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Scottie Barnes was enthralling last year. He quite obviously lived up to and surpassed expectations as a top 5 pick. I completely understand why fans have locked their hopes on him as the future of the franchise.

But is it crazy to put Precious or Banton in basically the same tier as Scottie? Would we be thinking about them differently had they been picked higher???

Precious, Banton, and Scottie are all...

• Very, very young and inexperienced
• Long
• Mobile
• Disruptive defenders
• Raw offensively
• Contributing now, despite clear weaknesses
• Unselfish
• Creative offensively, and occasionally brilliant
• Developing as shooters

Scottie is the best scorer among the three. But Precious is the best defender, rebounder, 3-point shooter, and rim-runner. Banton is the best ball-handler and passer, and is so unique for his size as a PG.

Doesn't draft position affect our expectations of them and their development, rather than purely what we're seeing on the court? Can you imagine a world where, say, Precious was picked #4 and Scottie was picked #20? Would we be demanding more playing time for Precious? Demanding he start?

If Banton was a top 10 pick, maybe we'd be looking at him as a modern Shaun Livington (#4 in 2004), except without the devastating injuries.

If Precious was a top 10 pick, maybe we'd be looking at him as a raw version of the new PF/C archetype: defends Cs, can switch onto guards, dunks out of the pick-and-roll, shoots threes out of the pick-and-pop, spots up from three, and attacks the rim off the dribble from the perimeter.

Yes it's crazy lol.

Banton has made ton of strides but the jury is still out on him playing legitimate back up PG minutes with us.

Precious while is amazing on defence, is still one of the least efficient centers in nba history.

They're not in the same tier as Barnes and never will be but that's okay.

Scottie is 1st in win shares from his draft class.
Precious is 17th in win shares from his draft class.
Banton is T28th in win shares from his draft class.

OakleyDokely wrote:Scottie is 1st in win shares from his draft class.
Precious is 17th in win shares from his draft class.
Banton is T28th in win shares from his draft class.

Win shares is heavily impacted by playing time. You play more, you get more win shares.

HumbleRen wrote:Precious while is amazing on defence, is still one of the least efficient centers in nba history.

Precious scored efficiently the second half of the season. He was very inefficient the first half, but the Raptors were still effective with him as starting center and no Siakam.

FVV-Trent-OG-Barnes-Precious 109.0/100.6/+8.4 in 158 minutes (mostly against starters)

I get that you want them to be viewed with a different perspective but they're definitely not on Scottie's level as a prospect and it's not based on where each of them were selected respectively. Scottie is just clearly a more talented prospect with better feel for the game and rare physical traits. Not to mention he's younger than either of them and has had multiple much better games than either of them where he's looked like he is entirely taking over for periods of a game.

Also thinking a franchise (or fanbase) is judging their players based on draft position who's 2 best players are a guy who we drafted at the end of the 1st round (who most analysts & fans thought was too early at the time) in Siakam & an undrafted player in Fred really doesn't hold water. Draft position won't/doesn't hold back actual great players for long see Jokic.

Precious & Dalano have had their MOMENTS but they'll need to show a lot more consistency (as Pascal & Fred had to), to change the way people look at them as a players and quite frankly I wouldn't be that thrilled if I did view them through that lens (as top 10 picks), in fact it's the opposite, it's because they weren't that I'm more excited that they COULD & look like they'll end up proving to be better than their draft position.

Los Soles wrote:

OakleyDokely wrote:Scottie is 1st in win shares from his draft class.
Precious is 17th in win shares from his draft class.
Banton is T28th in win shares from his draft class.

Win shares is heavily impacted by playing time. You play more, you get more win shares.

If anybody makes you earn minutes by playing hard and playing defence it’s nurse. Those were earned.

If you’re asking are we jaded by what we see and could those two be better than Barnes? Yes, but no they won’t be.

HumbleRen wrote:Yes it's crazy lol.

Banton has made ton of strides but the jury is still out on him playing legitimate back up PG minutes with us.

Precious while is amazing on defence, is still one of the least efficient centers in nba history.

They're not in the same tier as Barnes and never will be but that's okay.

Not trying to be a jerk, but is this actually true? I feel like my eye test can name much worse offensive centers in NBA history?

Achiuwa was projected in the lottery (or top 10, I forgot), he dropped to the Heats.

Banton was older prospect, and he declared very late. Webster said he would be 1st round pick if he declared the year after with more exposure to teams.

Los Soles wrote:

OakleyDokely wrote:Scottie is 1st in win shares from his draft class.
Precious is 17th in win shares from his draft class.
Banton is T28th in win shares from his draft class.

Win shares is heavily impacted by playing time. You play more, you get more win shares.

Yeah, and there's a reason why Banton played fewer minutes and Barned played more.

InfraRedshaw wrote:

HumbleRen wrote:Yes it's crazy lol.

Banton has made ton of strides but the jury is still out on him playing legitimate back up PG minutes with us.

Precious while is amazing on defence, is still one of the least efficient centers in nba history.

They're not in the same tier as Barnes and never will be but that's okay.

Not trying to be a jerk, but is this actually true? I feel like my eye test can name much worse offensive centers in NBA history?

it's hyperbole and completely fails to reflect the growth in precious' offensive game in his first and only season playing significant NBA minutes.

pre-all-star game his shooting splits were abysmal: 42/30/58 but after the break he made major strides, improving to 46/39/62 and improving his TS% from .467 to .552, which is basically league average

he's young and obviously still raw but also obviously improving. saying stuff like he's "still one of the least efficient centers in nba history" is just straight up hating

to the OP's point I do think draft spot impacts expectations and perceptions a lot, but scottie is still in a league of his own. at least at present. if either Precious or Banton could become a reliable 39% 3 point shooter then they would turn into extremely valuable players given their other significant strengths.

lobosloboslobos wrote:pre-all-star game his shooting splits were abysmal: 42/30/58 but after the break he made major strides, improving to 46/39/62 and improving his TS% from .467 to .552, which is basically league average

55.2 is only league average when you consider other positions. Avg TS for centers are much higher. His TS is cratered by his poor FT% AND finishing around the rim.

Godaddycurse wrote:

lobosloboslobos wrote:pre-all-star game his shooting splits were abysmal: 42/30/58 but after the break he made major strides, improving to 46/39/62 and improving his TS% from .467 to .552, which is basically league average

55.2 is only league average when you consider other positions. Avg TS for centers are much higher. His TS is cratered by his poor FT% AND finishing around the rim.

Precious is more of a wing on offense than a traditional big though. He's an off the dribble player who shoots 3s. These type of guys are going to have much lower efficiency on average than bigs who just shoot layouts, dunks and the occasional wide open 3.

Banton is turning 23 soon, not accurate to "very, very young" description. Edit: Precious is already 23 years old too. They're youngish, but are a full two years ahead of Scottie.

They all still have lots of work to do but I agree they look like legit prospects. If Boucher can keep improving in his mid-twenties so can these other guys.

InfraRedshaw wrote:

HumbleRen wrote:Yes it's crazy lol.

Banton has made ton of strides but the jury is still out on him playing legitimate back up PG minutes with us.

Precious while is amazing on defence, is still one of the least efficient centers in nba history.

They're not in the same tier as Barnes and never will be but that's okay.

Not trying to be a jerk, but is this actually true? I feel like my eye test can name much worse offensive centers in NBA history?

The average true shooting percentage for a center is 61%.

Precious before his 3-point explosion, which I don't think was sustainable at all was 46%, almost 20% below the average.

He's among the worst finishers in the league as his position. For some context at how bad he was, he was shooting 55% at the rim, Westbrook was more efficient at the rim than Precious was.

If he was even league average for a center, he'd be a top 10 center right now due to how elite his defence is.

Los Soles wrote:

HumbleRen wrote:Precious while is amazing on defence, is still one of the least efficient centers in nba history.

Precious scored efficiently the second half of the season. He was very inefficient the first half, but the Raptors were still effective with him as starting center and no Siakam.

FVV-Trent-OG-Barnes-Precious 109.0/100.6/+8.4 in 158 minutes (mostly against starters)

The stats and eye test show Precious brings impact on the defensive side of the ball. We just need to continue to curtail his offensive decision making and have him play within his skillset; he's pushing the limit a bit here in preseason, but one can hope that's just experimenting in preseason. The thing is, if he wants to be a starter, but he's the 5th best option offensively, he can't be having those possessions that Zach Lowe refers to as Precious' adventures.

He can be a very good player, but not sure I ever see him more than an opportunistic scorer when he sees a matchup he can take off the bounce, attack in transition, or attack a closeout or hit a shot. Needs to play that Shawn Marion do everything role. My prediction is that maybe early on he's a little too eager to prove his offensive and overall development and may not be super efficient to start the year, but like last year, will figure out his spots and be a much better player at the tail end of the year for us. Him being so confident and aggressive, while being a double edged sword, is a lot better than an issue of passiveness.

If we're going off of 2k style rating...

Barnes is a 4/4.5 star player; Precious is a 3.5 and Banton is a 3 at best.

These types of threads are reminiscent of Weems, Johnson and Derozan.

Only 1 player of the three is a legit starter in the league.

Barnes was a quality 35mpg starter at age 20.

The other two are 23 and may never get there.

Though they might.

Neither was in fact a top 10 pick. The only thing that matters is, are they outperforming expected results for where they were drafted. If they are, then you've won. Any other comparison is just indulging in mental masturbation.