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Is Fred a true point guard?

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Is Fred a true Point guard?

Yes, he’s a legit true point guard
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30%
No, he doesn’t know how to run an offense
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70%
 
Total votes: 111

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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#41 » by GreatWhiteStiff » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:47 am

He's an assist happy 2 guard averaging 7 assists per game in the raptors high powered offence!

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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#42 » by HKBOY » Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:03 am

He is a good shooter/defender/secondary playmaker but he is not a true point guard.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#43 » by Westside Gunn » Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:04 am

From a pure basketball perspective, no he is not a true PG. Maybe because he hasnt really played in that position extensively with Kyle Lowry being here. He's a good offensive PG who impacts the game in his own way.

The pure PGs of the Raptors past really are Rod Strickland, Mark Jackson, Muggsy Bogues, Jose Calderon, and the 10 day contract Rafer Alston.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#44 » by junot111 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:30 am

is Steph Curry a true point guard?
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#45 » by God Squad » Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:11 am

junot111 wrote:is Steph Curry a true point guard?

Awful, awful comparison. I'm not even going to get into why as it should be apparent.

But no, Steph is not a true point.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#46 » by And1+2 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:49 am

Indeed wrote:
Tha Cynic wrote:Look at the Raptors offense. Have you seen another team in the league struggle to get easy looks like the Raptors do?

When is FVV most successful on the court? When he's playing offball and can just come out gunning like GTJ. Essentially, both GTJ and FVV are most successful as offensive sparks than as players who play within a team offense.

This team is very difficult to watch when FVV is running the point. He has had a couple of good games where he did a good job, but his natural instincts will always bring him back to that 6th man mentality. He gives you shades of Russel Westbrook at times.


... The original plan was to play him next to a PG named Dragic, but I guess that was ended up in Tragic.


Dragic plays very similar to Fred. He's not a true PG either, and never has been.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#47 » by Kingsway_fan » Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:57 am

Westside Gunn wrote:From a pure basketball perspective, no he is not a true PG. Maybe because he hasnt really played in that position extensively with Kyle Lowry being here. He's a good offensive PG who impacts the game in his own way.

The pure PGs of the Raptors past really are Rod Strickland, Mark Jackson, Muggsy Bogues, Jose Calderon, and the 10 day contract Rafer Alston.


He s a poor man's Daemon Stodemire... he looks too often for his shot, rather than making those around him better.... he reminds me of someone playing for their next contract... nurse plays him like 40 minutes a game so he must support the strategy
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#48 » by Indeed » Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:03 pm

And1+2 wrote:
Indeed wrote:
Tha Cynic wrote:Look at the Raptors offense. Have you seen another team in the league struggle to get easy looks like the Raptors do?

When is FVV most successful on the court? When he's playing offball and can just come out gunning like GTJ. Essentially, both GTJ and FVV are most successful as offensive sparks than as players who play within a team offense.

This team is very difficult to watch when FVV is running the point. He has had a couple of good games where he did a good job, but his natural instincts will always bring him back to that 6th man mentality. He gives you shades of Russel Westbrook at times.


... The original plan was to play him next to a PG named Dragic, but I guess that was ended up in Tragic.


Dragic plays very similar to Fred. He's not a true PG either, and never has been.


Define "very similar" to VanVleet?

Perhaps we were watching different games, and including those when he was in Miami. Clearly he was very capable of being a PG in Miami, setting up teammates and running the point. He played next to Nunn who is the SG.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#49 » by Indeed » Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:05 pm

God Squad wrote:
junot111 wrote:is Steph Curry a true point guard?

Awful, awful comparison. I'm not even going to get into why as it should be apparent.

But no, Steph is not a true point.


Draymond Green was playing the point
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#50 » by Fairview4Life » Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:16 pm

Better question is if anyone should care? Do you need a "true point guard"?
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#51 » by HumbleRen » Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:21 pm

Fairview4Life wrote:Better question is if anyone should care? Do you need a "true point guard"?

No we don’t but we need a natural playmaker. It doesn’t have to be FVV but someone needs to be one on the court.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#52 » by bboyskinnylegs » Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:29 pm

Fred isn't a true PG. Though it's hard to make a case for any of Malachi, Dalano, or Scottie instead of him.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#53 » by NeoDragonKnight » Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:44 pm

Fred is a very good player, but I have always been critical of his pg play. I even said years ago he had a tendancy to turn the ball over on simple lazy passes to the wing from the top of the key after bringing the ball up, got attacked for mentioning it, and I still see him doing it. I mean its a small thing but it shouldn't be happening as often as I saw it. He also takes FOREVER to bring the ball up, literally almost every time he advances right on the 17 or 16 second mark, he needs to advance the ball much quicker, Lowry use to be bad at that too but he started to advance it faster the majority of the time. He and Delano (and a few others) have a tendancy to leave their feet to pass which leads to turnovers as well. He just isn't a greatest passer, his drives do not lead to many easy looks for his teammates and he either forces up a bad layup or dribbles back out without accomplishing anything or leaves his feet for a bad pass or gives it off to a teammate who didn't have a better look then when he drove in. I love FVV as a SG coving the opposing teams best PG/SG. But I just don't like him running the point, I expect Scottie will eventually take more of that role in the coming years though, and I will still give Fred time to improve, but it is ugly at times.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#54 » by Indeed » Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:10 pm

sidsid wrote:
goinrogue wrote:It’s so obvious that Fred isn’t a natural point guard. I don’t really understand why they’re not seeing this. We would already be way better off Letting Scottie and Delano run the offense. Sure they would make mistakes but who cares we’re not trying to win a championship this year. If Fred can’t accept being off ball again
just trade him.


This is fundamentally a Nurse problem.

The refrain here is that "Fred has to take on the responsibility" because the team is too young or not enough talent or whatever.

That's not true (the take on part). If Phil Jackson was coaching this team we'd be playing the triangle offense which doesn't put anywhere near the responsibilities on the PG that we have now. There's just a ton of ways to organize a team that doesn't rely on your shortest player having the ball in their hands all game.

Anyway, it's not likely to change this year, but we'll know next year if Nurse fundamentally doesn't understand Fred's limitations. At that point it's the decision between firing Nurse or trading Fred. And you should just trade Fred because you're going to need the cap space anyway if it comes to it.


I think Nurse is trying to build a system that doesn't require a dedicate player to play the point.

However, I would argue that it means we need more players who are capable of playing the point. Also not having a single player a the point, that may create conflict on multiple mis-matches. For example when VanVleet has the mis-match, he will probably get his, even OG may have a postup mis-match. (sounds familiar?)

I think for this year, it is more on Nurse understands how his (and his coaching staff) theory vs some that applied to a group of player that may not be perfect and involving conflicts. (*cough* Nate Bjorkgren last year with Pacers *cough*)
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#55 » by Indeed » Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:14 pm

HumbleRen wrote:
Fairview4Life wrote:Better question is if anyone should care? Do you need a "true point guard"?

No we don’t but we need a natural playmaker. It doesn’t have to be FVV but someone needs to be one on the court.


I thought Banton came in playing along side VanVleet last night worked much better, it allows VanVleet to play off ball, while Banton sets up people. I think Banton was a plus last night, although his defense wasn't that great, but still better than Trent and some what better than Barnes to become a plus.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#56 » by TeamDisgruntled » Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:19 pm

HumbleRen wrote:
Fairview4Life wrote:Better question is if anyone should care? Do you need a "true point guard"?

No we don’t but we need a natural playmaker. It doesn’t have to be FVV but someone needs to be one on the court.


I think this is the opinion that gets lost when someone raises a concern over Fred as the primary ball handler. While there are extremes on both sides I think most people just recognize that Fred has a tendency to hang onto the ball. Beyond the Birch pick and roll and some drive and kick 3s there just isn’t much playmaking/creativity there. Assists don’t always = good point guard(his assist number aren’t great for a guy playing 38 mins a game anyway). When he’s forced to go to the basket the results leave much to be desired.

The league has moved toward bigger initiators that are able to see over the defence and get that ball over the top zipping to where it needs to go. Again, it’s not Fred’s fault that he is 5 11’ with a terrible vertical, he has other strengths which make him valuable.

Fred is a lights out shooter with DEEP range, he is clutch, an incredible defender even at his size, high character with apparent leadership skills. He is fairly paid to boot. Alongside a luka/harden/LeBron-type (other players fit this mold but those are the obvious ones) he is literally the perfect fit.

With our current team needs his weaknesses are magnified. We are in this dangerous territory where the longer he plays this role the more justified he will feel in always being the raptors lead ball handler, especially
If the person he should defer to isn’t one of the leagues established studs. It’s a weird spot for fans of the team and fans of Fred to be in because you want to acknowledge the negatives/limitations you see game after game, while also trying to avoid being labled a “hater” when you are far from it.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#57 » by Johnny Bball » Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:21 pm

Lol. ESPN has him listed at SG because Lowry was here so now people think he's a shotting guard. This fanbase... The guy is middle of the pack in assist ratio for starting PGs. He's alwasy been a PG no matter if he's playing off ball.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#58 » by Johnny Bball » Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:24 pm

God Squad wrote:
junot111 wrote:is Steph Curry a true point guard?

Awful, awful comparison. I'm not even going to get into why as it should be apparent.

But no, Steph is not a true point.


That's ridiculous.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#59 » by HumbleRen » Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:40 pm

TeamDisgruntled wrote:
HumbleRen wrote:
Fairview4Life wrote:Better question is if anyone should care? Do you need a "true point guard"?

No we don’t but we need a natural playmaker. It doesn’t have to be FVV but someone needs to be one on the court.


I think this is the opinion that gets lost when someone raises a concern over Fred as the primary ball handler. While there are extremes on both sides I think most people just recognize that Fred has a tendency to hang onto the ball. Beyond the Birch pick and roll and some drive and kick 3s there just isn’t much playmaking/creativity there. Assists don’t always = good point guard(his assist number aren’t great for a guy playing 38 mins a game anyway). When he’s forced to go to the basket the results leave much to be desired.

The league has moved toward bigger initiators that are able to see over the defence and get that ball over the top zipping to where it needs to go. Again, it’s not Fred’s fault that he is 5 11’ with a terrible vertical, he has other strengths which make him valuable.

Fred is a lights out shooter with DEEP range, he is clutch, an incredible defender even at his size, high character with apparent leadership skills. He is fairly paid to boot. Alongside a luka/harden/LeBron-type (other players fit this mold but those are the obvious ones) he is literally the perfect fit.

With our current team needs his weaknesses are magnified. We are in this dangerous territory where the longer he plays this role the more justified he will feel in always being the raptors lead ball handler, especially
If the person he should defer to isn’t one of the leagues established studs. It’s a weird spot for fans of the team and fans of Fred to be in because you want to acknowledge the negatives/limitations you see game after game, while also trying to avoid being labled a “hater” when you are far from it.



Beautifully said. Unless someone emerges as the de facto playmaker, FVV will continue to be empowered to be our table setter for the foreseeable future.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#60 » by Fairview4Life » Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:59 pm

TeamDisgruntled wrote:The league has moved toward bigger initiators that are able to see over the defence and get that ball over the top zipping to where it needs to go. Again, it’s not Fred’s fault that he is 5 11’ with a terrible vertical, he has other strengths which make him valuable.


Really? I rarely see any offense being initiated by passing over the top of anyone. It's all picks and dribble penetration and making defenses move and collapse to open up other guys.
9. Similarly, IF THOU HAST SPENT the entire offseason predicting that thy team will stink, thou shalt not gloat, nor even be happy, shouldst thou turn out to be correct. Realistic analysis is fine, but be a fan first, a smug smarty-pants second.

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