mileage is maybe a better metric, but our guys do a ton of running around out there too.

Even on a purely minutes based read, and not even factoring in fatigue: the longer a player is out there, the more chances they have of getting injured. The front office has a vested interest in keeping it's long term investments healthy, especially in a development year with a lot of youth.
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Re: Nurse Riding Starters Too Much? 

Post#46 » by aligator » Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:04 am

Opinion seems highly in favour of a different approach. So do we want to fire Nurse? Or is Masai the villain here? He can instruct Nurse to handle things differently if he so wishes.

Definitely the PG minutes needs to change. One of Dragic or Flynn should play substantially more minutes. Banton should be in the G league for now.
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Re: Nurse Riding Starters Too Much? 

Post#47 » by Duffman100 » Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:07 am

Johnny Bball wrote:
Duffman100 wrote:I'm not a huge Flynn fan. But he went out there and produced in a short period and then didn't get any more burn.

We need to start letting our bench guys fail and maybe lose games. Keeping them on a short leash isn't doing anyone any good.


There's no maybe.

And I've never believed it was good management to give someone so much rope they can hang themselves.

As for Nurse is injuring players... those people have no idea what they are talking about, they have no clue why Thibs teams got injured yet they think they do, they blame every injury on Nurse like it's fact, and none of that is true either. They just want to bitch and moan.


I think there's a middle ground between enough rope to hang oneself and so little rope you can't showcase / develop.

It is a problem that our starters are playing a lot of minutes. OG had no legs down the stretch of the game...

Either way, I'd be happy to sacrifice a few games here and there and get some of our bench guys more run. I'd rather a higher lottery pick.
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Re: Nurse Riding Starters Too Much? 

Post#48 » by FluLikeSymptoms » Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:15 am

Nick can’t punish everyone at once. I thought Banton could’ve used another shot in the 2nd half.
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Re: Nurse Riding Starters Too Much? 

Post#49 » by TravisScott55 » Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:24 am

He's worse than Thibs
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Re: Nurse Riding Starters Too Much? 

Post#50 » by Deadpool Raptor » Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:32 am

seanbig wrote:THis happens every ***** year

Nick thibs rides our players into the ground cuz our bench sucks

then our starters get injured and nick is FORCED to play the bench...

suddenly the bench players end up playing well and then suddenly the depth of our team is better :banghead:

Nick keeps on having a short leash on the bench, and really its bad for the team....

This isn't playoffs Nick....he will never learn :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:


Could there be a chance that the bench is developing over the course of the year?

There are other ways to develop, doesn't have to be live minutes.
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Re: Nurse Riding Starters Too Much? 

Post#51 » by seanbig » Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:36 am

ruckus wrote:Is there a proven correlation between minutes, fatigue and injury? I mean on the surface sure, it's an easy leap to make but thats not always the case when we dig a little deeper.

I'd like to see the bench guys play more but if it isn't conducive to winning, it's not gonna happen.


As per my orthopedic surgeon in medical school- yes and this is from 2000

There is no time for recovery in an nba season until the offseason

And raptors minutes aren’t Phoenix suns minutes

38 minutes is likely like playing the entire game on other teams due to how hard nurse wants players to play

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4974851/
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Re: Nurse Riding Starters Too Much? 

Post#52 » by gbball » Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:19 am

I don't know what the rationale for overplaying the starters is. But I imagine it's something like the following:

The the bench is no good and you need your starters in as much as possible to win. If the bench plays more, we'll lose for sure.

I would argue giving the bench a bigger role will pay dividends in the short and long term. In the short term, there will be times that the bench gives you nothing, but at least you spell your main guys and they can stay fresh throughout the game. There will be games that they lose ground, games where they gain ground, games where they don't change the differential and games where they get you back into a game when you're down big and then games where they blow things open where you're already up. In the long term, you get to see what you have, and your young bench players likely get better with more responsibility/increased reps. Not to mention you keep your main guys fresher throughout the year.

Nurse has proven that he's willing to lose games while overplaying our starters, both when they clearly don't have it during blowouts and when games are close and our main guys make mistakes at key moments of the game down the stretch (potentially due to fatigue...in OGs case I think this is absolutely a factor).

Each year when we inevitably lose starters to injury, Nurse gets tons of praise for finding ways to win with his backup players, and I guarantee that if a couple of our starters miss some time here and there, we'll get a 'surprising' contribution from the bench.

At this point its a pattern dating all the way back to the Philadelphia series in 2019. It was on full display against Boston in the playoffs the following year, then most glaringly at the beginning of last season when we started horribly while running or main guys into the ground.

I've been critical of Nurse in the past mainly for his stubbornness and questionable use of personnel. I can look past his defense first approach (as opposed to something more holistic). And I do think he'll use games like the last few as teaching moments. Most importantly, I recognize that our team is really young and doesn't have a lot of continuity, so we'll be making mistakes in terms of both familiarity and experience. However, I've found these early season starts frustratingly myopic. There doesn't seem to be much recognition of strengths and weakness. We haven't been winning and he's doubling down on things that aren't working. I get the feeling at times that he's coaching to see his system executed to perfection rather than the game in front of him.

I'll be happy to be proven wrong and I feel like I've said this before, but maybe there is a method to the madness. I'll gladly give him his flowers if that's the case. I just don't see any growth from him these last 3 years in regards to what I see as his coaching weaknesses. As bad of a coach as Casey was in some regards, he got better each year he was here, I'm not sure I can say the same about Nurse.
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Re: Nurse Riding Starters Too Much? 

Post#53 » by Johnny Bball » Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:24 am

Duffman100 wrote:
Johnny Bball wrote:
Duffman100 wrote:I'm not a huge Flynn fan. But he went out there and produced in a short period and then didn't get any more burn.

We need to start letting our bench guys fail and maybe lose games. Keeping them on a short leash isn't doing anyone any good.


There's no maybe.

And I've never believed it was good management to give someone so much rope they can hang themselves.

As for Nurse is injuring players... those people have no idea what they are talking about, they have no clue why Thibs teams got injured yet they think they do, they blame every injury on Nurse like it's fact, and none of that is true either. They just want to bitch and moan.


I think there's a middle ground between enough rope to hang oneself and so little rope you can't showcase / develop.

It is a problem that our starters are playing a lot of minutes. OG had no legs down the stretch of the game...

Either way, I'd be happy to sacrifice a few games here and there and get some of our bench guys more run. I'd rather a higher lottery pick.


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Re: Nurse Riding Starters Too Much? 

Post#54 » by Hottie McShotty » Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:36 am

Duffman100 wrote:I'm not a huge Flynn fan. But he went out there and produced in a short period and then didn't get any more burn.

We need to start letting our bench guys fail and maybe lose games. Keeping them on a short leash isn't doing anyone any good.


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Re: Nurse Riding Starters Too Much? 

Post#55 » by LoveMyRaps » Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:50 am

Guys like FVV, Siakam, & Barnes can handle it. OG, not so much. Dude looks like he's about to pass out after every game.

To be fair... our bench is garbage. Like real bad.

Yuta will be a solid addition but won't be enough. We need Boucher to wake the f*** up. Banton is solid as well. Flynn needs to be more productive in the limited time he gets (though I've liked his game past couple of games. He's making progress.)
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Re: Nurse Riding Starters Too Much? 

Post#56 » by Johnny Bball » Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:21 am

ruckus wrote:Is there a proven correlation between minutes, fatigue and injury? I mean on the surface sure, it's an easy leap to make but thats not always the case when we dig a little deeper.

I'd like to see the bench guys play more but if it isn't conducive to winning, it's not gonna happen.


The correlation was intensity and frequency of practices and that's what Thibs did, but people like to invent minutes in the game was the reason. The other big was was fatigue from travel etc. and sleep. But yes, players tend to get hurt more later in games, but that's also when the game is most intense.
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Re: Nurse Riding Starters Too Much? 

Post#57 » by WaltFrazier » Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:38 am

TheRaptor! wrote:Dragic is solid and if the goal is to win and not straight development then he needs to be played more.

AS of now our bench is kinda week, one of our current starters should go to the bench to give it a lift.


He played a solid professional game when Fred missed the pistons game. After all those NPs. Using him to give Fred a few more minutes rest each half would benefit Fred. And either Dragic or Flynn don't try to do too much, they move the ball a bit more than Fred.
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Re: Nurse Riding Starters Too Much? 

Post#58 » by johanliebert » Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:08 pm

The team has a medical staff and they clearly have no issue with it. Seems like the strategy is to give them a game off every few weeks.


This is a young team they can handle the minutes and he has two rookies in the rotation. Guys like dragon/flynn are players this board wanted shipped out just a few weeks ago.
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Re: Nurse Riding Starters Too Much? 

Post#59 » by ruckus » Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:41 pm

seanbig wrote:
ruckus wrote:Is there a proven correlation between minutes, fatigue and injury? I mean on the surface sure, it's an easy leap to make but thats not always the case when we dig a little deeper.

I'd like to see the bench guys play more but if it isn't conducive to winning, it's not gonna happen.


As per my orthopedic surgeon in medical school- yes and this is from 2000

There is no time for recovery in an nba season until the offseason

And raptors minutes aren’t Phoenix suns minutes

38 minutes is likely like playing the entire game on other teams due to how hard nurse wants players to play

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4974851/


Thanks for the link. So for that study, they included practices and live games. It wasn't that long ago that teams regularly did 2-a-day practices. That practice has pretty much stopped as far as I know. And the number of actual practices that take place during the regular season are few and far between.

Here's a link from the Raps championship season talking about it:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/nba/raptors-trying-strike-balance-practice-rest/

My logic is - if Nurse is building for the playoffs where teams regularly play their starters 40-ish minutes then they need to build that capacity. OG, Pascal and Scottie seemed to be pretty gassed by the end of the Blazers game and they made some mental mistakes as a result. Being able to continue to perform at a high level after playing 40 minutes should be part of these guys development as well.

I do agree that there needs to be a balance though. I just don't think we have enough information on our side to be able to determine what that balance is.
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Re: Nurse Riding Starters Too Much? 

Post#60 » by Appostis » Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:56 pm

Team (nurse)needs to accept this is a development year.

Watanabe , Banton, precious, Flynn all should get solid minutes. It's ok to lose games.

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