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Raptors need quantity, not quality

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OakleyDokely
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Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#41 » by OakleyDokely » Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:23 pm

brownbobcat wrote:
OakleyDokely wrote:You add a top 15 player to this roster and they're a contender for the finals. The Raps have options 2-6 already in place with Siakam, OG, VV, GTJ and Barnes.

So for me it's a quality thing.

And you expect that the Raptors could magically do that without giving anything up?


Nope, but even if you trade 2 of those 5 guys in a package for one, you still have options 2/3/4 in place.

If you add more depth, the Raps still aren't a finals contender. But if you add a star, I think they are (depending on the star)
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Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#42 » by dacrusha » Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:27 pm

This is year 2 of a 6-8 year journey.

The best you can hope for right now is a good mix of young talent and tradeable assets with a potential star in the mix, led by a top tier coach and a top tier management organization.

Check, check, check and check.
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Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#43 » by brownbobcat » Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:44 pm

OakleyDokely wrote:Nope, but even if you trade 2 of those 5 guys in a package for one, you still have options 2/3/4 in place.

If you add more depth, the Raps still aren't a finals contender. But if you add a star, I think they are (depending on the star)

They aren't getting LeBron, KD, Curry, Giannis, Luka, etc. for 2/5.

Could you maybe get a fringe guy like Beal for Barnes/Siakam? Possibly, but they wouldn't be any better off and that guy would probably demand a trade in a year. Even if you got 2019 Kawhi instead, it wouldn't make a difference during that window - this team doesn't have the pieces.

Can they add 3 bench/starter level players and go to the Finals? Of course not. But can they start winning 50 games, build up their assets through draft & trade again and wait for the right moment to pounce on a star? Absolutely. Add prime Delon Wright, Amir Johnson and Danny Green to this team and they're easily in the playoffs.
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Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#44 » by OakleyDokely » Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:01 pm

brownbobcat wrote:
OakleyDokely wrote:Nope, but even if you trade 2 of those 5 guys in a package for one, you still have options 2/3/4 in place.

If you add more depth, the Raps still aren't a finals contender. But if you add a star, I think they are (depending on the star)

They aren't getting LeBron, KD, Curry, Giannis, Luka, etc. for 2/5.

Could you maybe get a fringe guy like Beal for Barnes/Siakam? Possibly, but they wouldn't be any better off and that guy would probably demand a trade in a year. Even if you got 2019 Kawhi instead, it wouldn't make a difference during that window - this team doesn't have the pieces.

Can they add 3 bench/starter level players and go to the Finals? Of course not. But can they start winning 50 games, build up their assets through draft & trade again and wait for the right moment to pounce on a star? Absolutely. Add prime Delon Wright, Amir Johnson and Danny Green to this team and they're easily in the playoffs.


I disagree. The Raps have all their picks. They have a lot of young assets under 27. They're in a good position to add the next unhappy star if they wanted to go that route.

My guess is though, the Raps will likley build slowly over the next year or two, then see where they are and make a decision whether to be more aggressive on the trade front.
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Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#45 » by aligator » Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:05 pm

An unhappy star elsewhere may also be unhappy here. We lucked out on Leonard. Likely not going to happen that way again. Masai has already stated that building it is now the way it has to happen.
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Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#46 » by brownbobcat » Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:23 pm

OakleyDokely wrote:I disagree. The Raps have all their picks. They have a lot of young assets under 27. They're in a good position to add the next unhappy star if they wanted to go that route.

My guess is though, the Raps will likley build slowly over the next year or two, then see where they are and make a decision whether to be more aggressive on the trade front.

Yes, they have all their picks but nothing extra like OKC. If you compare their stockpile today vs. 2018, it's night and day. That squad had a full starting 5 of players in their prime AND another set of 5 prospects under 25.

Getting a star now would be a Pyrrhic victory and they wouldn't have enough left to win within 1-2 years.
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Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#47 » by OakleyDokely » Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:36 pm

brownbobcat wrote:
OakleyDokely wrote:I disagree. The Raps have all their picks. They have a lot of young assets under 27. They're in a good position to add the next unhappy star if they wanted to go that route.

My guess is though, the Raps will likley build slowly over the next year or two, then see where they are and make a decision whether to be more aggressive on the trade front.

Yes, they have all their picks but nothing extra like OKC. If you compare their stockpile today vs. 2018, it's night and day. That squad had a full starting 5 of players in their prime AND another set of 5 prospects under 25.

Getting a star now would be a Pyrrhic victory and they wouldn't have enough left to win within 1-2 years.
I doubt OKC is going to trade their picks to add a win now star, but ya, if OKC wants a certain player they likely get him.
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Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#48 » by pingpongrac » Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:21 pm

brownbobcat wrote:
OakleyDokely wrote:I disagree. The Raps have all their picks. They have a lot of young assets under 27. They're in a good position to add the next unhappy star if they wanted to go that route.

My guess is though, the Raps will likley build slowly over the next year or two, then see where they are and make a decision whether to be more aggressive on the trade front.

Yes, they have all their picks but nothing extra like OKC. If you compare their stockpile today vs. 2018, it's night and day. That squad had a full starting 5 of players in their prime AND another set of 5 prospects under 25.

Getting a star now would be a Pyrrhic victory and they wouldn't have enough left to win within 1-2 years.


We were loaded with depth and had some prospects, but our prospects were pretty middling pieces at the time. Poeltl was a #9 pick that looked to be a solid bench piece, Siakam hadn't even come close to breaking out as he was still primarily just a hustle player (353 of his 498 shots came in the paint) and there were numerous debates regarding which of Delon/FVV would be the back-up PG. OG, who was almost entirely just a 3+D player that finished well inside because he was generally set up, was our most intriguing prospect. Powell looked absolutely awful in 2017/18 after two decent seasons and his value was pretty low. The rest (Bruno and Richardson) held absolutely no value.

The young pieces we have now are far more enticing. We have 4+ seasons of OG being a premier defender as well as a blossoming scorer (and he's still just 24). GTJ is an elite shooter (nearly 40% on 5.6 3FGA/game for his career) that has shown signs of becoming a very good defender at 22. Banton, though in limited games/minutes, looks like he'll be a very good piece for a long time as long as he keeps working on his shot. Flynn, Achiuwa and Svi (all 24 or younger) have more value than Bruno/Richardson. And obviously there is Scottie (though I think we can all agree that he is the most untouchable player on the roster).

I don't know how far off the current talent/potential pool is from the 2017/18 team that eventually turned DeRozan+Poeltl+late 1st into Kawhi in the offseason. The only glaring difference is the top of the roster. DeRozan was always more stats than substance, but he did have 4 all-star appearances under his belt and was a 20+ PPG scorer for 5 straight season. Lowry was clearly our best player, but he seemingly held less value than DeRozan around the league and was a bit underrated. FVV+Siakam are both a step down from DeRozan+Lowry, but the gap isn't that far off IMO. Most of the gap is due to accolades and DeRozan+Lowry being on 50-win teams for a few years in their late 20s. FVV+Siakam are both proven winners that contribute to winning in big ways, but they're just being asked to do a bit too much with a young roster.

If a disgruntled star became available, I think Siakam/FVV + GTJ + picks would be very reasonable for both sides. The team losing the star would still be getting back a borderline all-star (in either Siakam or FVV) with a few years of control and a young scorer as well as a couple picks for the future. That would still leave us with a very solid base of Barnes+OG+Siakam/FVV as our 2-4 options and solid depth in Birch/Achiuwa+Banton+Yuta/Boucher+Dragic (who people seem to be forgetting would still be a valuable 20-24 MPG bench piece for a contending team). Who knows if a team like OKC would outbid us and send out a boatload of picks though.
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Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#49 » by brownbobcat » Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:13 pm

pingpongrac wrote:We were loaded with depth and had some prospects, but our prospects were pretty middling pieces at the time. Poeltl was a #9 pick that looked to be a solid bench piece, Siakam hadn't even come close to breaking out as he was still primarily just a hustle player (353 of his 498 shots came in the paint) and there were numerous debates regarding which of Delon/FVV would be the back-up PG. OG, who was almost entirely just a 3+D player that finished well inside because he was generally set up, was our most intriguing prospect. Powell looked absolutely awful in 2017/18 after two decent seasons and his value was pretty low. The rest (Bruno and Richardson) held absolutely no value.

The young pieces we have now are far more enticing. We have 4+ seasons of OG being a premier defender as well as a blossoming scorer (and he's still just 24). GTJ is an elite shooter (nearly 40% on 5.6 3FGA/game for his career) that has shown signs of becoming a very good defender at 22. Banton, though in limited games/minutes, looks like he'll be a very good piece for a long time as long as he keeps working on his shot. Flynn, Achiuwa and Svi (all 24 or younger) have more value than Bruno/Richardson. And obviously there is Scottie (though I think we can all agree that he is the most untouchable player on the roster).

I don't know how far off the current talent/potential pool is from the 2017/18 team that eventually turned DeRozan+Poeltl+late 1st into Kawhi in the offseason. The only glaring difference is the top of the roster. DeRozan was always more stats than substance, but he did have 4 all-star appearances under his belt and was a 20+ PPG scorer for 5 straight season. Lowry was clearly our best player, but he seemingly held less value than DeRozan around the league and was a bit underrated. FVV+Siakam are both a step down from DeRozan+Lowry, but the gap isn't that far off IMO. Most of the gap is due to accolades and DeRozan+Lowry being on 50-win teams for a few years in their late 20s. FVV+Siakam are both proven winners that contribute to winning in big ways, but they're just being asked to do a bit too much with a young roster.

If a disgruntled star became available, I think Siakam/FVV + GTJ + picks would be very reasonable for both sides. The team losing the star would still be getting back a borderline all-star (in either Siakam or FVV) with a few years of control and a young scorer as well as a couple picks for the future. That would still leave us with a very solid base of Barnes+OG+Siakam/FVV as our 2-4 options and solid depth in Birch/Achiuwa+Banton+Yuta/Boucher+Dragic (who people seem to be forgetting would still be a valuable 20-24 MPG bench piece for a contending team). Who knows if a team like OKC would outbid us and send out a boatload of picks though.

Today's top 5 (Siakam, FVV, Barnes, GTJ, OG) compares decently against 2018 (Lowry, DeRozan, Ibaka, JV, young OG). We can nit-pick here and there, but I think it's close. Banton is probably a little lower value than where Delon/Fred were in 2018, but I won't argue that point much.

After that, it falls off completely. I'm not even going to mention the other guys on today's roster by name, but they're FAR below where the bench mob was in 2018. There was a reason we didn't want to give up Siakam for Kawhi, he'd showed far more promise by the end of his 2nd year than just a rim-runner like Precious. Don't forget, this was a team winning 55+ games, they were good. Add Paul George to this team, subtract Siakam & GTJ - they still ain't a contender.

On top of that, we're downplaying how much doubt there was that Kawhi would ever play again. It'd almost be like trading for Kyrie today - would we be any further ahead by getting him in return for FVV + 1? I doubt it.
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Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#50 » by FreshyFlames » Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:14 pm

Psubs wrote:1. OG
2. Barnes
3. FVV
4. Trent
5. Siakam

6. Banton
7. Birch
8. Precious
9. Yuta
10. Svi
11. Dragic
12. Flynn
13. Boucher

Looks like a lot of quantity. I guess they need to make a Marc Gasol level trade to consolidate some of that quantity for quality.


You do know every team has at least 13 players right ? Right? That's a quantity of crap and fans need to stop acting like those bench guys are any good for winning games. Remember when people were saying Birch/Banton/Boucher was the best bench combo in the league ? It was only like 2 weeks ago :lol:
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