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Continued from here. viewtopic.php?f=32&t=2260960&start=1980

Scottie's too good to be bad, not worried.

It took Demar until year 5 to reach 20+ points and an All-star appearance. I think we’ll see something similar with Scottie. Not expecting him to win MIP next season or anything.

Spates wrote:

ATLTimekeeper wrote:

Spates wrote:Hey ATL, how are you?

My numbers are from cleaning the glass.

I think it's pretty meaningful. It's not an above replacement stat. When Barnes is on the floor, regardless of the four other teammates, on avg the team's efg% increases by 3. The year prior he was a negative in that regard. -0.8%

It's not a bad thing, but I don't think it contains much to get excited about. Cleaning the glass has Aaron Gordon at 5.6.

This is why I routinely being up context.

Scottie efg% 48.7
Gordon efg% 60.3

You can infer meaning from their usage. Aaron Gordon was the recipient of passes from Jokic, he's a finisher. Scottie was pretty inefficient when it's all said and done but the team is more efficient with his presence. All without being a focal point.

I actually think Aaron Gordon in Denver’s system is a really impactful player. Of course, the ways he and Barnes impact the game is much different, but I wouldn’t necessarily throw out the Gordon number either. He plugs a lot of holes as a connector who can pass, finish, rebound offensively and sometimes knock down a corner three. Perfect fit in Denver. They are noticeably worse on both ends when he’s not on the floor in my opinion.

With respect to Barnes, he has the ball much more often as a creator than Gordon does, so while Gordon is an elite connector, if he was in Barnes’ role here maybe the stats would show something different than what we are seeing. Like ATLTimekeeper said, the hope is that Scottie can produce efficient offence, which I think is more than possible once he gets comfortable leaning on his strengths and develops a decent foul line jumper.

I know there are worries about him developing a jumper, and as far as three point range goes, I agree. Generally speaking, I think being elite from deep is something some guys have and something other guys never will, but as far as a midrange jumper goes, anybody can get quite good there. There’s a long list of guys in Barnes’ size range who developed this in the league. A loooong list. Barnes will get there, which opens up everything for him.

Now, if he ever gets to 36% from deep then watch out.

From last thread:

Has anyone read any of Darko’s stuff? One podcast guest said the offense would probably feature two hubs at the high post, with the initial ball handler passing to the wings and heading to the weak side, and less so dependent on high pick and roll to initiate.
Any of that ring a bell to anyone?

Just gets me thinking that Scottie can thrive both as one of those hubs and as the guy passing off and cutting through (presumably into a side DHO action that could get Scottie downhill or who knows what).

Any insights into how Scottie could look as a ball handler and/or a screener in different Horns actions?

Picking an anomaly to make an argument against a stat shows that someone has already made up their mind and nothing anyone says here will change that lol.

We can play that what if game all day. What if Scottie Barnes played with a bunch of guys who the ball didn't go to die with? What if Scottie Barnes played with guys who could shoot to compliment his passing? What if Scottie Barnes played on a team where he got to play the 4 and was the main option.

Those who have seen good things from Barnes can see why that stat about the team being better with Barnes makes sense. There were further stats that show this, like how much more accurate Barnes' passes are and how much better the team shoots from certain areas from his passes. When you really look deep and use some obvious logic even the advanced stats show that Barnes improved last season and even with poor efficient has been a big contributor to team success. It's just about who's presenting the stats and what their narrative is.

Now what happens when he refuses his offense and gets better at that? Imagine a Scottie Barnes who isn't some raw player with a mediocre jumper and handles. To me it's almost a forgone conclusion that he'll average 20 a game in the next year or two. When he ups his usage, he puts up stats pretty easily.

HiJiNX wrote:

Spates wrote:

ATLTimekeeper wrote:
It's not a bad thing, but I don't think it contains much to get excited about. Cleaning the glass has Aaron Gordon at 5.6.

This is why I routinely being up context.

Scottie efg% 48.7
Gordon efg% 60.3

You can infer meaning from their usage. Aaron Gordon was the recipient of passes from Jokic, he's a finisher. Scottie was pretty inefficient when it's all said and done but the team is more efficient with his presence. All without being a focal point.

I actually think Aaron Gordon in Denver’s system is a really impactful player. Of course, the ways he and Barnes impact the game is much different, but I wouldn’t necessarily throw out the Gordon number either. He plugs a lot of holes as a connector who can pass, finish, rebound offensively and sometimes knock down a corner three. Perfect fit in Denver. They are noticeably worse on both ends when he’s not on the floor in my opinion.

With respect to Barnes, he has the ball much more often as a creator than Gordon does, so while Gordon is an elite connector, if he was in Barnes’ role here maybe the stats would show something different than what we are seeing. Like ATLTimekeeper said, the hope is that Scottie can produce efficient offence, which I think is more than possible once he gets comfortable leaning on his strengths and develops a decent foul line jumper.

I know there are worries about him developing a jumper, and as far as three point range goes, I agree. Generally speaking, I think being elite from deep is something some guys have and something other guys never will, but as far as a midrange jumper goes, anybody can get quite good there. There’s a long list of guys in Barnes’ size range who developed this in the league. A loooong list. Barnes will get there, which opens up everything for him.

Now, if he ever gets to 36% from deep then watch out.

I'm by no means throwing out Gordon's numbers. I think he's quite impactful as a Nugget. He operates well in the slot and when he brings the ball up you can initiate with 5-out sets.

My distinction between the two is that Gordon's efficiency and on/off metrics come from the nature of his role. It's similar to how Pascal had his most efficient season in 2019. The attention created elsewhere allows the two to feast in open space.

I presume with Barnes that his boost to team efg% is by virtue of his playmaking. Comparatively, at least some of Gordon's on/off impact is due to his personal efficiency.

Simply put, Barnes' efg% is less than team avg while Gordon's efg% is above his team's avg. They both improve their team's accuracy while on court.

Spates wrote:

HiJiNX wrote:

Spates wrote:This is why I routinely being up context.

Scottie efg% 48.7
Gordon efg% 60.3

You can infer meaning from their usage. Aaron Gordon was the recipient of passes from Jokic, he's a finisher. Scottie was pretty inefficient when it's all said and done but the team is more efficient with his presence. All without being a focal point.

I actually think Aaron Gordon in Denver’s system is a really impactful player. Of course, the ways he and Barnes impact the game is much different, but I wouldn’t necessarily throw out the Gordon number either. He plugs a lot of holes as a connector who can pass, finish, rebound offensively and sometimes knock down a corner three. Perfect fit in Denver. They are noticeably worse on both ends when he’s not on the floor in my opinion.

With respect to Barnes, he has the ball much more often as a creator than Gordon does, so while Gordon is an elite connector, if he was in Barnes’ role here maybe the stats would show something different than what we are seeing. Like ATLTimekeeper said, the hope is that Scottie can produce efficient offence, which I think is more than possible once he gets comfortable leaning on his strengths and develops a decent foul line jumper.

I know there are worries about him developing a jumper, and as far as three point range goes, I agree. Generally speaking, I think being elite from deep is something some guys have and something other guys never will, but as far as a midrange jumper goes, anybody can get quite good there. There’s a long list of guys in Barnes’ size range who developed this in the league. A loooong list. Barnes will get there, which opens up everything for him.

Now, if he ever gets to 36% from deep then watch out.

I'm by no means throwing out Gordon's numbers. I think he's quite impactful as a Nugget. He operates well in the slot and when he brings the ball up you can initiate with 5-out sets.

My distinction between the two is that Gordon's efficiency and on/off metrics come from the nature of his role. It's similar to how Pascal had his most efficient season in 2019. The attention created elsewhere allows the two to feast in open space.

I presume with Barnes that his boost to team efg% is by virtue of his playmaking. Comparatively, at least some of Gordon's on/off impact is due to his personal efficiency.

Simply put, Barnes' efg% is less than team avg while Gordon's efg% is above his team's avg. They both improve their team's accuracy while on court.

Agreed 100%.

If he does end up getting traded to Portland, it's going to be so good for his development trajectory. Combination of him and Scoot/Sharpe will enhance his own strengths.

HumbleRen wrote:If he does end up getting traded to Portland, it's going to be so good for his development trajectory. Combination of him and Scoot/Sharpe will enhance his own strengths.

I put it at a 0 percent chance

Mikistan wrote:

HumbleRen wrote:If he does end up getting traded to Portland, it's going to be so good for his development trajectory. Combination of him and Scoot/Sharpe will enhance his own strengths.

I put it at a 0 percent chance

I hope so.

Seeing him thrive in a rebuild that I wanted for my team would make me sick lol.

He aint getting traded to portland. Kid needs to make a jump next season and i expect him to do so.

Tha Cynic wrote:Picking an anomaly to make an argument against a stat shows that someone has already made up their mind and nothing anyone says here will change that lol.

We can play that what if game all day. What if Scottie Barnes played with a bunch of guys who the ball didn't go to die with? What if Scottie Barnes played with guys who could shoot to compliment his passing? What if Scottie Barnes played on a team where he got to play the 4 and was the main option.

Those who have seen good things from Barnes can see why that stat about the team being better with Barnes makes sense. There were further stats that show this, like how much more accurate Barnes' passes are and how much better the team shoots from certain areas from his passes. When you really look deep and use some obvious logic even the advanced stats show that Barnes improved last season and even with poor efficient has been a big contributor to team success. It's just about who's presenting the stats and what their narrative is.

Now what happens when he refuses his offense and gets better at that? Imagine a Scottie Barnes who isn't some raw player with a mediocre jumper and handles. To me it's almost a forgone conclusion that he'll average 20 a game in the next year or two. When he ups his usage, he puts up stats pretty easily.

Hey, i wanted to respond to your response to me on the last scottie thread.

Im basically looking for a lot of the same stuff. Especially the increase in agression and involvement. I really want a leap defensively from him which is i think something you overlooked in the things you listed. That would be huge.

Most importantly, if he improves in the things we are looking for, most fans will be able to acknowledge that even if it comes with only a modest increase in his counting stats. It will be largely praised. More importantly it will DEFINITELY show in his advanced stats, which even in the simple advanced stats that are not behind a pay wall, he regressed in. Efg, ts%, ows, dws obpm, dbpm, bpm, vorp. Etc etc. All had a downturn.

My whole thing was we need to see those things and some of that potential come to fruition here in bis 3rd year. Theres certainly some pressure and urgency.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Mikistan wrote:

HumbleRen wrote:If he does end up getting traded to Portland, it's going to be so good for his development trajectory. Combination of him and Scoot/Sharpe will enhance his own strengths.

I put it at a 0 percent chance

It's even less than that.

Will be surprised if he doesn't firmly establish himself as a top 15 player this season and clearly ahead of everyone else in his draft class. Cade and Jalen are mediocre, Franz is good but has a limited ceiling, Mobley is really just Tyson Chandler 2.0, and Giddey is a traffic cone on defense. Scottie likely finishes top 10 in MVP voting this season.

i just hope scottie is able to come into training camp/regular season fully healthy and without distraction. think that ankle injury he caught late last summer coming into the campaign really messed things up for him and he never really recovered to be at this best. happens to a lot of guys in every sport.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nba/article/nick-nurse-raptors-scottie-barnes-playing-catch-up-after-minor-ankle-injury/

having a clean slate now will help. and although the expectations will be high we know he'll be wanting to show out/win as many games as possible.

3rd/4th years is when you usually start to see what sort of potential top-level chops these guys really have.

Reeko wrote:Will be surprised if he doesn't firmly establish himself as a top 15 player this season and clearly ahead of everyone else in his draft class. Cade and Jalen are mediocre, Franz is good but has a limited ceiling, Mobley is really just Tyson Chandler 2.0, and Giddey is a traffic cone on defense. Scottie likely finishes top 10 in MVP voting this season.

Cade and jalen mediocre? Interesting take.the potential os clearly there and you have to give them more than 2 years (cade less) to come to that conclusion, no?

canada_dry wrote:

Tha Cynic wrote:Picking an anomaly to make an argument against a stat shows that someone has already made up their mind and nothing anyone says here will change that lol.

We can play that what if game all day. What if Scottie Barnes played with a bunch of guys who the ball didn't go to die with? What if Scottie Barnes played with guys who could shoot to compliment his passing? What if Scottie Barnes played on a team where he got to play the 4 and was the main option.

Those who have seen good things from Barnes can see why that stat about the team being better with Barnes makes sense. There were further stats that show this, like how much more accurate Barnes' passes are and how much better the team shoots from certain areas from his passes. When you really look deep and use some obvious logic even the advanced stats show that Barnes improved last season and even with poor efficient has been a big contributor to team success. It's just about who's presenting the stats and what their narrative is.

Now what happens when he refuses his offense and gets better at that? Imagine a Scottie Barnes who isn't some raw player with a mediocre jumper and handles. To me it's almost a forgone conclusion that he'll average 20 a game in the next year or two. When he ups his usage, he puts up stats pretty easily.

Hey, i wanted to respond to your response to me on the last scottie thread.

Im basically looking for a lot of the same stuff. Especially the increase in agression and involvement. I really want a leap defensively from him which is i think something you overlooked in the things you listed. That would be huge.

Most importantly, if he improves in the things we are looking for, most fans will be able to acknowledge that even if it comes with only a modest increase in his counting stats. It will be largely praised. More importantly it will DEFINITELY show in his advanced stats, which even in the simple advanced stats that are not behind a pay wall, he regressed in. Efg, ts%, ows, dws obpm, dbpm, bpm, vorp. Etc etc. All had a downturn.

My whole thing was we need to see those things and some of that potential come to fruition here in bis 3rd year. Theres certainly some pressure and urgency.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

I agree. I guess in a roundabout way I am looking for major improvements this season. By now, you show what you're expecting to become. Even guys like Derozan, Siakam, Leonard, Giannis took jumps in their aggression which lead to them eventually putting up bigger scoring numbers.

I guess when I say I don't expect a huge jump, I mean more about his averaging 22+ PPG. I do think he can hit close to 20 this season if he's simply aggressive.

I just saw a LBJ workout, he dribbles as stiff as Scottie does, handles are more about turnover limits and ball retention rather than fancy handles.

His IQ is great so I have no worries, yes we need someone who can get into the teeth of the defense n the paint, glad that's what's Schroder for

Reeko wrote:Will be surprised if he doesn't firmly establish himself as a top 15 player this season and clearly ahead of everyone else in his draft class. Cade and Jalen are mediocre, Franz is good but has a limited ceiling, Mobley is really just Tyson Chandler 2.0, and Giddey is a traffic cone on defense. Scottie likely finishes top 10 in MVP voting this season.

Reeko, I mean, I respect you man. And I REALLY hope you're right... But...