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Is Fred a true point guard?

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Is Fred a true Point guard?

Yes, he’s a legit true point guard
33
30%
No, he doesn’t know how to run an offense
78
70%
 
Total votes: 111

Kingsway_fan
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#121 » by Kingsway_fan » Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:18 pm

He is already top 3 PG in franchise history, with Lowry and Daemon Stodamire.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#122 » by Vampirate » Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:39 pm

PrinceAli wrote:I know this thread is bound to spark a civil war, but I really wanna see how many people think Fred is a true point guard


I'm gonna say this, I think he's a SG who's trying to learn how to truly be a real PG.

The transition won't be easy obviously, but if i'm not mistaken PG is the hardest position in the NBA to learn.

FVV has seemingly beat the odds to what he's become and it's possible he beats them again to become a true PG.

He's not a natural PG, but i'm not going to write him off completely on becoming a true PG in the future. It's just not going to magically happen this year.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#123 » by VanWest82 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:44 pm

Fred is 12th in APG and potential assists. If he isn't a PG then there are only like 10-15 PGs in the NBA.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#124 » by Johnny Bball » Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:50 pm

VanWest82 wrote:Fred is 12th in APG and potential assists. If he isn't a PG then there are only like 10-15 PGs in the NBA.


You would think this alone would end it but it won't. People will still try and talk about the types of assists, that he looks for his own shot (which PG doesn't these days) and other goalpost shifting ideas. The guy has always been a PG.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#125 » by VanWest82 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:59 pm

Johnny Bball wrote:
VanWest82 wrote:Fred is 12th in APG and potential assists. If he isn't a PG then there are only like 10-15 PGs in the NBA.


You would think this alone would end it but it won't. People will still try and talk about the types of assists, that he looks for his own shot (which PG doesn't these days) and other goalpost shifting ideas. The guy has always been a PG.

I don't even mind the discussions about ways he needs to improve as a play maker. Like, I wish he'd get better at reading/making the quick pocket pass instead of snaking all the time. It's the over-the-top dumb stuff (he's a SG, he's already hit his ceiling, Barnes and Banton would do better as rookie full time ball handlers) where it becomes clear that people just like to hate on the guy.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#126 » by Badonkadonk » Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:00 pm

Kingsway_fan wrote:He is already top 3 PG in franchise history, with Lowry and Daemon Stodamire.

Damon wasn't even a good PG honestly, he just benefited from obscenely high usage. He was average to below-average during his prime years in Portland. And that's just on offense, he was absolutely terrible on D, where Fred shines.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#127 » by vini_vidi_vici » Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:52 pm

Lets start with defining a "true PG".

I bet, a) theres no consensus, and b) if there was, alot of elite Gs would be bad at it.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#128 » by Courtside » Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:26 pm

vini_vidi_vici wrote:Lets start with defining a "true PG".

I bet, a) theres no consensus, and b) if there was, alot of elite Gs would be bad at it.

Or whether it even matters if he is? I mean, if we had a true C and true PF and true SF and true SG, all of whom played very traditional roles then I guess it would be pretty important that our PG is too, but none of that is the case.

We don't need Fred to be a "true PG" if we were even able to come to a consensus definition.

We DO need Fred to fill the roles needed of him when he's on the floor - and there is plenty of room for discussion there - but rhe entire premise of this thread is just to waste everyone's time arguing about a complete red herring.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#129 » by Johnny Bball » Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:21 pm

Courtside wrote:
vini_vidi_vici wrote:Lets start with defining a "true PG".

I bet, a) theres no consensus, and b) if there was, alot of elite Gs would be bad at it.

Or whether it even matters if he is? I mean, if we had a true C and true PF and true SF and true SG, all of whom played very traditional roles then I guess it would be pretty important that our PG is too, but none of that is the case.

We don't need Fred to be a "true PG" if we were even able to come to a consensus definition.

We DO need Fred to fill the roles needed of him when he's on the floor - and there is plenty of room for discussion there - but rhe entire premise of this thread is just to waste everyone's time arguing about a complete red herring.


The guy is close to the ultimate swiss army guard imo. Or maybe better stated, can play his role beside almost anyone.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#130 » by kalel123 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:39 pm

johanliebert wrote:
kalel123 wrote:He has a role on a winner but not as primary playmaker especially down the stretch. But he's willing and able to take that shot and he can defend so if possible, you still want someone like him around. Only problem IMO is his size limits the kind of players that can play beside him and still be a playmaker. I know we won with Lowry and Van Vleet playing together but ideally, you want to be able to get someone with size.

Barnes could grow into that role and he's obviously got the size, which is why he's so intriguing. But he needs couple more years to establish himself, grow more confidence, earn the trust of coaching staff and teammates. But we do definitely need someone else to trust with the ball and no one on the team is that guy and only Barnes has a chance to be one on the current roster IMO. If not, need to go get one.

Yikes and this guys been here since 2004..quite a few in this thread have.

To follow the team that long and still not understand basketball is astonishing. I’ve yet to see what this board believes is a PG either this thread is just the officiate FVV table.


What's astonishing is that you are able to jack off on your own imaginary "understanding" of the game without actually displaying an ounce of it.

Rather than make a pointless attack when someone joined the board, actually make a point about basketball. And here I thought, I wasn't really even criticizing Van Vleet, just making a point about what he can and cannot do and what we need around him because he's worth keeping in the end.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#131 » by pingpongrac » Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:31 pm

Oakvillehoops wrote:The team couldn’t score in the last 2.5 minutes of the game. If our D didn’t step up or the lead was more narrow we would have blown this game. Fred is amazing down the stretch, but in the clutch he needs to find the open man.


This is such a weird criticism. When you have a double digit lead with ~3 minutes to go, the main goal is to eat as much clock as possible. That is literally why the offence stalled for 4 or 5 possessions. It had nothing to do with FVV not finding the open man and everything to do with killing time. Regardless, Scottie and FVV both had turnovers, but we had good looks on the other possessions.

Every team in the NBA does it too. Heck, Brooklyn did it against us a few weeks ago. They had a 15-point lead with 3 minutes left and they committed 3 turnovers late in the shot clock plus ate 20 seconds off the shot clock in their other possession while we went on a 7-0 run. Then they dribbled 20 seconds off their next possession before attempting a shot and finally scoring. They ended up winning by 13. We also still ended up winning by 13.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#132 » by mdenny » Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:52 pm

pingpongrac wrote:
Oakvillehoops wrote:The team couldn’t score in the last 2.5 minutes of the game. If our D didn’t step up or the lead was more narrow we would have blown this game. Fred is amazing down the stretch, but in the clutch he needs to find the open man.


This is such a weird criticism. When you have a double digit lead with ~3 minutes to go, the main goal is to eat as much clock as possible. That is literally why the offence stalled for 4 or 5 possessions. It had nothing to do with FVV not finding the open man and everything to do with killing time. Regardless, Scottie and FVV both had turnovers, but we had good looks on the other possessions.

Every team in the NBA does it too. Heck, Brooklyn did it against us a few weeks ago. They had a 15-point lead with 3 minutes left and they committed 3 turnovers late in the shot clock plus ate 20 seconds off the shot clock in their other possession while we went on a 7-0 run. Then they dribbled 20 seconds off their next possession before attempting a shot and finally scoring. They ended up winning by 13. We also still ended up winning by 13.



The fred-hate is usually just misdirected casual basketball takes.

There's only one reason why this board has such a disproportionate amount of hate for the guy who's been our best player this season: there is a pocket of around 5 to 10 loud but wrong posters who for months, made 50 to 100 posts expressing hatred toward him PER DAY. And that just naturally gains momentum through repetition and re-enforcement until many others start seeing the game through that biased lens.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#133 » by Johnny Bball » Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:57 am

mdenny wrote:
pingpongrac wrote:
Oakvillehoops wrote:The team couldn’t score in the last 2.5 minutes of the game. If our D didn’t step up or the lead was more narrow we would have blown this game. Fred is amazing down the stretch, but in the clutch he needs to find the open man.


This is such a weird criticism. When you have a double digit lead with ~3 minutes to go, the main goal is to eat as much clock as possible. That is literally why the offence stalled for 4 or 5 possessions. It had nothing to do with FVV not finding the open man and everything to do with killing time. Regardless, Scottie and FVV both had turnovers, but we had good looks on the other possessions.

Every team in the NBA does it too. Heck, Brooklyn did it against us a few weeks ago. They had a 15-point lead with 3 minutes left and they committed 3 turnovers late in the shot clock plus ate 20 seconds off the shot clock in their other possession while we went on a 7-0 run. Then they dribbled 20 seconds off their next possession before attempting a shot and finally scoring. They ended up winning by 13. We also still ended up winning by 13.



The fred-hate is usually just misdirected casual basketball takes.

There's only one reason why this board has such a disproportionate amount of hate for the guy who's been our best player this season: there is a pocket of around 5 to 10 loud but wrong posters who for months, made 50 to 100 posts expressing hatred toward him PER DAY. And that just naturally gains momentum through repetition and re-enforcement until many others start seeing the game through that biased lens.


How can you be wrong for 5 years straight and still keep inventing new bad takes.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#134 » by Dr Positivity » Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:35 am

Is he our best player? I say yes
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#135 » by agkagk » Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:49 am

VanWest82 wrote:Fred is 12th in APG and potential assists. If he isn't a PG then there are only like 10-15 PGs in the NBA.



Toronto’s full of entitled spoiled suburbanites. They deserve better than Fred. He’s not “real” enough for them.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#136 » by Dr Positivity » Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:40 am

Kingsway_fan wrote:He is already top 3 PG in franchise history, with Lowry and Daemon Stodamire.


FVV, Siakam and OG are all second team All Raptors
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#137 » by mihaic » Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:14 am

Based on this forums takes FVV is probably a Center. He had 10 rebounds recently, clearly a center.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#138 » by yellowknifer » Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:25 am

He is yes. But he is still learning (new teammates all guys have to do this yearly) and definitely has some shoot first tendencies.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#139 » by firekil » Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:29 pm

He's a true warrior. But I think he works better as a secondary ball handler as when we had Lowry running the show.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#140 » by Kingsway_fan » Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:50 pm

Badonkadonk wrote:
Kingsway_fan wrote:He is already top 3 PG in franchise history, with Lowry and Daemon Stodamire.

Damon wasn't even a good PG honestly, he just benefited from obscenely high usage. He was average to below-average during his prime years in Portland. And that's just on offense, he was absolutely terrible on D, where Fred shines.


Yes I would put Fred at number 2, but Daemon was 20 and 9 while with Toronto, Mighty Mouse carried a team of scrubs... was Rookie of the Year, and he was exciting to watch... very similar game to Fred, not as good a rebounder or defender, but still way better than any pg in raptor history not named Kyle or Fred.

His field goal percentage similar to Fred's.

Remember him going toe to toe with Prime Jordan in year one of raptors season where raps beat a 72 win Bull's team at Roger's Centre.... He was Fred Prime.

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