ImageImageImageImageImage

Raptors need quantity, not quality

Moderators: 7 Footer, Reeko, lebron stopper, Morris_Shatford, DG88, niQ, gojoorange

Danny1616
General Manager
Posts: 9,437
And1: 12,461
Joined: May 26, 2007

Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#21 » by Danny1616 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:23 pm

ConSarnit wrote:
brownbobcat wrote:
Mikistan wrote:Any team that does not have a option 1 on offense needs stars

Every team can benefit from a star, that's self-evident. How are you getting this #1 option star with the Raptors' current assets?

This team as-is, warts and all, can get to 50 wins with a few more pieces.


So you contend that we don't have the assets to get a true #1 but your solution is to make the team better (by trading away assets), therefore:

-lowering the value of our future assets due to our record improving?
-lowering our available assets by possibly trading for flat out bad players? (Taurean Prince?)

We have 1 avenue to get a star: the draft. Free agents don't come here. The Kawhi deal was a one-off that has never happened before (or since) in NBA history.


It's 1 avenue, but you don't necessarily need to tank to get that star. Guys like Booker, Mitchell, Kawhi, Giannis, Jokic, Butler, Klay, Mitchell were found from the mid-1st round or onwards. Obviously the odds are greater at the top, but dismantling your team or intentionally trying to lose comes with its own flaws. You ruin your culture, getting a star is still statistically low, and your chances of retaining that player long-term are slim because you don't have the culture, identity and strong supporting cast in place.

We can also develop players internally and make smart trades as well. Lowry, for example, was acquired via trade. Pascal was developed.
User avatar
pingpongrac
Head Coach
Posts: 7,193
And1: 9,235
Joined: Mar 18, 2015
   

Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#22 » by pingpongrac » Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:31 pm

mack_435 wrote:Quantity isn't the problem in my eyes its that the pieces don't fit. We need more playmaking out of our guard positions. Fred is average or below average playmaker and Gary Trent is a scorer. They don't compliment each other at all. Just look at where the raptors rank in team assists. They are fourth from the bottom. The teams below them are Orlando, OKC and Houston enough said.


Assists aren't everything though. Utah is averaging 21.9 AST (1.0 more than us) and they're the #1 offence in the league. On the other end of the spectrum, San Antonio is 2nd in APG (27.8) and they're the 22nd best offence.

Even in our Championship year we weren't really a high assist team. We were 13th and 14th in APG and AST%...and that was with great playmakers in Lowry (and Gasol in the second half) triggering a lot of our offence.
Image
Rodrickle
Sophomore
Posts: 239
And1: 145
Joined: Mar 16, 2021

Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#23 » by Rodrickle » Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:48 pm

HomieOmey wrote:
bbalnation wrote:This is actually an interesting point. I do agree to a certain degree. In order for Nurses system to peak, well have to see 5 6'8 guys out there. That way anybody can guard everybody, as opposed to now where one person ruins it by either being too small or too slow.


And wouldn't that be easier if we had one quality big like Turner who could space the floor and defend while putting less pressure on OG/Siakam to play those positions more than we would like to? Boucher was in the running for most improved and 6th man awards last year, from what I remember. Having Boucher, Precious, and Birch feels like quantity to me. I just don't think we have the actual high talent needed to make a quantity rotation work.
Agreed, I think Turner would really help. He's no all star but his rim protection and spacing would help. I think our rebounding would get worse though, but it would be worth it

Sent from my SM-G973W using RealGM mobile app
User avatar
HomieOmey
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,808
And1: 423
Joined: Jun 29, 2009
Location: TO
Contact:

Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#24 » by HomieOmey » Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:51 pm

pingpongrac wrote:
mack_435 wrote:Quantity isn't the problem in my eyes its that the pieces don't fit. We need more playmaking out of our guard positions. Fred is average or below average playmaker and Gary Trent is a scorer. They don't compliment each other at all. Just look at where the raptors rank in team assists. They are fourth from the bottom. The teams below them are Orlando, OKC and Houston enough said.


Assists aren't everything though. Utah is averaging 21.9 AST (1.0 more than us) and they're the #1 offence in the league. On the other end of the spectrum, San Antonio is 2nd in APG (27.8) and they're the 22nd best offence.

Even in our Championship year we weren't really a high assist team. We were 13th and 14th in APG and AST%...and that was with great playmakers in Lowry (and Gasol in the second half) triggering a lot of our offence.


I agree, but FVV is still a far way away from being at the level of Mitchell, Kawhi, Beal, Luka, etc... I think you're ok with lower team assists when you have guys like them. If we're going to be a team with 5 solid players but no superstar, I do think our team assists / playmaking need to see quite a bit of improvement.
Image
TurboZ
ciueli
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,955
And1: 1,341
Joined: Apr 11, 2007

Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#25 » by ciueli » Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:13 pm

It's just too many guys who can't shoot seeing minutes and opposing teams know which players can shoot and which can't. The modern NBA is all about shooting to create spacing for drivers and scoring near the basket and we are playing guys like Barnes, Boucher, Achiuwa, and Birch who can't help with spacing (Boucher was able to do this last season but he has been a huge disappointment this season).

If we could get Fred + GTJ + OG + Pascal on the floor together more it might solve some of this, but Pascal was injured to start the season and now OG is missing time.
User avatar
HiJiNX
Head Coach
Posts: 7,219
And1: 1,400
Joined: Mar 19, 2004
Location: T-Dot

Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#26 » by HiJiNX » Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:53 pm

The guys are talented enough. They’re just still two years away. Just gotta be patient and let them develop. Even FVV, OG and Siakam who have been around forever are learning how to manage expanded roles. It just takes time. I actually really like this team’s collection of talent. It just needs time and some small tweaks to role definition to get the most out of the guys.
not strong, only aggresive cuz the power ain't directed/ that's why, we are subjected to the will of the oppressive
User avatar
canz55
Senior
Posts: 707
And1: 728
Joined: Aug 13, 2020
       

Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#27 » by canz55 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:14 am

I'm running out of patience personally speaking.

We're almost 20 games in and we've been outplayed a ton. I knew there would be some adjusting and some of the young guys are going to make mistakes but our bench play has been abysmal. It's like every time our bench is on its a black hole in the game where we rack up turnovers while simultaneously missing shots.

I agree with OP. If we had like two or more useful bench players that could give us some **** scoring for once while being resectable defensively, I could live with that and this season would be bearable. At the moment this whole thing is starting to feel like Tampa all over again until the Raps convince me otherwise.

Sent from my SM-G998W using RealGM mobile app
ImageWe the Champs...
User avatar
kingr
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,931
And1: 2,011
Joined: Aug 03, 2006

Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#28 » by kingr » Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:41 am

I could be way off, but it sounds like you want more of a quantity of quality players...
Anyways, Quality > Quantity. This team is young, we lost many of our top players the last few years, I can't say I'm shocked at how good or bad the team is now.
User avatar
WaltFrazier
General Manager
Posts: 8,217
And1: 7,041
Joined: Jan 21, 2006
Location: Ontario
       

Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#29 » by WaltFrazier » Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:07 am

ConSarnit wrote:
brownbobcat wrote:
Mikistan wrote:Any team that does not have a option 1 on offense needs stars

Every team can benefit from a star, that's self-evident. How are you getting this #1 option star with the Raptors' current assets?

This team as-is, warts and all, can get to 50 wins with a few more pieces.


So you contend that we don't have the assets to get a true #1 but your solution is to make the team better (by trading away assets), therefore:

-lowering the value of our future assets due to our record improving?
-lowering our available assets by possibly trading for flat out bad players? (Taurean Prince?)

We have 1 avenue to get a star: the draft. Free agents don't come here. The Kawhi deal was a one-off that has never happened before (or since) in NBA history.


I'm not saying a Kawhi type deal will ever happen for us again. But it's not unthinkable, and it wasn't the only time a superstar was traded for lesser talent because he wanted out. Harden, Barkley, Kareem, Wilt.
User avatar
WaltFrazier
General Manager
Posts: 8,217
And1: 7,041
Joined: Jan 21, 2006
Location: Ontario
       

Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#30 » by WaltFrazier » Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:08 am

One or two veteran additions would help this young roster.
User avatar
Gold Dragon
Analyst
Posts: 3,483
And1: 3,885
Joined: Jul 02, 2006
Location: Oz
 

Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#31 » by Gold Dragon » Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:25 am

The quantity has been sitting on our injured lists. When is the last time we haven’t had 2 rotation players out?
Appostis
Junior
Posts: 443
And1: 459
Joined: May 11, 2021
   

Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#32 » by Appostis » Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:11 am

The team is young as *--*
Give it a season. Throwing out a Allstar level player for low end starters is a recipe for first round exits.

Give the young players a season of development, get another asset, then see where the team is...
Chandan
RealGM
Posts: 10,366
And1: 13,824
Joined: Nov 23, 2017
 

Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#33 » by Chandan » Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:58 am

Whats the reference for quality? Their NBA 2K player score?
Image
Zeno
RealGM
Posts: 13,839
And1: 12,520
Joined: Jun 06, 2001
   

Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#34 » by Zeno » Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:35 pm

Since the days of Landry Fields, Chuck Hayes, etc.(basically the 2nd season of Masai being here, there has been a decision not to fill the backend of the roster with proven, older NBA players outside of the title year. If they wanted to sign a bunch of legit 8th or 9th men in their late 20s, early 30s in the offseason contracts, I'm sure it could have been done. But I think propping up the win total that way, goes against the Masai's philosophy. Khem Birch for this reason, was a pretty surprising contract to me. I don't think they want to avoid the play-in as much as make the play-in based on the performance of a bunch of players who have no future value to the team.
When will we just change the name of 25 of the 30 teams to the Washington Generals?

Please advise….

Dan G.
Zeno
RealGM
Posts: 13,839
And1: 12,520
Joined: Jun 06, 2001
   

Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#35 » by Zeno » Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:36 pm

WaltFrazier wrote:One or two veteran additions would help this young roster.

Do you think they actually want to help their young roster this way? I personally don't believe they do.
When will we just change the name of 25 of the 30 teams to the Washington Generals?

Please advise….

Dan G.
ConSarnit
Pro Prospect
Posts: 859
And1: 881
Joined: May 05, 2015
 

Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#36 » by ConSarnit » Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:43 pm

WaltFrazier wrote:
ConSarnit wrote:
brownbobcat wrote:Every team can benefit from a star, that's self-evident. How are you getting this #1 option star with the Raptors' current assets?

This team as-is, warts and all, can get to 50 wins with a few more pieces.


So you contend that we don't have the assets to get a true #1 but your solution is to make the team better (by trading away assets), therefore:

-lowering the value of our future assets due to our record improving?
-lowering our available assets by possibly trading for flat out bad players? (Taurean Prince?)

We have 1 avenue to get a star: the draft. Free agents don't come here. The Kawhi deal was a one-off that has never happened before (or since) in NBA history.


I'm not saying a Kawhi type deal will ever happen for us again. But it's not unthinkable, and it wasn't the only time a superstar was traded for lesser talent because he wanted out. Harden, Barkley, Kareem, Wilt.


3/4 of those players dictated where they wanted to go. It’s not coincidence 3 of those guys ended up in LA or NY. And the guy we traded for still left even after winning a title with a team that was set up for the future and bent over backwards to cater to him while he was here. He was also injured when we traded for him allowing us to get him at a heavy discount. Lastly, he played at a level of historical greats in the playoffs. We’re talking prime Lebron/Kobe levels. In other words, we’d need to trade for the best player in the league to match the Kawhi trade. That’s why it’s so unrealistic.

Far more things have to line up for us to replicate the Kawhi trade than they do to draft a Kawhi-like player.
ConSarnit
Pro Prospect
Posts: 859
And1: 881
Joined: May 05, 2015
 

Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#37 » by ConSarnit » Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:48 pm

Zeno wrote:
WaltFrazier wrote:One or two veteran additions would help this young roster.

Do you think they actually want to help their young roster this way? I personally don't believe they do.


They don’t because it doesn’t make sense. No one in the FO is thinking “you know, if we get some vets we can win 46 games this year it will save our young guys the horror of suffering through a 40 win season”

Zero chance this FO wants to give up assets to bring in an 8th man vet.
User avatar
OakleyDokely
RealGM
Posts: 21,081
And1: 43,834
Joined: Aug 02, 2008
Location: 416
 

Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#38 » by OakleyDokely » Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:49 pm

You add a top 15 player to this roster and they're a contender for the finals. The Raps have options 2-6 already in place with Siakam, OG, VV, GTJ and Barnes.

So for me it's a quality thing.
Lord_Zedd
RealGM
Posts: 12,697
And1: 17,397
Joined: Feb 21, 2004

Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#39 » by Lord_Zedd » Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:10 pm

The main quantity issue we have is $26 million worth of salary contributing next to nothing on the court. And that's just with two players in Dragic and Boucher......
brownbobcat
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,158
And1: 1,576
Joined: Jun 09, 2006

Re: Raptors need quantity, not quality 

Post#40 » by brownbobcat » Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:10 pm

OakleyDokely wrote:You add a top 15 player to this roster and they're a contender for the finals. The Raps have options 2-6 already in place with Siakam, OG, VV, GTJ and Barnes.

So for me it's a quality thing.

And you expect that the Raptors could magically do that without giving anything up?

Return to Toronto Raptors