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Our Defense Has Fallen Off a Cliff

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Re: Our Defense Has Fallen Off a Cliff 

Post#61 » by Yeezus_ » Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:29 am

Seems like they are playing the long game with the defensive schemes. Yes, it's hard to learn but it's the same schemes that won a title. These young players need to learn it because it's proven effective. It takes time though and clearly the coaches and management will sacrifice some short term struggles for future long term gains.
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Re: Our Defense Has Fallen Off a Cliff 

Post#62 » by seanbig » Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:04 am

DelAbbot wrote:
HumbleRen wrote:
Read on Twitter


what's the joke/punchline?


Suspect it’s the fact that it’s the same except there are a lot of missing pieces ie lots of holes

Looks the same apart from all the holes making our defense like close to the bottom of the well

Our defense is held by a thin red string or shoelace - and one false move and it’s another corner 3
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Re: Our Defense Has Fallen Off a Cliff 

Post#63 » by Indeed » Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:44 pm

Yeezus_ wrote:Seems like they are playing the long game with the defensive schemes. Yes, it's hard to learn but it's the same schemes that won a title. These young players need to learn it because it's proven effective. It takes time though and clearly the coaches and management will sacrifice some short term struggles for future long term gains.


I am not sure it is the same schemes that won a title.

The one with Gasol was a drop coverage with guards aggressively recover against screens and forcing them mid-range - weak against PnR elite handler with mid-range shooters

The current one is to switch and aggressively disrupt ball handlers, we force them pass out of the paint - weak against elite passers with 3 point shooters
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Re: Our Defense Has Fallen Off a Cliff 

Post#64 » by TeamDisgruntled » Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:12 pm

I’m not going to pretend like I understand the different schemes and what we are trying to accomplish on defence at all times on the court. However I will point out what I see happen very often as I watch this team play defence. Seen it last season and I’m seeing it again this year.

*hypothetical situation* Aaron Gordon catches the ball 4 feet inside the 3 point line with his back to a ready OG. Fred is covering the man who just made the entry pass, say Will Barton. Fred comes down to double Gordon as he Begins his move, a player who doesn’t deserve the double to begin with, especially against a defender like OG. Barton creates a bit more space from Fredby stepping out slightly, ball is swung to Barton, defence scrambles, swing swing, open 3.

I feel like I have watched this story over and over and over again. I understand it, Fred has great hands and sometimes forces a turnover or some clock eating smothering of the ball handler, but as we get burned time after time I have to wonder if it’s worth it.

When it works, it can REALLY work. Case in point Sabonis earlier in the year. It’s more when we do it to players that have no business receiving that type of attention that really grinds my gears. I’m aware it happens less often to less deserving players but I feel it should almost never happen. Stop doubling guys who haven’t earned that respect. Average offensive players 1v1 vs our guys isn’t an advantage for the offence, it’s an advantage for us.
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Re: Our Defense Has Fallen Off a Cliff 

Post#65 » by Yeezus_ » Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:48 pm

Indeed wrote:
Yeezus_ wrote:Seems like they are playing the long game with the defensive schemes. Yes, it's hard to learn but it's the same schemes that won a title. These young players need to learn it because it's proven effective. It takes time though and clearly the coaches and management will sacrifice some short term struggles for future long term gains.


I am not sure it is the same schemes that won a title.

The one with Gasol was a drop coverage with guards aggressively recover against screens and forcing them mid-range - weak against PnR elite handler with mid-range shooters

The current one is to switch and aggressively disrupt ball handlers, we force them pass out of the paint - weak against elite passers with 3 point shooters

I think what was special about Gasol is he was able to drop and also hedge on the PNR so they were able to keep things unpredictable. You're right that it's not 100% the same but it's still similar from what I am watching. We did switch a lot in that 2019 season, just not with the Center. But I do think my point still stands, the Raptors can do things that are less "difficult" but its a developing season, and they seem to be okay with some struggles. Atleast thats what I get from the on court product.
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Re: Our Defense Has Fallen Off a Cliff 

Post#66 » by OakleyDokely » Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:51 pm

Raps are playing a hyper aggressive scheme with very young players. There are going to be a lot of mistakes, which should be expected considering this is a developmental year. But the potential is there to be very good eventually.
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Re: Our Defense Has Fallen Off a Cliff 

Post#67 » by pingpongrac » Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:58 pm

TeamDisgruntled wrote:I’m not going to pretend like I understand the different schemes and what we are trying to accomplish on defence at all times on the court. However I will point out what I see happen very often as I watch this team play defence. Seen it last season and I’m seeing it again this year.

*hypothetical situation* Aaron Gordon catches the ball 4 feet inside the 3 point line with his back to a ready OG. Fred is covering the man who just made the entry pass, say Will Barton. Fred comes down to double Gordon as he Begins his move, a player who doesn’t deserve the double to begin with, especially against a defender like OG. Barton creates a bit more space from Fredby stepping out slightly, ball is swung to Barton, defence scrambles, swing swing, open 3.

I feel like I have watched this story over and over and over again. I understand it, Fred has great hands and sometimes forces a turnover or some clock eating smothering of the ball handler, but as we get burned time after time I have to wonder if it’s worth it.

When it works, it can REALLY work. Case in point Sabonis earlier in the year. It’s more when we do it to players that have no business receiving that type of attention that really grinds my gears. I’m aware it happens less often to less deserving players but I feel it should almost never happen. Stop doubling guys who haven’t earned that respect. Average offensive players 1v1 vs our guys isn’t an advantage for the offence, it’s an advantage for us.


I get the point you're trying to make, but I feel like it is pretty misdirected. We rarely get burned due to FVV unnecessarily doubling. More good than bad comes from FVV doubling players and digging in defensively. That is waaaay down on the list of concerns when it comes to our defence.

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Re: Our Defense Has Fallen Off a Cliff 

Post#68 » by Jadoogar » Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:28 pm

I think the style of defense we're playing is just unsustainable. Going for steals means more gambles and thus players out of position. Steals also generally means more fouls. All of this is compounded by our lack of rim protection.

So players are gambling and over helping leading to more threes. When to manage to run them of the line, we have no one to really protect against layups.

This sort of defense only works whenever everyone is on the same page for every possession. We have so many young players and integrating Siakam, we're bound to have miscommunication. You also need a special defensive player to anchor it, like Draymond Green. We don't have anyone like that.
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Re: Our Defense Has Fallen Off a Cliff 

Post#69 » by TeamDisgruntled » Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:03 pm

pingpongrac wrote:
TeamDisgruntled wrote:I’m not going to pretend like I understand the different schemes and what we are trying to accomplish on defence at all times on the court. However I will point out what I see happen very often as I watch this team play defence. Seen it last season and I’m seeing it again this year.

*hypothetical situation* Aaron Gordon catches the ball 4 feet inside the 3 point line with his back to a ready OG. Fred is covering the man who just made the entry pass, say Will Barton. Fred comes down to double Gordon as he Begins his move, a player who doesn’t deserve the double to begin with, especially against a defender like OG. Barton creates a bit more space from Fredby stepping out slightly, ball is swung to Barton, defence scrambles, swing swing, open 3.

I feel like I have watched this story over and over and over again. I understand it, Fred has great hands and sometimes forces a turnover or some clock eating smothering of the ball handler, but as we get burned time after time I have to wonder if it’s worth it.

When it works, it can REALLY work. Case in point Sabonis earlier in the year. It’s more when we do it to players that have no business receiving that type of attention that really grinds my gears. I’m aware it happens less often to less deserving players but I feel it should almost never happen. Stop doubling guys who haven’t earned that respect. Average offensive players 1v1 vs our guys isn’t an advantage for the offence, it’s an advantage for us.


I get the point you're trying to make, but I feel like it is pretty misdirected. We rarely get burned due to FVV unnecessarily doubling. More good than bad comes from FVV doubling players and digging in defensively. That is waaaay down on the list of concerns when it comes to our defence.

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You’ve misunderstood. It isn’t Fred, it’s everyone. Fred is just the person in the hypothetical scenario. We double the ball in non threatening situations a lot. I’m not saying don’t do it, but we should be more selective.
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Re: Our Defense Has Fallen Off a Cliff 

Post#70 » by TeamDisgruntled » Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:14 pm

Jadoogar wrote:I think the style of defense we're playing is just unsustainable. Going for steals means more gambles and thus players out of position. Steals also generally means more fouls. All of this is compounded by our lack of rim protection.

So players are gambling and over helping leading to more threes. When to manage to run them of the line, we have no one to really protect against layups.

This sort of defense only works whenever everyone is on the same page for every possession. We have so many young players and integrating Siakam, we're bound to have miscommunication. You also need a special defensive player to anchor it, like Draymond Green. We don't have anyone like that.


This is why we look decent with precious on defence, he defends the rim fairly well but his offence thus far has been awful. He is Biyombo reincarnated, changes the game defensively but 4 vs 5 on offence.
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Re: Our Defense Has Fallen Off a Cliff 

Post#71 » by Kingsway_fan » Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:21 pm

two of our best defenders OG and Precious have missed games during this stretch .. sample size too small to draw major conclusions just yet ...
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Re: Our Defense Has Fallen Off a Cliff 

Post#72 » by ItsDanger » Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:23 pm

If one guy is late on rotating, the system breaks down and allows a high % shot. It works best when the players have played together a long time. Not a big fan of this style unless its against a prime offensive weapon that demands a double. I'd like Nurse to let the star player get his points and control everyone else more often.
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Re: Our Defense Has Fallen Off a Cliff 

Post#73 » by nikster » Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:02 pm

Jadoogar wrote:I think the style of defense we're playing is just unsustainable. Going for steals means more gambles and thus players out of position. Steals also generally means more fouls. All of this is compounded by our lack of rim protection.

So players are gambling and over helping leading to more threes. When to manage to run them of the line, we have no one to really protect against layups.

This sort of defense only works whenever everyone is on the same page for every possession. We have so many young players and integrating Siakam, we're bound to have miscommunication. You also need a special defensive player to anchor it, like Draymond Green. We don't have anyone like that.

Thats exactly the point tho. We are young and inexperienced. We're developing in a season that doesnt really matter. Might as well get the mistakes out of the way now while they learn the system.
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Re: Our Defense Has Fallen Off a Cliff 

Post#74 » by Jadoogar » Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:25 pm

nikster wrote:
Jadoogar wrote:I think the style of defense we're playing is just unsustainable. Going for steals means more gambles and thus players out of position. Steals also generally means more fouls. All of this is compounded by our lack of rim protection.

So players are gambling and over helping leading to more threes. When to manage to run them of the line, we have no one to really protect against layups.

This sort of defense only works whenever everyone is on the same page for every possession. We have so many young players and integrating Siakam, we're bound to have miscommunication. You also need a special defensive player to anchor it, like Draymond Green. We don't have anyone like that.

Thats exactly the point tho. We are young and inexperienced. We're developing in a season that doesnt really matter. Might as well get the mistakes out of the way now while they learn the system.


i think the system is jsut too complex to work for our players. I know it's early but i don't think any of our players develop into Draymond or Giannis. To run a defense like this at a top 10 level, we need a really special defender.

That said, i think this is a lost season essentially so i'm all for experimenting. Continue the switchy lineup, try Barnes at Center, try no guards. Maybe something sticks.
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Re: Our Defense Has Fallen Off a Cliff 

Post#75 » by johanliebert » Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:27 pm

nikster wrote:
Jadoogar wrote:I think the style of defense we're playing is just unsustainable. Going for steals means more gambles and thus players out of position. Steals also generally means more fouls. All of this is compounded by our lack of rim protection.

So players are gambling and over helping leading to more threes. When to manage to run them of the line, we have no one to really protect against layups.

This sort of defense only works whenever everyone is on the same page for every possession. We have so many young players and integrating Siakam, we're bound to have miscommunication. You also need a special defensive player to anchor it, like Draymond Green. We don't have anyone like that.

Thats exactly the point tho. We are young and inexperienced. We're developing in a season that doesnt really matter. Might as well get the mistakes out of the way now while they learn the system.

Youth is an excuse the defence was fine with both achiuwa and Barnes starting early on in the season. A certain player came back to the team and he refuses to follow assignments or play with effort.
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Re: Our Defense Has Fallen Off a Cliff 

Post#76 » by johanliebert » Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:29 pm

Jadoogar wrote:
nikster wrote:
Jadoogar wrote:I think the style of defense we're playing is just unsustainable. Going for steals means more gambles and thus players out of position. Steals also generally means more fouls. All of this is compounded by our lack of rim protection.

So players are gambling and over helping leading to more threes. When to manage to run them of the line, we have no one to really protect against layups.

This sort of defense only works whenever everyone is on the same page for every possession. We have so many young players and integrating Siakam, we're bound to have miscommunication. You also need a special defensive player to anchor it, like Draymond Green. We don't have anyone like that.

Thats exactly the point tho. We are young and inexperienced. We're developing in a season that doesnt really matter. Might as well get the mistakes out of the way now while they learn the system.


i think the system is jsut too complex to work for our players. I know it's early but i don't think any of our players develop into Draymond or Giannis. To run a defense like this at a top 10 level, we need a really special defender.

That said, i think this is a lost season essentially so i'm all for experimenting. Continue the switchy lineup, try Barnes at Center, try no guards. Maybe something sticks.

Defence is 90% effort. It’s their jobs to learn their schemes over the summer.
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Re: Our Defense Has Fallen Off a Cliff 

Post#77 » by Jadoogar » Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:33 pm

johanliebert wrote:
Jadoogar wrote:
nikster wrote:Thats exactly the point tho. We are young and inexperienced. We're developing in a season that doesnt really matter. Might as well get the mistakes out of the way now while they learn the system.


i think the system is jsut too complex to work for our players. I know it's early but i don't think any of our players develop into Draymond or Giannis. To run a defense like this at a top 10 level, we need a really special defender.

That said, i think this is a lost season essentially so i'm all for experimenting. Continue the switchy lineup, try Barnes at Center, try no guards. Maybe something sticks.

Defence is 90% effort. It’s their jobs to learn their schemes over the summer.


Yes this is a great lesson for your nephew's U10 varsity team but in the NBA, defense is a lot more than just "gotta try harder"
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Re: Our Defense Has Fallen Off a Cliff 

Post#78 » by Indeed » Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:43 pm

Jadoogar wrote:
johanliebert wrote:
Jadoogar wrote:
i think the system is jsut too complex to work for our players. I know it's early but i don't think any of our players develop into Draymond or Giannis. To run a defense like this at a top 10 level, we need a really special defender.

That said, i think this is a lost season essentially so i'm all for experimenting. Continue the switchy lineup, try Barnes at Center, try no guards. Maybe something sticks.

Defence is 90% effort. It’s their jobs to learn their schemes over the summer.


Yes this is a great lesson for your nephew's U10 varsity team but in the NBA, defense is a lot more than just "gotta try harder"


Barnes and Banton were playing well in their first 10 games, so I don't buy "young and inexperienced". I don't see how they suddenly failed to execute the same system after the first 10 games. Same thing as OG, no way he suddenly became one of the worst DRtg player on the team.
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Re: Our Defense Has Fallen Off a Cliff 

Post#79 » by Jadoogar » Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:31 pm

Indeed wrote:
Jadoogar wrote:
johanliebert wrote:Defence is 90% effort. It’s their jobs to learn their schemes over the summer.


Yes this is a great lesson for your nephew's U10 varsity team but in the NBA, defense is a lot more than just "gotta try harder"


Barnes and Banton were playing well in their first 10 games, so I don't buy "young and inexperienced". I don't see how they suddenly failed to execute the same system after the first 10 games. Same thing as OG, no way he suddenly became one of the worst DRtg player on the team.


This system is more prone to fatigue. Also teams go through hot stretches or other teams figure this system out.
Some of it is Siakam (he's been bad on defense), some of it injuries to the centers, some of it is Scottie (rookies tend to be bad at defense, especially team defense).
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Re: Our Defense Has Fallen Off a Cliff 

Post#80 » by Indeed » Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:37 pm

Jadoogar wrote:
Indeed wrote:
Jadoogar wrote:
Yes this is a great lesson for your nephew's U10 varsity team but in the NBA, defense is a lot more than just "gotta try harder"


Barnes and Banton were playing well in their first 10 games, so I don't buy "young and inexperienced". I don't see how they suddenly failed to execute the same system after the first 10 games. Same thing as OG, no way he suddenly became one of the worst DRtg player on the team.


This system is more prone to fatigue. Also teams go through hot stretches or other teams figure this system out.
Some of it is Siakam (he's been bad on defense), some of it injuries to the centers, some of it is Scottie (rookies tend to be bad at defense, especially team defense).


I can't disagree, but it feels this system cannot sustain, particularly we are not playing our bench that much.

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