RealGM

I know this thread is bound to spark a civil war, but I really wanna see how many people think Fred is a true point guard

Just try not to call each other idiots, morons, clowns or goofs. This can be discussed in a civil fashion.

To answer the question, is he a true point guard? He's certainly had games this season where he's looked like one. But for the most part he's played like a two guard. It may take some time for him to fully adjust his mind set, from that of a shooter to that of a facilitator.

He's a true ball hog.

Point guards should create easier shots for their teammates. This guy is an undersized shooting guard. He'd fit better along a dominant wing or centre.

No he’s not a true point guard but he’s the best we have right now

Scottie could become one but he’s gotta get a tighter handle and he can’t guard 1-5s as advertised maybe just 3 and 4’s- and that’s ok

Borderline combo guard, more a SG, said it many times.
He is learning to make that passing decision, and kinda improving his ability to control tempo, but I don't think he sees matchup. Banton would be more a PG.

Reeko wrote:Just try not to call each other idiots, morons, clowns or goofs. This can be discussed in a civil fashion.

Pro and anti FVV going at it.

No. He never has been.

His ideal role is to be off ball next to a point guard with size. He’s a great shooter and defender but not a great playmaker.

Look at the Raptors offense. Have you seen another team in the league struggle to get easy looks like the Raptors do?

When is FVV most successful on the court? When he's playing offball and can just come out gunning like GTJ. Essentially, both GTJ and FVV are most successful as offensive sparks than as players who play within a team offense.

This team is very difficult to watch when FVV is running the point. He has had a couple of good games where he did a good job, but his natural instincts will always bring him back to that 6th man mentality. He gives you shades of Russel Westbrook at times.

Nope. Doesn't help that his bet on yourself trying to prove a point attitude makes him undisciplined at times.

Tha Cynic wrote:Look at the Raptors offense. Have you seen another team in the league struggle to get easy looks like the Raptors do?

When is FVV most successful on the court? When he's playing offball and can just come out gunning like GTJ. Essentially, both GTJ and FVV are most successful as offensive sparks than as players who play within a team offense.

This team is very difficult to watch when FVV is running the point. He has had a couple of good games where he did a good job, but his natural instincts will always bring him back to that 6th man mentality. He gives you shades of Russel Westbrook at times.

... The original plan was to play him next to a PG named Dragic, but I guess that was ended up in Tragic.

It's an irrelevant distinction. "True" PGs is a misnomer because being a scoring threat is how you generate advantage that becomes easy scoring opportunities for teammates.

Dame/Steph/Luka/Trae/Ja/Shai etc are all elite scoring the ball - the focus they demand is what makes it easy for them to exploit the defense to create opportunities for teammates.

FVV, like SIakam, are both miscast a slot above where they should be as scoring options. They would both look so much better with a legit #1. Fact is we don't have one and we're forced to make do. Sometimes they look good and sometimes they look bad. That's why they aren't elite players and why we're a mid-level team.

Until Barnes is ready (and he's absolutely not ready) to take on more primary usage, FVV has to shoulder more burden than he's capable of. That doesn't take away from all the great things he does for this team. He's doing an admirable job given the tough situation he's in.

unfortunately for him, his stature holds him back from being really good. I mean for being 6'0", he's great. great defender. but he lacks playmaking flair and creativity. yes. he can pass out to the wing when he drives or drops a pocket pass in the PnR but outside of that but so can all starting point guards.

offense is stagnant because of 1) personnel 2) point guard play.

does FVV truly make players around him better? i'm gonna go with a no.

he doesn't command a double team so its hard for FVV to easily get passes to open guys. FVV is usually a guy you pass to when you get double teamed.

It's not all on Fred but great point guards makes others around them better. Siakam isn't either better either. I.e. making players around them better. they are just role fillers at the moment. team will be mediocre with them at the helm.

I think the team's future is bright but I don't think that future has FVV and Siakam playing in a Raptors uniform or unless their mentality changes when the young guys with greater ceilings and game come over the top and demand that FVV give them the ball. FVV didn't like Kawhi doing that - and now that he's the lead guy, I surely don't see that ever happening.

I voted no because its obvious FVV doesn't have qualities of a true point guard. He is not good at getting to the rim and pressuring the defense. Even in the cases when he's able to get into the paint, he isn't a good kick out passer. His first instinct is to try to finish at the rim over 7 foot shot blockers. He is also a extremely conservative passer. He's very risk adverse and doesn't like to make touch interior passes or passes to post up players. He has no natural instinct to thread the needle off the pick and roll. He consistently misses the roll man. Finally, and most importantly, he isn't aware of when a teammate is hot or has not been involved in the offense for a while. A true point guard is able to make sure everyone is involved in the offense and everyone gets adequate touches. FVV has never demonstrated an ability to do that.

Duffman100 wrote:No. He never has been.

His ideal role is to be off ball next to a point guard with size. He’s a great shooter and defender but not a great playmaker.

Absolutely correct. I even said this a couple of times last year, but his defenders did not want to hear about it. I think he is a decent defender, but not a great one though. Hopefully, he is packaged in a trade before the deadline, since he at times is hindering the development of Scottie Barnes. We thank FVV and Pascal for the 2019 memories, but it is time we do a true rebuild, and move on from these guys.

It depends on what your standards are for a PG. If you expect every PG in the league to be great playmakers like CP3/Luka/Harden/Trae/Ball/Lillard/Lowry, he's not a true PG. If your expectations are more realistic and you expect him to run an offence like the other 75% of the PGs in the league (Ja, Fox, Holiday, Conley, Dinwiddie, Brogdon, Garland, Anthony, Schroder, Graham, etc.) then he's a perfectly fine PG. He's probably better suited to be a combo guard alongside another playmaking guard, but FVV is nowhere near one of the worst PGs in the league when it comes to running an offence.

It might be a bit of a cop-out, but maybe add a poll option for "combo guard" or something along those lines?

AbC? wrote:It's an irrelevant distinction. "True" PGs is a misnomer because being a scoring threat how you generate advantage that becomes easy scoring opportunities for teammates.

Dame/Steph/Luka/Trae/Ja/Shai etc are all elite scoring the ball - the focus they demand is what makes it easy for them to exploit the defense.

FVV, like SIakam, are both miscast a slot above where they should be as scoring options. They would both look so much better with a legit #1. Fact is we don't have one and we're forced to make do. Sometimes they look good and sometimes they look bad. That's why they aren't elite players and why we're a mid-level team.

Until Barnes is ready (and he's absolutely not ready) to take on more primary usage, FVV has to shoulder more burden than he's capable of. He's doing an admirable job given the tough situation he's in.

Exactly, I always laugh when I hear that FVV isn't a true point guard as if there are tons of true point guards floating around the league these days. Like you said, our biggest problem is that our guys are asked to do too much. They need to be slotted down in the pecking order. This team is actually a talented team but we are missing that true #1 scorer. Once we get one then Pascal can be slotted as our #2, FVV our #3, OG our #4 etc.

AbC? wrote:It's an irrelevant distinction. "True" PGs is a misnomer because being a scoring threat is how you generate advantage that becomes easy scoring opportunities for teammates.

Dame/Steph/Luka/Trae/Ja/Shai etc are all elite scoring the ball - the focus they demand is what makes it easy for them to exploit the defense to create opportunities for teammates.

FVV, like SIakam, are both miscast a slot above where they should be as scoring options. They would both look so much better with a legit #1. Fact is we don't have one and we're forced to make do. Sometimes they look good and sometimes they look bad. That's why they aren't elite players and why we're a mid-level team.

Until Barnes is ready (and he's absolutely not ready) to take on more primary usage, FVV has to shoulder more burden than he's capable of. That doesn't take away from all the great things he does for this team. He's doing an admirable job given the tough situation he's in.

FVV would be a great SG next to them. he would also defend the better guard. take out the PG responsibilities from FVV and you would have a great backcourt.

AbC? wrote:It's an irrelevant distinction. "True" PGs is a misnomer because being a scoring threat is how you generate advantage that becomes easy scoring opportunities for teammates.

Dame/Steph/Luka/Trae/Ja/Shai etc are all elite scoring the ball - the focus they demand is what makes it easy for them to exploit the defense to create opportunities for teammates.

FVV, like SIakam, are both miscast a slot above where they should be as scoring options. They would both look so much better with a legit #1. Fact is we don't have one and we're forced to make do. Sometimes they look good and sometimes they look bad. That's why they aren't elite players and why we're a mid-level team.

Until Barnes is ready (and he's absolutely not ready) to take on more primary usage, FVV has to shoulder more burden than he's capable of. That doesn't take away from all the great things he does for this team. He's doing an admirable job given the tough situation he's in.

This is a hater thread, your well reasoned post has no place.

One of the many painful things about this forum is the how many ppl define "point guard" and, related, their misunderstanding of how advantage is created.

He’s a SG being forced to play PG and run the offence with lacklustre playmaking abilities.

Nurse seriously needs to try:
Barnes/FVV/OG/Siakam/Birch

With Trent being our 6th man