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Raptors need quantity, not quality

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Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#1 » by brownbobcat » Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:04 pm

5. Maybe 5 and a half. That's how many rotation-level players the Raptors currently have.

8. That's how many they need to consistently win 50+ games.

I'm so sick of hearing after every loss about how Siakam isn't a #1 option (he's not) or VanVleet isn't a "true" PG like Lowry (he isn't as good), as if those guys are really what's holding this team back. Every player has flaws. Good-not-great players aren't the problem, the team just doesn't have enough talent. I've argued endlessly since the beginning that Siakam shouldn't have been given the max (with added kickers), but his contract isn't stopping Toronto from getting a star. It's sub-optimal, that's it.

Go back to 2013 and you see the exact same situation, some good pieces but not enough talent overall. Obviously, everyone understands the importance of superstar talent, but those guys aren't easily available and it's not worth discussing some pipe dream. That 2013 team turned itself around by getting 2 - 2.5 rotation players (Patterson, Greivis, Salmons) in exchange for a non-star (Gay). It then elevated itself into an elite team by hitting on nearly every pick over the next 2-3 years, getting starter-level players and useful bench players late in the draft like OG, Norm, VanVleet, Siakam, Poeltl, Delon.

The 2022 squad doesn't have extra picks, but it has a core 5 with arguably more potential than 2013. If one (or both) of Banton/Precious can step it up next year, they hit on another pick and can pick up a useful player like Otto Porter or Taurean Prince with the MLE, the Raptors will have found those extra 3 guys they need.

I'm not against trading Siakam, VanVleet or anybody else or getting a high lotto pick, it just has to make sense in the push to adding assets. Would a mini-tank make sense if the losses started piling up? Yeah, it'd be worth exploring if a team like Chicago was open to trading Pat Williams for immediate help. 1 step back, 2 forward. But there's a base there for that path forward, this team isn't that far away and they can let the situation dictate the next move instead of panicking and blowing everything up.
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Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#2 » by Tor_Raps » Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:13 pm

Sorry but the NBA has always been a quality over quantity league. Yes, quantity can boost your regular season record but the playoffs mostly come down to the quality of your top end players.
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Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#3 » by Psubs » Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:15 pm

1. OG
2. Barnes
3. FVV
4. Trent
5. Siakam

6. Banton
7. Birch
8. Precious
9. Yuta
10. Svi
11. Dragic
12. Flynn
13. Boucher

Looks like a lot of quantity. I guess they need to make a Marc Gasol level trade to consolidate some of that quantity for quality.
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Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#4 » by Fairview4Life » Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:16 pm

Boucher falling off a cliff hasn't helped.
9. Similarly, IF THOU HAST SPENT the entire offseason predicting that thy team will stink, thou shalt not gloat, nor even be happy, shouldst thou turn out to be correct. Realistic analysis is fine, but be a fan first, a smug smarty-pants second.
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Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#5 » by Fairview4Life » Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:17 pm

Psubs wrote:1. OG
2. Barnes
3. FVV
4. Trent
5. Siakam

6. Banton
7. Birch
8. Precious
9. Yuta
10. Svi
11. Dragic
12. Flynn
13. Boucher

Looks like a lot of quantity. I guess they need to make a Marc Gasol level trade to consolidate some of that quantity for quality.


Yuta and Dragic don't play. Boucher has been butt. Banton and Svi have cooled off, and Precious has Biyombo level hands on offense.
9. Similarly, IF THOU HAST SPENT the entire offseason predicting that thy team will stink, thou shalt not gloat, nor even be happy, shouldst thou turn out to be correct. Realistic analysis is fine, but be a fan first, a smug smarty-pants second.
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Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#6 » by brownbobcat » Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:20 pm

Psubs wrote:1. OG
2. Barnes
3. FVV
4. Trent
5. Siakam

6. Banton
7. Birch
8. Precious
9. Yuta
10. Svi
11. Dragic
12. Flynn
13. Boucher

Looks like a lot of quantity. I guess they need to make a Marc Gasol level trade to consolidate some of that quantity for quality.

Quantity of rotation-level players. As I said, my count is basically 5 or 5.5 right now, so that basically excludes everyone 6-13 right now. All I'm saying is that they don't need stars, not that stars are a bad thing to have.

What you suggested is also quite possible, you don't need some homerun trade to get rotation-quality guys.
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Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#7 » by Mikistan » Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:23 pm

Fairview4Life wrote:
Psubs wrote:1. OG
2. Barnes
3. FVV
4. Trent
5. Siakam

6. Banton
7. Birch
8. Precious
9. Yuta
10. Svi
11. Dragic
12. Flynn
13. Boucher

Looks like a lot of quantity. I guess they need to make a Marc Gasol level trade to consolidate some of that quantity for quality.


Yuta and Dragic don't play. Boucher has been butt. Banton and Svi have cooled off, and Precious has Biyombo level hands on offense.

Yuta is def in the rotation, hes been injured... boucher has been really bad but we cant expect 43% from 3pt like last year to be the norm

Banton is still long- but we use him off-ball too much he needs to be on ball - and ticky tack fouls hurt our entire team including him
Svi has cooled off, but hes a good shooter and we need shooters on this roster
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Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#8 » by Dennis 37 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:23 pm

Our problem is too many players having to learn the system. Stanley Johnson, who only played garbage time minutes his first year with us, said that it takes a good year to learn the system. Even though he was playing regularly in season 2, he admitted he was just getting comfortable. Now some players learn faster than others, but Stanley was a defense first guy and he took a year.

Scottie, Precious, Khem, Banton, Svi, and Gary, are still within their first year with us; Yuta and Malachi just their second.

The quantity problem is the number of players still learning the defense.
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Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#9 » by Mikistan » Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:23 pm

brownbobcat wrote:
Psubs wrote:1. OG
2. Barnes
3. FVV
4. Trent
5. Siakam

6. Banton
7. Birch
8. Precious
9. Yuta
10. Svi
11. Dragic
12. Flynn
13. Boucher

Looks like a lot of quantity. I guess they need to make a Marc Gasol level trade to consolidate some of that quantity for quality.

Quantity of rotation-level players. As I said, my count is basically 5 or 5.5 right now, so that basically excludes everyone 6-13 right now. All I'm saying is that they don't need stars, not that stars are a bad thing to have.


Any team that does not have a option 1 on offense needs stars
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Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#10 » by brownbobcat » Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:23 pm

Tor_Raps wrote:Sorry but the NBA has always been a quality over quantity league. Yes, quantity can boost your regular season record but the playoffs mostly come down to quality and your top end talent.

Let's worry about being a good team first before being a championship team, plus I have faith in Barnes' potential as a #1.

Nobody is against star talent, that's just not a realistic option right now.
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Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#11 » by brownbobcat » Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:26 pm

Mikistan wrote:Any team that does not have a option 1 on offense needs stars

Every team can benefit from a star, that's self-evident. How are you getting this #1 option star with the Raptors' current assets?

This team as-is, warts and all, can get to 50 wins with a few more pieces.
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Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#12 » by VanWest82 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:31 pm

This is what a rebuild looks like. We have four winning players but no star, and a whole bunch of youth and fringe support guys that need time. Ultimately, we need both quantity and quality.
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Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#13 » by mack_435 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:35 pm

Quantity isn't the problem in my eyes its that the pieces don't fit. We need more playmaking out of our guard positions. Fred is average or below average playmaker and Gary Trent is a scorer. They don't compliment each other at all. Just look at where the raptors rank in team assists. They are fourth from the bottom. The teams below them are Orlando, OKC and Houston enough said.
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Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#14 » by Mikistan » Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:39 pm

brownbobcat wrote:
Mikistan wrote:Any team that does not have a option 1 on offense needs stars

Every team can benefit from a star, that's self-evident. How are you getting this #1 option star with the Raptors' current assets?

This team as-is, warts and all, can get to 50 wins with a few more pieces.


I mean you yourself claimed " All I'm saying is that they don't need stars"
We need a start to properly complete so I was responding to that.

It is kind of tough to add to our team - easiest thing is to get anything of value out of Dragic' contract and to unload the 10M expiring that is Boucher.

With that you can package flynn but hes cheap

OG is on my untouchable list, same with Barnes -

FVV, Siakam, Trent would have value in the league based on their contracts - but its tough to 'upgrade' each of them for 1 individual player that better -

Theres nothing to do until we can offload Dragic/Boucher before deadline
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Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#15 » by ConSarnit » Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:46 pm

brownbobcat wrote:
Mikistan wrote:Any team that does not have a option 1 on offense needs stars

Every team can benefit from a star, that's self-evident. How are you getting this #1 option star with the Raptors' current assets?

This team as-is, warts and all, can get to 50 wins with a few more pieces.


So you contend that we don't have the assets to get a true #1 but your solution is to make the team better (by trading away assets), therefore:

-lowering the value of our future assets due to our record improving?
-lowering our available assets by possibly trading for flat out bad players? (Taurean Prince?)

We have 1 avenue to get a star: the draft. Free agents don't come here. The Kawhi deal was a one-off that has never happened before (or since) in NBA history.
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Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#16 » by brownbobcat » Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:52 pm

Mikistan wrote:I mean you yourself claimed " All I'm saying is that they don't need stars".
We need a start to properly complete so I was responding to that.

"Need" is different than "could benefit from".

I don't need a Porsche, but it'd be nice to have one.

The Raptors need better players, it just doesn't have to be superstar or bust.

Mikistan wrote:It is kind of tough to add to our team - easiest thing is to get anything of value out of Dragic' contract and to unload the 10M expiring that is Boucher.

With that you can package flynn but hes cheap

OG is on my untouchable list, same with Barnes -

FVV, Siakam, Trent would have value in the league based on their contracts - but its tough to 'upgrade' each of them for 1 individual player that better -

Theres nothing to do until we can offload Dragic/Boucher before deadline

This is somewhat my point, the Raptors aren't realistically going to be able to upgrade their top-end talent - not without severely degrading overall talent-level. The cost of getting a non-superstar like Beal wouldn't be worth it.
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Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#17 » by brownbobcat » Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:10 pm

ConSarnit wrote:So you contend that we don't have the assets to get a true #1 but your solution is to make the team better (by trading away assets), therefore:

-lowering the value of our future assets due to our record improving?
-lowering our available assets by possibly trading for flat out bad players? (Taurean Prince?)

We have 1 avenue to get a star: the draft. Free agents don't come here. The Kawhi deal was a one-off that has never happened before (or since) in NBA history.

There are many, non-mutually exclusive, ways to acquiring more rotation-level talent. What does Kawhi have to do with anything?

I don't subscribe to a superstar-or-bust mentality. There may come a time to do a complete teardown, but that time isn't now. I think it's ridiculous to chuck everything aside to embark on a wild goose chase for a star.
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Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#18 » by bbalnation » Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:38 pm

This is actually an interesting point. I do agree to a certain degree. In order for Nurses system to peak, well have to see 5 6'8 guys out there. That way anybody can guard everybody, as opposed to now where one person ruins it by either being too small or too slow.
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Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#19 » by HomieOmey » Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:38 pm

mack_435 wrote:Quantity isn't the problem in my eyes its that the pieces don't fit. We need more playmaking out of our guard positions. Fred is average or below average playmaker and Gary Trent is a scorer. They don't compliment each other at all. Just look at where the raptors rank in team assists. They are fourth from the bottom. The teams below them are Orlando, OKC and Houston enough said.


This is exactly where I sit. So many are clamoring to "potential assists" and stats like that these days, but it feels pretty clear to me that ball movement and creation are clearly lacking. I get that guys like Boucher, Dragic, etc.. barely look like rotation guys right now, but is anyone telling me a team like the Mavs, Wizards, or Bulls wouldn't make those guys work? Siakam and FVV are making things very difficult for us because they likely need someone closer to Lavine/Beal to work as an actual trio. We can't rely on them to be a consistent 1/2 punch and they still need help creating for others.
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Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#20 » by HomieOmey » Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:46 pm

bbalnation wrote:This is actually an interesting point. I do agree to a certain degree. In order for Nurses system to peak, well have to see 5 6'8 guys out there. That way anybody can guard everybody, as opposed to now where one person ruins it by either being too small or too slow.


And wouldn't that be easier if we had one quality big like Turner who could space the floor and defend while putting less pressure on OG/Siakam to play those positions more than we would like to? Boucher was in the running for most improved and 6th man awards last year, from what I remember. Having Boucher, Precious, and Birch feels like quantity to me. I just don't think we have the actual high talent needed to make a quantity rotation work.
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