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Is Fred a true point guard?

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Is Fred a true Point guard?

Yes, he’s a legit true point guard
33
30%
No, he doesn’t know how to run an offense
78
70%
 
Total votes: 111

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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#61 » by ATLTimekeeper » Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:00 pm

HumbleRen wrote:
Fairview4Life wrote:Better question is if anyone should care? Do you need a "true point guard"?

No we don’t but we need a natural playmaker. It doesn’t have to be FVV but someone needs to be one on the court.


What's a natural playmaker?

I think we need someone to get Fred more open shots, too. He's a lower usage guy that gets a lot of assists/points. Unfortunately he's being compared to Chris Paul or some unrealistic standard. What he can do is actually pretty rare.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#62 » by Chandan » Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:03 pm

if you have Fred directing traffic and rely on him to make things happen, you wont win a lot of games. But if you count on him to make shots he's a drastically different contributor.
teams are not afraid of Fred driving into the paint, the more he dribbles, the more time he just wastes on the clock.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#63 » by HumbleRen » Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:08 pm

ATLTimekeeper wrote:
HumbleRen wrote:
Fairview4Life wrote:Better question is if anyone should care? Do you need a "true point guard"?

No we don’t but we need a natural playmaker. It doesn’t have to be FVV but someone needs to be one on the court.


What's a natural playmaker?

I think we need someone to get Fred more open shots, too. He's a lower usage guy that gets a lot of assists/points. Unfortunately he's being compared to Chris Paul or some unrealistic standard. What he can do is actually pretty rare.


Someone who can make reads that others can’t. Setting up the table to put guys in their most effective spots.

Obviously we have no one as smart as Draymond on our team but something similar to that. Lowry and Gasol played that role for us but they’re gone now and we didn’t replace those roles with anyone on our team.

It’s why we’re almost dead last in team assists, even Detroit and Orlando are ahead of us in that department.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#64 » by OakleyDokely » Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:13 pm

The Fred/Banton combo has a +17.2 net rating in 107 minutes.

The Fred/Flynn combo has a +18.6 net rating in 26 minutes.

When he's paired with a natural playmaker, it really works.

Fred can be you primary ballhandler, but you get the best out of him when he playing off the ball because he's can shoot it at a good % at volume.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#65 » by ATLTimekeeper » Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:25 pm

HumbleRen wrote:
ATLTimekeeper wrote:
HumbleRen wrote:No we don’t but we need a natural playmaker. It doesn’t have to be FVV but someone needs to be one on the court.


What's a natural playmaker?

I think we need someone to get Fred more open shots, too. He's a lower usage guy that gets a lot of assists/points. Unfortunately he's being compared to Chris Paul or some unrealistic standard. What he can do is actually pretty rare.


Someone who can make reads that others can’t. Setting up the table to put guys in their most effective spots.

Obviously we have no one as smart as Draymond on our team but something similar to that. Lowry and Gasol played that role for us but they’re gone now and we didn’t replace those roles with anyone on our team.

It’s why we’re almost dead last in team assists, even Detroit and Orlando are ahead of us in that department.


I think those assist numbers will creep up now that Siakam is back, you're already seeing some evidence of that lately. You'll also notice they're putting Scottie in more of those Gasol spots on the floor because he does have that talent. One thing we don't have, compared to those Lowry/Gasol teams, is spacing. Especially with Boucher's shot disappearing. There are just too many non-shooters on the floor at all times. This means that our ballhandlers are running into walls too often, and hanging onto the ball too much.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#66 » by seanbig » Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:01 pm

This debate is like asking if Tim Teebo is a true QB
When he can’t pass

- oh but he wins.

It’s probably why he was drafted
A midget guard that can’t run an offense apart
From dribble dribble dribble…dribble dribble dribble then jack a three

I love Fred as a player he’s clutch

He has miles to go in terms of running an offense
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#67 » by Appostis » Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:03 pm

Duffman100 wrote:No. He never has been.

His ideal role is to be off ball next to a point guard with size. He’s a great shooter and defender but not a great playmaker.



This.
It's not his ideal role.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#68 » by TeamDisgruntled » Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:04 pm

Fairview4Life wrote:
TeamDisgruntled wrote:The league has moved toward bigger initiators that are able to see over the defence and get that ball over the top zipping to where it needs to go. Again, it’s not Fred’s fault that he is 5 11’ with a terrible vertical, he has other strengths which make him valuable.


Really? I rarely see any offense being initiated by passing over the top of anyone. It's all picks and dribble penetration and making defenses move and collapse to open up other guys.


Well yes, I just meant they can see over the defence and make passes that smaller players struggle to make or even see at times. It wasn’t my intention to say that they were necessarily initiating tons of offence in that manner, although I guess it came off that way. Being a small guard being defended by players that are getting bigger and longer each year is getting harder and harder.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#69 » by kj_ » Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:20 pm

“True point guard” what… the kind that ran every offensive set that was called in from the sideline and averaged double digit assists. That kind? A hard no. And that’s good because those PG’s are relics from a past NBA.

Today you need 3 players at minimum and 5 ideally that can handle the ball, create for others and score themselves. Fred is one of those, pascal is one of those, OG is becoming one as his ball movement improves, Scottie is becoming one of those, GTJ? He has the scoring and ball handling part down.

It’s an outdated question to ask if your players are defined positions from a past NBA.

Fred is a solid NBA guard.


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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#70 » by Raps in 4 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:27 pm

He can definitely play PG, but he's a better SG.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#71 » by Indeed » Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:41 pm

ATLTimekeeper wrote:
HumbleRen wrote:
ATLTimekeeper wrote:
What's a natural playmaker?

I think we need someone to get Fred more open shots, too. He's a lower usage guy that gets a lot of assists/points. Unfortunately he's being compared to Chris Paul or some unrealistic standard. What he can do is actually pretty rare.


Someone who can make reads that others can’t. Setting up the table to put guys in their most effective spots.

Obviously we have no one as smart as Draymond on our team but something similar to that. Lowry and Gasol played that role for us but they’re gone now and we didn’t replace those roles with anyone on our team.

It’s why we’re almost dead last in team assists, even Detroit and Orlando are ahead of us in that department.


I think those assist numbers will creep up now that Siakam is back, you're already seeing some evidence of that lately. You'll also notice they're putting Scottie in more of those Gasol spots on the floor because he does have that talent. One thing we don't have, compared to those Lowry/Gasol teams, is spacing. Especially with Boucher's shot disappearing. There are just too many non-shooters on the floor at all times. This means that our ballhandlers are running into walls too often, and hanging onto the ball too much.


Assists may go up, but I am not sure those are efficient shots. The way to get efficient shot is to have team doubling, where we pass around to find that open shot. Maybe better spacing with our shooting would create double team, but I am not sure our players are able to make that read to pass out, and not sure we are sharing the ball around these days.

Anyway, the expectation was never on the offensive end. Our expectation has been on the defensive end to make up the difference, yet, our defense has been so bad that has been the reason causing us games for the last 6 games.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#72 » by Harcore Fenton Mun » Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:44 pm

His looking off Barnes on every play is getting old.

He can some how make the pass on the pick and roll with Birch with no hesitation. It's frustrating.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#73 » by ATLTimekeeper » Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:57 pm

Harcore Fenton Mun wrote:His looking off Barnes on every play is getting old.

He can some how make the pass on the pick and roll with Birch with no hesitation. It's frustrating.


He passes to Scottie more than anyone else. I don't know why anyone with eyeballs keeps bringing this up.

When he plays with Fred he gets more FGA/36 than when he doesn't. His points/36 doubles. His efficiency is way better. His usage is 20 with Fred ON/15 with Fred off.

Don't read the gamethreads. It's just a bunch of dudes in arrested development.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#74 » by pingpongrac » Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:57 pm

Harcore Fenton Mun wrote:His looking off Barnes on every play is getting old.

He can some how make the pass on the pick and roll with Birch with no hesitation. It's frustrating.


Because Birch sets good screens and rolls quickly to the rim. Scottie rarely sets a proper screen (more like a little brush) and often stands in the same spot to boot.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#75 » by Raps in 4 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:03 pm

ATLTimekeeper wrote:
Harcore Fenton Mun wrote:His looking off Barnes on every play is getting old.

He can some how make the pass on the pick and roll with Birch with no hesitation. It's frustrating.


He passes to Scottie more than anyone else. I don't know why anyone with eyeballs keeps bringing this up.

When he plays with Fred he gets more FGA/36 than when he doesn't. His points/36 doubles. His efficiency is way better. His usage is 20 with Fred ON/15 with Fred off.

Don't read the gamethreads. It's just a bunch of dudes in arrested development.


Fred in general doesn't have the best vision. I think people just notice when he looks off Scottie, but he does this to everyone.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#76 » by sidsid » Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:12 pm

God Squad wrote:
junot111 wrote:is Steph Curry a true point guard?

Awful, awful comparison. I'm not even going to get into why as it should be apparent.

But no, Steph is not a true point.


This is actually a good comparison stylistically and why focusing on defending Fred as a good conventional poing guard - the role Nurse has forced him to play - is futile.

Steph doesn't read the game like CP3 did nor is his superstar impact dependent on him doing so to make his teammates better. Forget the 8 assists, he dismantled us by just getting rid of the ball when we sent 2-3 guys at him. The rest of team gets to play 4 on 3 or 2 all game when he's out there. A role player doesn't need a perfect pocket pass when he's basically on a powerplay all game.

So how does this relate to Fred? Curry uses his gravity to pull defenders *away* from the basket. If we get Curry to put the ball on the floor on a drive to the basket that is basically a win for us as we absolutely do not want him to get an open 3. For Fred, it's not that much different. Every good defense wants this to happen:

- Fred to hold the ball for extended periods of time
- funnel him to drive to the paint for low percentage decisions, in order: 1. An attempt at the rim 2. A tough pass
- to drive Fred off the 3pt line as much as possible.

We currently have Fred playing the most minutes in the league in a role that directly asks him to lean into these liabilities. Asking him to go North/South for the majority of the time he's out there. It's been proven to be a disaster in the playoffs so it's not like we're building towards something with it either.

This team can and should play more like the warriors. Asking Fred and GTJ to move east/west wing-to-wing mostly with a mix of off and on ball, but crucially, not holding it for long. Forcing defending bigs to make decisions (should I show hard, or not at all) around the break, and use our talented forwards as the fulcrum on those outcomes for tic tac toe plays.

Fred is not going to generate as many assists, because you don't get a counting stat for a defending big screwing up a rotation chasing Fred off a hard pass fake by Barnes as he pivots for an open dribble drive layup, but our offense will be much better for it.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#77 » by bape_lovers » Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:14 pm

do you want Barnes to be the pick setter or you want Barnes to bring up the ball? like People keep saying FVV looking off him? I don't understand how you come to that conclusion, we running kawhi plays for him (Post ups) to start up most plays, like what else will you run that be would be effective

Harcore Fenton Mun wrote:His looking off Barnes on every play is getting old.

He can some how make the pass on the pick and roll with Birch with no hesitation. It's frustrating.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#78 » by LBJKB24MJ23 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:36 pm

so in the end, is he a point guard? yes. yes he is, because that is the role he is trying to be good at.

is he a premier point guard? no. because of the abilities premier point guards have listed in this thread. however his defense savantness limits his short comings in his offensive game. he's a tier under the premier point guards because of this. I think I have him ranked top 10 on his best days but if he is not efficient with this shot, top 15.

also this team isn't good enough and thats why he has to shoot 16-20 shots a game. if this team with OG and SBarnes projects out, FVV should only have to shoot 10-12 shots a game because the ball should be in the other players hands more.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#79 » by links135 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:12 pm

ATLTimekeeper wrote:
Harcore Fenton Mun wrote:His looking off Barnes on every play is getting old.

He can some how make the pass on the pick and roll with Birch with no hesitation. It's frustrating.


He passes to Scottie more than anyone else. I don't know why anyone with eyeballs keeps bringing this up.

When he plays with Fred he gets more FGA/36 than when he doesn't. His points/36 doubles. His efficiency is way better. His usage is 20 with Fred ON/15 with Fred off.

Don't read the gamethreads. It's just a bunch of dudes in arrested development.


Ughh, it's such a small sample size of 6 minutes a game compared to 30. Which also includes the game FVV missed adding to that 6 per game. Although Barnes is shooting much worse in those minutes.

I think the bigger issue is, since Siakam has come back, FVV is shooting 27% while Siakam and Barnes are on the court, only 22% from 3.

He's at least shooting 43% with them both off.

Oh yeah, we're also giving up about 13 corner 3's a game, #1 in the league the last 8, and they're making 40%.

We're also giving up 70% at the rim the last 8, so we aren't stopping them scoring at the rim OR the 3.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#80 » by VanWest82 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:15 pm

It's hard to say but Fred is currently T5 in RAPTOR WAR. Not for just PGs, but the entire NBA. He's been pretty much the main reason we win any games at all.

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