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Is Fred a true point guard?

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Is Fred a true Point guard?

Yes, he’s a legit true point guard
33
30%
No, he doesn’t know how to run an offense
78
70%
 
Total votes: 111

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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#81 » by Dr Positivity » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:28 pm

Yes but no more comparing this guy to Lowry
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#82 » by Jadoogar » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:31 pm

This is meaningless. Is Curry a true point guard? is James Harden? It really doesn't matter. We need to move the ball better as a team, FVV provides scoring and shot creation that this team desperately needs.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#83 » by goinrogue » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:52 pm

I think most people agree the solution here is to either let Scottie or Delano be the primary ball handlers from now on with Fred as an off ball guard. Right now it’s just Fred dribbling the air out of the basketball leading to an ugly shot at the end of the shot clock. It’s just not working. Nick isn’t an idiot so I wonder if he knows this and just doesn’t want to have that conversation with Fred.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#84 » by Hero » Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:01 pm

Well there's a difference between a PG coming off the bench playing 15 mins at PG and 10 mins at SG...vs having him as the primary PG.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#85 » by VanWest82 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:10 pm

PrinceAli wrote:I know this thread is bound to spark a civil war, but I really wanna see how many people think Fred is a true point guard


The issue isn't whether or not this is a legitimate discussion. It's that this thread was started the night after Fred shut down the presumptive MVP. It was one of the few bright spots in that beating but why would we talk about it when we can deflect to Fred's inconsistent play making. This is why these issues sometimes get contentious.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#86 » by VanWest82 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:26 pm

I'd also add that outside of one game vs. Detroit who might be the worst team in the league, we've shown almost zero ability to play without Fred in a lead guard role as illustrated in our lackluster 210 mins without him where we're getting killed -10 NRTG. The evidence overwhelmingly suggests that if we take the ball out of his hands we'll lose much worse than we have been.

Edit: I like the idea of slowly upping Siakam's play making responsibilities as he gets more comfortable though I suspect we'll still perform better when Fred has the ball.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#87 » by Indeed » Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:32 pm

goinrogue wrote:I think most people agree the solution here is to either let Scottie or Delano be the primary ball handlers from now on with Fred as an off ball guard. Right now it’s just Fred dribbling the air out of the basketball leading to an ugly shot at the end of the shot clock. It’s just not working. Nick isn’t an idiot so I wonder if he knows this and just doesn’t want to have that conversation with Fred.


I don't like the word "primary ball handler", as playing the point doesn't mean he has to handle the ball. The point is to calling plays and finding the right matchup.

I agree that VanVleet should be playing off the ball, rather than him not able to find matchup and over dribbling.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#88 » by TorontoRapsFan » Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:07 pm

He can run an offense and he can play the pg position fairly well. But no, he is not a true point guard. Although most point guards now don't qualify as floor general points. Big difference between what FVV struggles with and other point guards is his passing. The problem with his passing seems to be both skill and vision. This doesn't mean he can't make difficult passes and find teammates, it's just a lot of work for him. And he telegraphs what he wants to do a lot. He's Ben Gordan with great D. That should still get him a few all star games eventually.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#89 » by bluerap23 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:19 pm

What is a true point guard? This is such an old school mentality. The only pure old school point guard in the NBA today is Chris Paul. Luka is the next closest. The team Masai and co are attempting to build now is one where all players on the court create, etc. That is the vision with Scottie and Banton.

Fred is every bit as much of a PG as any other player you'd consider. He is undersized and lacks elite athleticism. Those are his offensive limitations in creating offence. But it has zero to do with mentality. It is his mental fortitude that has him playing at a near all-star level.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#90 » by _MidNight_ » Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:20 pm

VanWest82 wrote:I'd also add that outside of one game vs. Detroit who might be the worst team in the league, we've shown almost zero ability to play without Fred in a lead guard role as illustrated in our lackluster 210 mins without him where we're getting killed -10 NRTG. The evidence overwhelmingly suggests that if we take the ball out of his hands we'll lose much worse than we have been.

Edit: I like the idea of slowly upping Siakam's play making responsibilities as he gets more comfortable though I suspect we'll still perform better when Fred has the ball.



I don't think anything is advocating to play without Fred all together, everyone knows we're dead in the water without him.

We need a better playmaking option, Fred is a completely different player off ball.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#91 » by Los_29 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:24 pm

Let's bring Mark Jackson and Jose Calderon out of retirement so we can have a "true" point guard.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#92 » by bballsparkin » Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:36 pm

Fred defends the PG very well. He's shown flashes as a facilitator but he's no Lowry. Overall FVV seems like pretty good value for his contract. He's doing what he was paid to do so no complaints from me. If he can expand his game as a facilitator that's gravy.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#93 » by OakleyDokely » Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:38 pm

Brad Stevens summarized the current NBA very well with this quote

"I don’t have the five positions anymore," Brad Stevens said, "It may be as simple as three positions now, where you’re either a ball-handler, a wing or a big
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#94 » by TRik » Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:40 pm

He’s a ball handler/ball hog but not a true ‘facilitator’.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#95 » by Kingsway_fan » Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:43 pm

He's a combo guard who plays good defense but tends to look most often for his shot rather than setting up others via his actions for good shots to make them the best they can be... and to optimize the talent on the team... so kind of the anti Steve Nash.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#96 » by VanWest82 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:44 pm

_MidNight_ wrote:
VanWest82 wrote:I'd also add that outside of one game vs. Detroit who might be the worst team in the league, we've shown almost zero ability to play without Fred in a lead guard role as illustrated in our lackluster 210 mins without him where we're getting killed -10 NRTG. The evidence overwhelmingly suggests that if we take the ball out of his hands we'll lose much worse than we have been.

Edit: I like the idea of slowly upping Siakam's play making responsibilities as he gets more comfortable though I suspect we'll still perform better when Fred has the ball.



I don't think anything is advocating to play without Fred all together, everyone knows we're dead in the water without him.

We need a better playmaking option, Fred is a completely different player off ball.


We need that to improve our ceiling as a team, yes. But today, we don't have other options that are anywhere near as good. We'd completely tank the team moving Fred off ball to the point where it'd become a wasted development year (though we'd get a high lotto pick).
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#97 » by TRik » Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:44 pm

TBH - in terms of negatively affecting the flow of the offence, Fred doesn’t bother me as much as GTJ. Like you can tell there’s a team approach to ‘we’re rolling with Fred’, but GTJ just deflates any feeling of team basketball when he’s on the court. Like bro, we get it, you think you’re smooth, but we’re not winning with you as our Jordan so recognise the pecking order and pass.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#98 » by WaltFrazier » Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:55 am

Fred is a competent point guard, a much better shooting guard albeit small for a 2. The reason he's not a better PG is he doesn't have that special vision for seeing open men and passing to them. Chris Paul has it, Kyle developed it. Lamelo. Some non-guards have it too. They make other players better by getting them shots they wouldn't otherwise get.

Scottie is the only Raptor with that special, can't-be-taught, vision as a passer. But he's not the ballhandler to be a PG, not yet.

So Fred has not the vision to be a great old-school PG, and is not the explosive scoring type new school PG like Trae, Murray, Morant and others.

He's a great defender, very good shooter, but his lack of being either of the two kinds of point guards is limiting for our offense.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#99 » by Gold Dragon » Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:10 am

WaltFrazier wrote:Fred is a competent point guard, a much better shooting guard albeit small for a 2. The reason he's not a better PG is he doesn't have that special vision for seeing open men and passing to them. Chris Paul has it, Kyle developed it. Lamelo. Some non-guards have it too. They make other players better by getting them shots they wouldn't otherwise get.

Scottie is the only Raptor with that special, can't-be-taught, vision as a passer. But he's not the ballhandler to be a PG, not yet.

So Fred has not the vision to be a great old-school PG, and is not the explosive scoring type new school PG like Trae, Murray, Morant and others.

He's a great defender, very good shooter, but his lack of being either of the two kinds of point guards is limiting for our offense.


This is fair. I would add that he is improving in his PG skills. He has a history of deferring to someone with better PG skills and loves playing off ball so he will have no problems doing that when we have someone who has better PG skills than him.

At the moment that player doesn’t exist and force feeding it to Barnes or Banton is not the answer. If you force Barnes to be the primary ball handler when he is clearly not ready, not only is that not good for Barnes development, it is not good for all the other players we are trying to develop.

Barnes is not winning anything by himself. He needs supportive players around him and our team is developing more than just one player. They need a functional point guard for that to happen and Fred is the best we have. I’d say he is a great PG given his physical limitations of size, speed and athleticism.
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Re: Is Fred a true point guard? 

Post#100 » by Indeed » Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:18 am

WaltFrazier wrote:Fred is a competent point guard, a much better shooting guard albeit small for a 2. The reason he's not a better PG is he doesn't have that special vision for seeing open men and passing to them. Chris Paul has it, Kyle developed it. Lamelo. Some non-guards have it too. They make other players better by getting them shots they wouldn't otherwise get.

Scottie and Banton are the only Raptor with that special, can't-be-taught, vision as a passer. But he's not the ballhandler and shooter to be a PG, not yet.

So Fred has not the vision to be a great old-school PG, and is not the explosive scoring type new school PG like Trae, Murray, Morant and others.

He's a great defender, very good shooter, but his lack of being either of the two kinds of point guards is limiting for our offense.


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