[Windhorst] Pascal Siakam Potentially Could Be Available For The Right Trade

[Steelo Green]

That’s exactly it. 32 year old Pascal won’t have the same athleticism he has now. Which is a huge part of his game.

He can’t shoot so what exactly will he be when he loses even half a step? Let’s even bring it down to 30-31 for the adverse.

The goal is to win a title. Not be competitive.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

I'm just on a totally different page than you guys, you guys are are scared of these big name players and I wanna go after all of these guys. This Boston team isn't way better than us if at all, even Miami or Dallas. GSW I think we are a little further behind.

Memphis was just the 2 seed and was right there with GSW without Ja playing several games.

Weather we continue to build with this core or blow it up in a few years doesn't matter to me. It won't take us long to get back right after a blow up. Why do we have to do it now or next year, our team is so young

Boston is way better than us.

they are just as good or better than the Raps defensively but much better than the Raps offensively

[DreamTeam09]

I'm just on a totally different page than you guys, you guys are are scared of these big name players and I wanna go after all of these guys. This Boston team isn't way better than us if at all, even Miami or Dallas. GSW I think we are a little further behind.

Memphis was just the 2 seed and was right there with GSW without Ja playing several games.

Weather we continue to build with this core or blow it up in a few years doesn't matter to me. It won't take us long to get back right after a blow up. Why do we have to do it now or next year, our team is so young

Boston is way better than us.

they are just as good or better than the Raps defensively but much better than the Raps offensively

You guys can say that, but they finished what, a couple of games better than us this year.

We match up well against them, and offense is easier to get better at than anything else, especially in an offseason. I'm not scared of the Celtics and neither would the Raps be in a 7 game series

[LBJKB24MJ23]

I'm just on a totally different page than you guys, you guys are are scared of these big name players and I wanna go after all of these guys. This Boston team isn't way better than us if at all, even Miami or Dallas. GSW I think we are a little further behind.

Memphis was just the 2 seed and was right there with GSW without Ja playing several games.

Weather we continue to build with this core or blow it up in a few years doesn't matter to me. It won't take us long to get back right after a blow up. Why do we have to do it now or next year, our team is so young

Boston is way better than us.

they are just as good or better than the Raps defensively but much better than the Raps offensively

You guys can say that, but they finished what, a couple of games better than us this year.

We match up well against them, and offense is easier to get better at than anything else, especially in an offseason. I'm not scared of the Celtics and neither would the Raps be in a 7 game series

Boston and Toronto were both horrible to begin the season. Raptors had the same amount of chances to grab a top 4 seed as Boston.

just because they match up well against each other does not mean Toronto can beat more of the other teams than the Celtics, for example. Raptors play any team tough, when it comes to defense.

Celtics are 5th overall in offensive efficiency. Raptors 16th.
Celtics are 2nd overall in defensive efficiency, Raptors 11th.

I''m not afraid of the Celtics but chances are they would beat the Raptors unless proven otherwise.

[DreamTeam09]

Boston is way better than us.

they are just as good or better than the Raps defensively but much better than the Raps offensively

You guys can say that, but they finished what, a couple of games better than us this year.

We match up well against them, and offense is easier to get better at than anything else, especially in an offseason. I'm not scared of the Celtics and neither would the Raps be in a 7 game series

Boston and Toronto were both horrible to begin the season. Raptors had the same amount of chances to grab a top 4 seed as Boston.

just because they match up well against each other does not mean Toronto can beat more of the other teams than the Celtics, for example. Raptors play any team tough, when it comes to defense.

Celtics are 5th overall in offensive efficiency. Raptors 16th.
Celtics are 2nd overall in defensive efficiency, Raptors 11th.

I''m not afraid of the Celtics but chances are they would beat the Raptors unless proven otherwise.

Well even that is a different tune than u were saying. Yeah the Celtics would be favs, definitely, especially with the media perspective. Would any of us be shocked if we won that serie?? I certainly wouldn't.

That Celtics group hasn't done anything the raps haven't done yet, even without Kawhi.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

You guys can say that, but they finished what, a couple of games better than us this year.

We match up well against them, and offense is easier to get better at than anything else, especially in an offseason. I'm not scared of the Celtics and neither would the Raps be in a 7 game series

Boston and Toronto were both horrible to begin the season. Raptors had the same amount of chances to grab a top 4 seed as Boston.

just because they match up well against each other does not mean Toronto can beat more of the other teams than the Celtics, for example. Raptors play any team tough, when it comes to defense.

Celtics are 5th overall in offensive efficiency. Raptors 16th.
Celtics are 2nd overall in defensive efficiency, Raptors 11th.

I''m not afraid of the Celtics but chances are they would beat the Raptors unless proven otherwise.

Well even that is a different tune than u were saying. Yeah the Celtics would be favs, definitely, especially with the media perspective. Would any of us be shocked if we won that serie?? I certainly wouldn't.

That Celtics group hasn't done anything the raps haven't done yet, even without Kawhi.

Celtics are much better team overall this year. Raptors are just a team that matches well with them because we have similar player profiles. and when i say they are a much better team - they perform more consistently against all teams unlike the Raptors.

The Celtics' two best players are 24 and 25. Right at the beginning of their primes. they are just getting started.

Considering the Raptors faced Tatum and Brown prior to their primes and lost, I don't need to read into the media that the celtics are favorites. and they are extremely well coached. I'm surprised how well Ime Udoka has adjusted and transitioned from Brad Stevens, who also coached the Celtics well in years past.

Barnes is the deciding factor going forward. if he can't shoot, Raptors ceiling not that much higher. if he can draw fouls, shoot/score at will, take the Raptors above the Celtics (along with Siakam, Precious OG and FVV)

[Los_29]

Boston and Toronto were both horrible to begin the season. Raptors had the same amount of chances to grab a top 4 seed as Boston.

just because they match up well against each other does not mean Toronto can beat more of the other teams than the Celtics, for example. Raptors play any team tough, when it comes to defense.

Celtics are 5th overall in offensive efficiency. Raptors 16th.
Celtics are 2nd overall in defensive efficiency, Raptors 11th.

I''m not afraid of the Celtics but chances are they would beat the Raptors unless proven otherwise.

Well even that is a different tune than u were saying. Yeah the Celtics would be favs, definitely, especially with the media perspective. Would any of us be shocked if we won that serie?? I certainly wouldn't.

That Celtics group hasn't done anything the raps haven't done yet, even without Kawhi.

Celtics are much better team overall this year. Raptors are just a team that matches well with them because we have similar player profiles. and when i say they are a much better team - they perform more consistently against all teams unlike the Raptors.

The Celtics' two best players are 24 and 25. Right at the beginning of their primes. they are just getting started.

Considering the Raptors faced Tatum and Brown prior to their primes and lost, I don't need to read into the media that the celtics are favorites. and they are extremely well coached. I'm surprised how well Ime Udoka has adjusted and transitioned from Brad Stevens, who also coached the Celtics well in years past.

Barnes is the deciding factor going forward. if he can't shoot, Raptors ceiling not that much higher. if he can draw fouls, shoot/score at will, take the Raptors above the Celtics (along with Siakam, Precious OG and FVV)

That's the thing though, they aren't a much better team this year. They only won 3 more games and their best players played a lot more games than our best players. A LOT more. We also played a 20 year old rookie 35 minutes a night. Scottie hasn't even scratched the surface of what he can do. He's going to improve a lot more than anyone on the Celtics.

In the first couple of months the Celtics were borderline unwatchable. Tatum and Brown were playing way too much hero ball. Their offense had zero flow. They got that sorted out because they had to. If they didn't they would have been in the play-in. But that ability to get back to that brand of basketball has appeared at times in the playoffs and luckily for them the shorthanded Bucks weren't able to capitalize. The NBA is wide open now. I can't recall a time where it was this wide open. You just had the Mavs beat the Suns, Golden State has advanced to the WCF after missing the playoffs last year. Celtics were awful for a third of the year and the Heat got swept in embarrassing fashion by the Bucks last year. And yet these are the final four teams. No one had these teams in the final four at the beginning of the year. No one.

In 2020 the Celtics had Kemba Walker who averaged 20/5/4 in the playoffs that year and they still went 7 games with us despite Pascal having his struggles in the bubble and us trotting out a couple past their prime players in Ibaka and Gasol. Gasol is now retired and Ibaka doesn't play.

You also need to consider that the Celtics would've lost against the Bucks if Middleton played. They barely squeaked past them. What happened when the Sixers played without Simmons two years ago? They got bounced in the first round. What happened when the Celtics played without Brown last year? They got bounced in the first round. And yet this Bucks team took the Celtics to 7 without Middleton. I'm not saying we would beat the Celtics or that we would be favourites against them but if both teams are healthy we likely give them a good series just like we did 18 months ago. Tatum and Brown have improved but so has OG, Fred, Pascal.

[tecumseh18]

Obviously the Raps are currently inferior to the C's, especially with a healthy Time Lord. Horford is on his last legs, but he can still play.

But our realistic hope for the future is the continued development of Scottie and Precious, and even Gary. Pascal getting his shot back. OG improving his mid-range game and handle. Projecting three years into the future, Raps match-up very well with the Celtics. No need for desperate measures.

[DreamTeam09]

Obviously the Raps are currently inferior to the C's, especially with a healthy Time Lord. Horford is on his last legs, but he can still play.

But our realistic hope for the future is the continued development of Scottie and Precious, and even Gary. Pascal getting his shot back. OG improving his mid-range game and handle. Projecting three years into the future, Raps match-up very well with the Celtics. No need for desperate measures.

We are inferior, but in the same breath u mentioned with a "healthy timelord" and Horford on his "last legs"

I mean again, doesn't scream fear/dynasty in my eyes as they're being made out to be.

[t54zhao]

That's not saying anything because all playoff teams are a Kawhi away. Getting a superstar is by far the most difficult piece of puzzle. Realistically, if Barnes is to become one, it'll not happen until he's at least 25. That's 5 years away which would place Siakam at 33 years old and no longer suitable to be a #2 for a Championship team.

This is the crux of the matter in the belief that Siakam being 8+ years older is not on the same timeline trajectory for another Championship run led by Barnes. Ideally, Siakam should be traded when his value is highest which is this summer. Since he's an UFA in 2024, his trade value drops next year because he'll only be a 1-year rental.

Some people on here think a Kawhi type trade is an easy thing to accomplish.

Pascal to Phoenix (they need to replace terrible Crowder as the starting PF and the Raptors have to many) for Deandre Ayton and four 1st round picks. Then trade players to Washington with six first picks for Beal (that is extended for super max).

PG Barnes - Flynn
SG Beal - Banton
SF OG - Champagnie
PF Precious - Boucher
C Ayton - Precious

I might do this trade, without trading for Beal. You could probably move Crowder for a salary dump and a pick or two.

Beal is a poor defending volume chucker. Don't want. Would rather trade Crowder for Hachimura or Avdija, keep building on vision 69. Could even try trading him to Brooklyn and see if they'll part with Kessler Edwards.

That way you end up with

Guards: FVV, Flynn, Banton
Wings: GTJ, OG, Barnes, w/e you get for crowder,
Big Men: Ayton, Precious, Boucher

Our depth still sucks so this is still a rebuilding team.

[Steelo Green]

Raptors fans didn’t learn that regular season wins mean little in the playoffs after the Demar and Kyle debacles.

Look at Phoenix.

Regular season wins mean little anymore. Boston would wipe the floor with us.

[KrazyP]

That’s exactly it. 32 year old Pascal won’t have the same athleticism he has now. Which is a huge part of his game.

He can’t shoot so what exactly will he be when he loses even half a step? Let’s even bring it down to 30-31 for the adverse.

The goal is to win a title. Not be competitive.

Our best player (top 20 in the NBA?) wont be in his prime 5 years from now so we should panac and trade him now. How many teams actually run their teams like this?

5 years is an eternity in the NBA. A LOT can happen in that time period.

I wouldnt be opposed to flipping Siakam for young assets if those assets can be packaged for a young star like Shai Gilgeous Alexander. But in the absense of such a deal being available, theres no reason to be in knee jerk trade Siakam mode. Theres ample time to evaluate, assess and adjust.

[Psubs]

That’s exactly it. 32 year old Pascal won’t have the same athleticism he has now. Which is a huge part of his game.

He can’t shoot so what exactly will he be when he loses even half a step? Let’s even bring it down to 30-31 for the adverse.

The goal is to win a title. Not be competitive.

Our best player (top 20 in the NBA?) wont be in his prime 5 years from now so we should panac and trade him now. How many teams actually run their teams like this?

5 years is an eternity in the NBA. A LOT can happen in that time period.

I wouldnt be opposed to flipping Siakam for young assets if those assets can be packaged for a young star like Shai Gilgeous Alexander. But in the absense of such a deal being available, theres no reason to be in knee jerk trade Siakam mode. Theres ample time to evaluate, assess and adjust.

Booker is a choker and I would trade him and get as many good players and picks as I could get instead of paying him $50 million per year for 4 years.

[DelAbbot]

Siakam for Ayton (S&T) sounds kind of possible and fit for both teams.

[KrazyP]

Raptors fans didn’t learn that regular season wins mean little in the playoffs after the Demar and Kyle debacles.

Look at Phoenix.

Regular season wins mean little anymore. Boston would wipe the floor with us.

And last year you probably would have been saying Phoenix was an example of how to build a contender by tanking. Hot take after hot take, knee jerk reaction after knee jerk reaction.

Certain posters still dont seem to understand that the ride to the 2019 championship actually started in 2013.

Winning culture actually breeds better player development. Better player development helps increase the value of your assets. This in turn actually gives competitive teams the assets necessary to make a big move and still have adequate depth necessary to win.

Exposing guys like Siakam, OG, VanVleet, Powell, etc early to winning and playoff intensity actually turned them into better players and assets. A guy like OG could have easily turned into the next Stanley Johnson in a TWO environment. Powell could have easily bounced out of the NBA. VanVleet probably would have turned into a journeymen instead of an all-star. Even a vet like Kyle Lowry benefited from those "debacles"....he got better as a lead guard every year. All that development was vital to the eventual 2019 championship run.

There is inherent value in being competitive. Ujiri/Webster/Nurse all seem to understand this even though there are many posters on this forum that dont.

[KrazyP]

That’s exactly it. 32 year old Pascal won’t have the same athleticism he has now. Which is a huge part of his game.

He can’t shoot so what exactly will he be when he loses even half a step? Let’s even bring it down to 30-31 for the adverse.

The goal is to win a title. Not be competitive.

Our best player (top 20 in the NBA?) wont be in his prime 5 years from now so we should panac and trade him now. How many teams actually run their teams like this?

5 years is an eternity in the NBA. A LOT can happen in that time period.

I wouldnt be opposed to flipping Siakam for young assets if those assets can be packaged for a young star like Shai Gilgeous Alexander. But in the absense of such a deal being available, theres no reason to be in knee jerk trade Siakam mode. Theres ample time to evaluate, assess and adjust.

Booker is a choker and I would trade him and get as many good players and picks as I could get instead of paying him $50 million per year for 4 years.

The 76ers arent a championship level team and Embiid is now 28 and could get injured at any given moment the way he flops around. Should the 76ers unload for picks as well?

Heck, should every team in the league aside from the 4 left on the table be trading their best players for picks?

[LBJKB24MJ23]

Well even that is a different tune than u were saying. Yeah the Celtics would be favs, definitely, especially with the media perspective. Would any of us be shocked if we won that serie?? I certainly wouldn't.

That Celtics group hasn't done anything the raps haven't done yet, even without Kawhi.

Celtics are much better team overall this year. Raptors are just a team that matches well with them because we have similar player profiles. and when i say they are a much better team - they perform more consistently against all teams unlike the Raptors.

The Celtics' two best players are 24 and 25. Right at the beginning of their primes. they are just getting started.

Considering the Raptors faced Tatum and Brown prior to their primes and lost, I don't need to read into the media that the celtics are favorites. and they are extremely well coached. I'm surprised how well Ime Udoka has adjusted and transitioned from Brad Stevens, who also coached the Celtics well in years past.

Barnes is the deciding factor going forward. if he can't shoot, Raptors ceiling not that much higher. if he can draw fouls, shoot/score at will, take the Raptors above the Celtics (along with Siakam, Precious OG and FVV)

That's the thing though, they aren't a much better team this year. They only won 3 more games and their best players played a lot more games than our best players. A LOT more. We also played a 20 year old rookie 35 minutes a night. Scottie hasn't even scratched the surface of what he can do. He's going to improve a lot more than anyone on the Celtics.

In the first couple of months the Celtics were borderline unwatchable. Tatum and Brown were playing way too much hero ball. Their offense had zero flow. They got that sorted out because they had to. If they didn't they would have been in the play-in. But that ability to get back to that brand of basketball has appeared at times in the playoffs and luckily for them the shorthanded Bucks weren't able to capitalize. The NBA is wide open now. I can't recall a time where it was this wide open. You just had the Mavs beat the Suns, Golden State has advanced to the WCF after missing the playoffs last year. Celtics were awful for a third of the year and the Heat got swept in embarrassing fashion by the Bucks last year. And yet these are the final four teams. No one had these teams in the final four at the beginning of the year. No one.

In 2020 the Celtics had Kemba Walker who averaged 20/5/4 in the playoffs that year and they still went 7 games with us despite Pascal having his struggles in the bubble and us trotting out a couple past their prime players in Ibaka and Gasol. Gasol is now retired and Ibaka doesn't play.

You also need to consider that the Celtics would've lost against the Bucks if Middleton played. They barely squeaked past them. What happened when the Sixers played without Simmons two years ago? They got bounced in the first round. What happened when the Celtics played without Brown last year? They got bounced in the first round. And yet this Bucks team took the Celtics to 7 without Middleton. I'm not saying we would beat the Celtics or that we would be favourites against them but if both teams are healthy we likely give them a good series just like we did 18 months ago. Tatum and Brown have improved but so has OG, Fred, Pascal.

i honestly think you're doing the Bucks a diservice by saying that the Celtics barely beat them (because the reasoning is that the Celtics aren't good... which isn't true). Bucks have had the best defense so far in the playoffs based on defensive rating. I would go and say that Raptors would have lost to the Bucks even if they didn't have Middleton.

Raptors struggle mightly in the playoffs because they can not efficiently and consistenly get their office going at all.

Celtics have much better half court execution than than the Raptors.

even if you don't think the Boston is that much better than the Raptors, they still are better, this year. even if we gave them a good series. and i already said that the Raptors would be a good matchup for them.

would definitely change the narrative if the Celtics somehow won the championship this year though.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

Siakam for Ayton (S&T) sounds kind of possible and fit for both teams.

eww

[Steelo Green]

Raptors fans didn’t learn that regular season wins mean little in the playoffs after the Demar and Kyle debacles.

Look at Phoenix.

Regular season wins mean little anymore. Boston would wipe the floor with us.

And last year you probably would have been saying Phoenix was an example of how to build a contender by tanking. Hot take after hot take, knee jerk reaction after knee jerk reaction.

Certain posters still dont seem to understand that the ride to the 2019 championship actually started in 2013.

Winning culture actually breeds better player development. Better player development helps increase the value of your assets. This in turn actually gives competitive teams the assets necessary to make a big move and still have adequate depth necessary to win.

Exposing guys like Siakam, OG, VanVleet, Powell, etc early actually turned them into better players and assets. A guy like OG could have easily turned into the next Stanley Johnson in a TWO environment. Powell could have easily bounced out of the NBA. VanVleet probably would have turned into a journeymen instead of an all-star. Even a vet like Kyle Lowry benefited from those "debacles"....he got better as a lead guard every year. All that development was vital to the eventual 2019 championship run.

There is inherent value in being competitive. Ujiri/Webster/Nurse all seem to understand this even though there are many posters on this forum that dont.

Most posters who actually realize what is going on know that Masai is thanking the stars Zaza hurt Kawhi otherwise it would have been Pascal, Jak, Demar, Fred, 3 first founders and more for Kawhi.

[Los_29]

Celtics are much better team overall this year. Raptors are just a team that matches well with them because we have similar player profiles. and when i say they are a much better team - they perform more consistently against all teams unlike the Raptors.

The Celtics' two best players are 24 and 25. Right at the beginning of their primes. they are just getting started.

Considering the Raptors faced Tatum and Brown prior to their primes and lost, I don't need to read into the media that the celtics are favorites. and they are extremely well coached. I'm surprised how well Ime Udoka has adjusted and transitioned from Brad Stevens, who also coached the Celtics well in years past.

Barnes is the deciding factor going forward. if he can't shoot, Raptors ceiling not that much higher. if he can draw fouls, shoot/score at will, take the Raptors above the Celtics (along with Siakam, Precious OG and FVV)

That's the thing though, they aren't a much better team this year. They only won 3 more games and their best players played a lot more games than our best players. A LOT more. We also played a 20 year old rookie 35 minutes a night. Scottie hasn't even scratched the surface of what he can do. He's going to improve a lot more than anyone on the Celtics.

In the first couple of months the Celtics were borderline unwatchable. Tatum and Brown were playing way too much hero ball. Their offense had zero flow. They got that sorted out because they had to. If they didn't they would have been in the play-in. But that ability to get back to that brand of basketball has appeared at times in the playoffs and luckily for them the shorthanded Bucks weren't able to capitalize. The NBA is wide open now. I can't recall a time where it was this wide open. You just had the Mavs beat the Suns, Golden State has advanced to the WCF after missing the playoffs last year. Celtics were awful for a third of the year and the Heat got swept in embarrassing fashion by the Bucks last year. And yet these are the final four teams. No one had these teams in the final four at the beginning of the year. No one.

In 2020 the Celtics had Kemba Walker who averaged 20/5/4 in the playoffs that year and they still went 7 games with us despite Pascal having his struggles in the bubble and us trotting out a couple past their prime players in Ibaka and Gasol. Gasol is now retired and Ibaka doesn't play.

You also need to consider that the Celtics would've lost against the Bucks if Middleton played. They barely squeaked past them. What happened when the Sixers played without Simmons two years ago? They got bounced in the first round. What happened when the Celtics played without Brown last year? They got bounced in the first round. And yet this Bucks team took the Celtics to 7 without Middleton. I'm not saying we would beat the Celtics or that we would be favourites against them but if both teams are healthy we likely give them a good series just like we did 18 months ago. Tatum and Brown have improved but so has OG, Fred, Pascal.

i honestly think you're doing the Bucks a diservice by saying that the Celtics barely beat them (because the reasoning is that the Celtics aren't good... which isn't true). Bucks have had the best defense so far in the playoffs based on defensive rating. I would go and say that Raptors would have lost to the Bucks even if they didn't have Middleton.

Raptors struggle mightly in the playoffs because they can not efficiently and consistenly get their office going at all.

Celtics have much better half court execution than than the Raptors.

even if you don't think the Boston is that much better than the Raptors, they still are better, this year. even if we gave them a good series. and i already said that the Raptors would be a good matchup for them.

would definitely change the narrative if the Celtics somehow won the championship this year though.

I’m not doing any team a disservice. I’m just stating facts. Bucks were without their second best player. With Middleton they beat the Celtics. I don’t think anyone would disagree with this. We’re not talking about a guy like Alex Caruso or Lonzo Ball. We are talking about a 3 time all-star and NBA champion who averaged a ridiculous 24/8/6 in the playoffs last year.

I’m also not saying the Celtics aren’t a good team. They are but the reality is they caught a huge break just like the Bucks and Suns did last year, how we did in 2019 etc.

You have no idea if this team struggles offensively in the playoffs because we were never healthy. Fred wasn’t healthy from day 1, Scottie missed three games, GTJ was sick for the opening two games. Celtics got steamrolled by the Nets in 5 games last year. Why do you think that is? It’s because their 2nd best player was hurt. I watched that series and the Celtics looked absolutely awful. But you can’t draw any conclusions from it because like us, they were without some very important pieces.

And aren’t we discussing how the Raptors aren’t that far behind the Celtics? This isn’t a discussion about half court offense.

And yes the Celtics are better. Three wins better while being much healthier throughout the year. They do have more depth though and I believe as a result are better built for the playoffs. But considering they were in it to win it all year and we were in a transition year that’s to be expected. I also see no reason why Scottie, Precious and Gary Trent Jr can’t make improvements to their game next year. Who is improving for the Celtics? I’m a huge Grant Williams fan but coming out of the draft he was seen as an NBA ready but low upside player. They’ll likely improve just from having more experience with each other but I don’t see any of their guys making the kind of leaps that Scottie will be making and Precious. That alone will help close the gap.

There is a lot of recency bias here. Celtics are a great team but make no mistake about it, the Celtics would be in Cancun right now if Middleton was healthy.