Rico Hines Private Runs

[NoBias]

Name 20 players better than Pascal.

Just off the top of my head

KD, Giannis, Steph, LBJ, Jokic, Luka, Morant, Embiid, Tatum, Booker, Butler, Lillard, Kyrie, CP3, Harden, Trae Young, Paul George, Jaylen Brown,

and then we have the debatable players like Zion (if he's healthy he's better) Brandon Ingram, KAT, DeMar, LaVine, Beal, Donovan Mitchell

I think there are more debatable players on that list than you think.

Butler is just getting old and can’t sustain his ceiling for longer than a week or two anymore—he can’t carry a team for an entire season. Jaylen Brown has never had to deal with being the guy that defences are created to stop and honestly doesn’t have the skill set to be that guy. I think he’s an awesome one on one scorer in particular situations, and can obviously shoot better than Siakam but you can’t give him the keys to the offence and get success out of him, considering that his handle is still pretty weak and he can’t drive left at all. He’s also not a tremendous finisher which is why Golden State was able to defend Boston the way they did in the finals.

In essence, if you asked me to trade Siakam for any of these players straight up then I’m definitely saying no to Booker, Butler and Jaylen Brown. I’m thinking hard about Dame but probably still no because 6’2 combo guards ain’t getting it done unless you’re as generational as Steph is (which Dame is not, despite the clutch heroics and logo threes). I’m thinking really hard about Paul George, though. Really hard.

Jaylen Brown was the best player on the Celtics with a positive +/- in the finals, it's not fair his co-star decided to have a collapse in the finals. He can pretty much do it all sans playmaking for others.

Dame can win you playoff series himself as he's shown before. Yes he's not the greatest defender, but he's a 3 level scorer that attracts multiple defenders and is guarded SOMEWHAT like Steph Curry, his gravity is insane. In the playoffs, that matters. He's never had a reliable 1st or second option.

Jimmy Butler just showed why he's an absolute maestro, this playoffs. In my opinion, he was a top 3 performer. Pascal will more than likely never have a playoffs showing like that (I hope I'm wrong)

[Joker]

Pascal is not a top 15-20 player... he's good though!

Name 20 players better than Pascal.

Just off the top of my head

KD, Giannis, Steph, LBJ, Jokic, Luka, Morant, Embiid, Tatum, Booker, Butler, Lillard, Kyrie, CP3, Harden, Trae Young, Paul George, Jaylen Brown,

and then we have the debatable players like Zion (if he's healthy he's better) Brandon Ingram, KAT, DeMar, LaVine, Beal, Donovan Mitchell

Some of these players may have more offensive polish than Siakam, but when you also factor in defence, rebounding, playmaking, hustle plays, offensive/defensive versatility due to size, personality/leadership qualities/teammate quality, I'm taking Siakam over a number of these guys 10 times out of 10.

Siakam >>> some scorer under 6'7" who can give you 45 on a given night, but doesn't provide rebounding, versatility, defence, or intangibles.

[TheDunc]

It's insane how people go to disrespect so quick when their opinion isn't being shared and lack having reading skills.

The word DEBATABLE means what? Did I say they're better? Did I say that those guys were in the top 20 above Siakam? No, i was replying to someone where they said Siakam is top 20 when I gave 20 that're better.

Also, if you think Brandon Ingram is empty calories then you don't watch basketball.

Get the homerism out of you, It's okay that a Raptor isn't in the top 20 you shmuck.

So wait Siakam who was named 3rd team all NBA this year and was 2nd team all nba just a few years ago isnt a top 20 player? how does that work?

you named some great players but the problem is only about half of them play both sides of the floor....

Because games played and injuries. Jimmy Butler was not on an all NBA team, neither was Kawhi and PG. Kawhi and Butler being hurt surely had Siakam propel into that 3rd and final slot.

3 all nba teams is 15 players so if u want to add kawhi in there then go for it but Siakam is surely a top 20 player when you factor in both sides of the ball

[Joker]

So wait Siakam who was named 3rd team all NBA this year and was 2nd team all nba just a few years ago isnt a top 20 player? how does that work?

you named some great players but the problem is only about half of them play both sides of the floor....

Because games played and injuries. Jimmy Butler was not on an all NBA team, neither was Kawhi and PG. Kawhi and Butler being hurt surely had Siakam propel into that 3rd and final slot.

3 all nba teams is 15 players so if u want to add kawhi in there then go for it but Siakam is surely a top 20 player when you factor in both sides of the ball

On a general sidenote, durability is a factor when comparing players. I don't get how it's dismissed or excused so readily. It's one thing if a player has one unlucky injury that they can return 100% from, but if they're injured year-in, year-out, you have to factor that in. Top-20 caliber players who can only play 50 games a year, then break down by game 5 of the first round of the playoffs.

We should assess players with one another based on what they actually are, not hypothetical idealized versions of what they are.

Luck factors in, but being able to play through injury, having the body control/balance/strength/coordination to limit or avoid injuries --- these are abilities/talents/skills too.

[pingpongrac]

only 4 months ago, this forum was ready to get rid of him after Pascal scored 0 points in the 2nd half of game 3 against Philly.
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=2185854&hilit

Good lord. Sometimes I forget how terrible this board can be at times. Siakam literally had one bad game because of a terrible second half (in a game where FVV was struggling and Scottie was out not to mention) and people were seriously calling him damaged goods and bringing up a swap with Philly for Harris? Outside of G3, Siakam's worst performance of the series was a 20/10/5 night in G2 and he averaged 23/7/6 on 56 TS% for the series lol. Yeah, I get it, he crapped the bed in the second half of G3...but he absolutely carried us in both G4 and G5 despite having absolutely no spacing; Siakam averaged 29/9/6 and went 3/8 (38%) on 3FGA in those 2 games while the rest of the team went 13/57 on 3FGA (23%), yet we still walked away with a couple wins.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using RealGM mobile app

[vulture]

only 4 months ago, this forum was ready to get rid of him after Pascal scored 0 points in the 2nd half of game 3 against Philly.
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=2185854&hilit

Good lord. Sometimes I forget how terrible this board can be at times. Siakam literally had one bad game because of a terrible second half (in a game where FVV was struggling and Scottie was out not to mention) and people were seriously calling him damaged goods and bringing up a swap with Philly for Harris? Outside of G3, Siakam's worst performance of the series was a 20/10/5 night in G2 and he averaged 23/7/6 on 56 TS% for the series lol. Yeah, I get it, he crapped the bed in the second half of G3...but he absolutely carried us in both G4 and G5 despite having absolutely no spacing; Siakam averaged 29/9/6 and went 3/8 (38%) on 3FGA in those 2 games while the rest of the team went 13/57 on 3FGA (23%), yet we still walked away with a couple wins.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using RealGM mobile app

to be fair he was scared to shoot and Tobias played him physically. once they were down 3-0 there was no pressure and he played well.
I'm a pascal supporter and that was really tough to watch.

[NoBias]

So wait Siakam who was named 3rd team all NBA this year and was 2nd team all nba just a few years ago isnt a top 20 player? how does that work?

you named some great players but the problem is only about half of them play both sides of the floor....

Because games played and injuries. Jimmy Butler was not on an all NBA team, neither was Kawhi and PG. Kawhi and Butler being hurt surely had Siakam propel into that 3rd and final slot.

3 all nba teams is 15 players so if u want to add kawhi in there then go for it but Siakam is surely a top 20 player when you factor in both sides of the ball

I don't think being a good two way player is better than being an offensive superstar. There are maybe two/three? NBA superstars who are two way players lol. Scoring is really underrated here. It's not like I'm talking about complete defensive liabilities, ala Lou Williams or Jamal Crawford. Only one who really fits that description is Trae Young? But he does stuff on offense that is remarkable.

[NoBias]

Because games played and injuries. Jimmy Butler was not on an all NBA team, neither was Kawhi and PG. Kawhi and Butler being hurt surely had Siakam propel into that 3rd and final slot.

3 all nba teams is 15 players so if u want to add kawhi in there then go for it but Siakam is surely a top 20 player when you factor in both sides of the ball

On a general sidenote, durability is a factor when comparing players. I don't get how it's dismissed or excused so readily. It's one thing if a player has one unlucky injury that they can return 100% from, but if they're injured year-in, year-out, you have to factor that in. Top-20 caliber players who can only play 50 games a year, then break down by game 5 of the first round of the playoffs.

We should assess players with one another based on what they actually are, not hypothetical idealized versions of what they are.

Luck factors in, but being able to play through injury, having the body control/balance/strength/coordination to limit or avoid injuries --- these are abilities/talents/skills too.

You are right in terms of availability being the best ability. HOWEVER, we saw what a groin injury did to Pascal, and what a shoulder injury did to him. This is the first bounce back year he's had since the first half of 2020. (Second half he fell off)

[lobosloboslobos]

Name 20 players better than Pascal.

Just off the top of my head

KD, Giannis, Steph, LBJ, Jokic, Luka, Morant, Embiid, Tatum, Booker, Butler, Lillard, Kyrie, CP3, Harden, Trae Young, Paul George, Jaylen Brown,

and then we have the debatable players like Zion (if he's healthy he's better) Brandon Ingram, KAT, DeMar, LaVine, Beal, Donovan Mitchell

Some of these players may have more offensive polish than Siakam, but when you also factor in defence, rebounding, playmaking, hustle plays, offensive/defensive versatility due to size, personality/leadership qualities/teammate quality, I'm taking Siakam over a number of these guys 10 times out of 10.

Siakam >>> some scorer under 6'7" who can give you 45 on a given night, but doesn't provide rebounding, versatility, defence, or intangibles.

yeah maybe others will disagree but i'm also not trading prime Siakim for ancient CP3 or crazy Kyrie.

and certainly not for any of those other debatable guys. because for one thing winning matters. Ingram, KAT, post-Raptors Demar, and Levine have played 5 career playoff series in 28 seasons between them and lost them all. even adding in all of Demar's career plus Donovan Mitchell and Beal they have still only reached the semi-finals in 3 out of 54 season played between them. and they all lost those too. team team team yada yada yda but that surely has to count for something considering people are saying that those guys are debatably better than our all-nba guy who has won 29 playoff games in his 6 seasons and is 6-4 in playoff series.

[Tha Cynic]

Pascal is not a top 15-20 player... he's good though!

Name 20 players better than Pascal.

Just off the top of my head

KD, Giannis, Steph, LBJ, Jokic, Luka, Morant, Embiid, Tatum, Booker, Butler, Lillard, Kyrie, CP3, Harden, Trae Young, Paul George, Jaylen Brown,

and then we have the debatable players like Zion (if he's healthy he's better) Brandon Ingram, KAT, DeMar, LaVine, Beal, Donovan Mitchell

I would take Siakam's overall game and personality impact over Booker, Lillard, Jaylen Brown, Paul George, Ingram, KAT, DeMar Derozan, Lavine.

The ones in that list I would debate are Young and Butler as Butler can really turn it on as the pressure rises. Trae Young's overall game is not as strong as Siakam but his offense can be a huge catalyst for his team when he's on and it can help fuel his team like not many others in the league. I keep hearing about Brown but he's clearly at best the second best player on his team and hasn't consistently shown that he can be a catalyst on his team. You make Siakam the second best player on his team and he will dominate more defensively which he is actually better at than offense.

I don't think that Michell and Beal are even worth putting on this list. They're not in the same tier as Siakam.

Personally, I think Siakam is closer to a top 10 player in the league than top 20. His defensive impact is actually even higher than his offensive when he turns it on.

[NoBias]

Just off the top of my head

KD, Giannis, Steph, LBJ, Jokic, Luka, Morant, Embiid, Tatum, Booker, Butler, Lillard, Kyrie, CP3, Harden, Trae Young, Paul George, Jaylen Brown,

and then we have the debatable players like Zion (if he's healthy he's better) Brandon Ingram, KAT, DeMar, LaVine, Beal, Donovan Mitchell

Some of these players may have more offensive polish than Siakam, but when you also factor in defence, rebounding, playmaking, hustle plays, offensive/defensive versatility due to size, personality/leadership qualities/teammate quality, I'm taking Siakam over a number of these guys 10 times out of 10.

Siakam >>> some scorer under 6'7" who can give you 45 on a given night, but doesn't provide rebounding, versatility, defence, or intangibles.

yeah maybe others will disagree but i'm also not trading prime Siakim for ancient CP3 or crazy Kyrie.

and certainly not for any of those other debatable guys. because for one thing winning matters. Ingram, KAT, post-Raptors Demar, and Levine have played 5 career playoff series in 28 seasons between them and lost them all. even adding in all of Demar's career plus Donovan Mitchell and Beal they have still only reached the semi-finals in 3 out of 54 season played between them. and they all lost those too. team team team yada yada yda but that surely has to count for something considering people are saying that those guys are debatably better than our all-nba guy who has won 29 playoff games in his 6 seasons.

I can respect your opinion on the debatable section because i've seen arguments for both sides. However, the topic isn't necessarily trading Siakam for Cp3 or Kyrie. (Which I wouldn't do on the Raptors end.) CP3 is one of the best floor raisers in the NBA and Kyrie when he isn't going full flat earth mode is an offensive player we've never seen before at that height.

[mulamutti]

Name 20 players better than Pascal.

Just off the top of my head

KD, Giannis, Steph, LBJ, Jokic, Luka, Morant, Embiid, Tatum, Booker, Butler, Lillard, Kyrie, CP3, Harden, Trae Young, Paul George, Jaylen Brown,

and then we have the debatable players like Zion (if he's healthy he's better) Brandon Ingram, KAT, DeMar, LaVine, Beal, Donovan Mitchell

I would take Siakam's overall game and personality impact over Booker, Lillard, Jaylen Brown, Paul George, Ingram, KAT, DeMar Derozan, Lavine. The ones in that list I would debate are Young and Butler as Butler can really turn it on as the pressure rises. Trae Young's overall game is not as strong as Siakam but his offense can be a huge catalyst for his team when he's on and it can help fuel his team like not many others in the league. I keep hearing about Brown but he's clearly at best the second best player on his team and hasn't consistently shown that he can be a catalyst on his team.

I don't think that Michell and Beal are even worth putting on this list. They're not in the same tier as Siakam.

Personally, I think Siakam is closer to a top 10 player in the league than top 20. His defensive impact is actually even higher than his offensive when he turns it on.

Ya I agree. I don’t know why, but Pascal is hugely underrated. He’s all nba, and still climbing. He should have been on 2nd team last season, definitely ahead of demar.

[NoBias]

Just off the top of my head

KD, Giannis, Steph, LBJ, Jokic, Luka, Morant, Embiid, Tatum, Booker, Butler, Lillard, Kyrie, CP3, Harden, Trae Young, Paul George, Jaylen Brown,

and then we have the debatable players like Zion (if he's healthy he's better) Brandon Ingram, KAT, DeMar, LaVine, Beal, Donovan Mitchell

I would take Siakam's overall game and personality impact over Booker, Lillard, Jaylen Brown, Paul George, Ingram, KAT, DeMar Derozan, Lavine. The ones in that list I would debate are Young and Butler as Butler can really turn it on as the pressure rises. Trae Young's overall game is not as strong as Siakam but his offense can be a huge catalyst for his team when he's on and it can help fuel his team like not many others in the league. I keep hearing about Brown but he's clearly at best the second best player on his team and hasn't consistently shown that he can be a catalyst on his team.

I don't think that Michell and Beal are even worth putting on this list. They're not in the same tier as Siakam.

Personally, I think Siakam is closer to a top 10 player in the league than top 20. His defensive impact is actually even higher than his offensive when he turns it on.

Ya I agree. I don’t know why, but Pascal is hugely underrated. He’s all nba, and still climbing. He should have been on 2nd team last season, definitely ahead of demar.

You're underrating DeMar's regular season last year. He was exceptional.

[Madhouse]

Just off the top of my head

KD, Giannis, Steph, LBJ, Jokic, Luka, Morant, Embiid, Tatum, Booker, Butler, Lillard, Kyrie, CP3, Harden, Trae Young, Paul George, Jaylen Brown,

and then we have the debatable players like Zion (if he's healthy he's better) Brandon Ingram, KAT, DeMar, LaVine, Beal, Donovan Mitchell

I would take Siakam's overall game and personality impact over Booker, Lillard, Jaylen Brown, Paul George, Ingram, KAT, DeMar Derozan, Lavine. The ones in that list I would debate are Young and Butler as Butler can really turn it on as the pressure rises. Trae Young's overall game is not as strong as Siakam but his offense can be a huge catalyst for his team when he's on and it can help fuel his team like not many others in the league. I keep hearing about Brown but he's clearly at best the second best player on his team and hasn't consistently shown that he can be a catalyst on his team.

I don't think that Michell and Beal are even worth putting on this list. They're not in the same tier as Siakam.

Personally, I think Siakam is closer to a top 10 player in the league than top 20. His defensive impact is actually even higher than his offensive when he turns it on.

Ya I agree. I don’t know why, but Pascal is hugely underrated. He’s all nba, and still climbing. He should have been on 2nd team last season, definitely ahead of demar.

Nah, Demar was absolutely terrific.

[HumbleRen]

PG moves like a freak lol. Dude is 6'9 and moves with a fluidity that none of our guards have.

You can see the difference on how light Pascal/PG are on their feet compared to Scottie or OG.

He’s fun to watch. I remember being in awe when he was single handedly lighting us up in the playoffs with that sad Pacers squad. It was like 2 vs 1 against Kyle and Demar

PG is literally the perfect nba build and player when it comes to just overall fluidity/handles at that height

For real, such a beautiful looking game.

[TheDunc]

Because games played and injuries. Jimmy Butler was not on an all NBA team, neither was Kawhi and PG. Kawhi and Butler being hurt surely had Siakam propel into that 3rd and final slot.

3 all nba teams is 15 players so if u want to add kawhi in there then go for it but Siakam is surely a top 20 player when you factor in both sides of the ball

I don't think being a good two way player is better than being an offensive superstar. There are maybe two/three? NBA superstars who are two way players lol. Scoring is really underrated here. It's not like I'm talking about complete defensive liabilities, ala Lou Williams or Jamal Crawford. Only one who really fits that description is Trae Young? But he does stuff on offense that is remarkable.

You calling Siakam a "good two way player" is underselling him just to fit your narative. The guy can drop 25/10 and 5 pretty easily along with great defense, Im not saying Siakam is top 10 but to think hes not top 20 makes me question your overall bball iq.

[HumbleRen]

The issue with Siakam is that he doesn't have another gear to tap into in the playoffs. He plays his ass off in the regular season which is great but that's basically him in playoff mode for the entire regular season.

Guys like Butler kinda coast and turn it up another level in the playoffs.

[NoBias]

3 all nba teams is 15 players so if u want to add kawhi in there then go for it but Siakam is surely a top 20 player when you factor in both sides of the ball

I don't think being a good two way player is better than being an offensive superstar. There are maybe two/three? NBA superstars who are two way players lol. Scoring is really underrated here. It's not like I'm talking about complete defensive liabilities, ala Lou Williams or Jamal Crawford. Only one who really fits that description is Trae Young? But he does stuff on offense that is remarkable.

You calling Siakam a "good two way player" is underselling him just to fit your narative. The guy can drop 25/10 and 5 pretty easily along with great defense, Im not saying Siakam is top 10 but to think hes not top 20 makes me question your overall bball iq.

But you're using hypotheticals to fit yours. He is not a 25,10,5 player, prime LeBron wasn't even that. Could he get it in a game? Sure, but let's not overrate him now. He's a good defensive player and a good offensive player.. thus a good two way player. Is he a great two way player? No, thats Kawhi, Embiid, Giannis. Feel free to put Siakam in that tier, but he isn't.

[Agimat]

Siakiam is vastly underappreciated player in the league! His performance last season molded himself into a true "go-to" player.

[Dalek]

The issue with Siakam is that he doesn't have another gear to tap into in the playoffs. He plays his ass off in the regular season which is great but that's basically him in playoff mode for the entire regular season.

Guys like Butler kinda coast and turn it up another level in the playoffs.

Butler was great last post season at age 32 but beyond that he is a 20-22 PPG scorer with good defense a d no viable 3 pt shot.

Siakam is only 27 and it is his 3rd season in a primary role. Last year he played well, and I think there is no reason he can't get to Butler's level or beyond.

Siakam in 5 years could be MVP level.