Hoop Collective Podcast - Eastern Conference Tiers - Raptors in Tier 5

[torsport]

Brian Windhosrt and friends put the Eastern Conference Tiers for this upcoming season. They had 6 in total.

Tier 1
Boston - easy ride to the finals and the team is coming back in tact.

Tier 2 (none of the teams within a tier are necessarily in order)
Philly
NYK (Centre depth preventing them from being in tier 1)
Milwaukee

Tier 3
Magic
Pacers (thought they were at risk of taking a step back, like the Atlanta Hawks did after their run to the ECF with Trae)
Cavs (could be higher, but mentioned that a team doesn't fire their coach if they believe they are in tier 2)

Tier 4
Miami all by themselves. Better than play-in, but not by much. Team is old and still built around Jimmy, who if healthy could have the team march back to the ECF.

Tier 5
Atlanta
Chicago - doesn't look like they are committed to tanking at this point, but could change
Toronto - not good enough to be higher, but too good to be in the bottom tier.

Tier 6 (the tankers)
Charlotte - with their additions, could be better if healthy and new coach gets them to play defense, but expect to be bad one more year before they make a move up.
Brooklyn
Washington
Detroit

List has the Raps in the play-in, or finishing just outside of the play-in. Agree/disagree? I think it's about right at this point, with a chance to surprise upwards, or move downwards if key players miss significant time with 'mystery ailments' down the stretch.

[DreamTeam09]

Boston had some fortunate matchups in the playoffs and didn't look really good against the short handed Pacers.

[bluerap23]

Boston had some fortunate matchups in the playoffs and didn't look really good against the short handed Pacers.

If ever a chip deserved an asterisk it was that one. Still deserve tier 1 for the regular season. Playoffs... hoping they play some real teams.

[ciueli]

Tier 5
Atlanta
Chicago - doesn't look like they are committed to tanking at this point, but could change

A team that traded their best player for Chris Duarte + seconds and second best player for Josh Giddey isn't committed to tanking?

And lets be clear, if they could have moved Zach Lavine in a salary dump they would have done it in a second. They are definitely tanking, if Zach Lavine's career is over (quite possible) their best player most nights might be Coby White.

I think Atlanta is actually close to being in the same position now as they have been rumoured to be shopping Trae Young, he would have been traded already if there was any market for him. The Hawks have picked a direction with the Dejounte Murray trade, they want to build through the draft and develop their young guys starting their rebuild with Risacher.

[WuTang_CMB]

Watch on YouTube

[Scase]

Boston had some fortunate matchups in the playoffs and didn't look really good against the short handed Pacers.

You mean the team they swept without their starting centre? Win by 100 points or win by 1, you still won.

Tier 5
Atlanta
Chicago - doesn't look like they are committed to tanking at this point, but could change

A team that traded their best player for Chris Duarte + seconds and second best player for Josh Giddey isn't committed to tanking?

And lets be clear, if they could have moved Zach Lavine in a salary dump they would have done it in a second. They are definitely tanking, if Zach Lavine's career is over (quite possible) their best player most nights might be Coby White.

I think Atlanta is actually close to being in the same position now as they have been rumoured to be shopping Trae Young, he would have been traded already if there was any market for him. The Hawks have picked a direction with the Dejounte Murray trade, they want to build through the draft and develop their young guys starting their rebuild with Risacher.

I think it comes down to how the season plays out for them. If they can't trade Lavine and sit him for the season, yeah tank job, if they play him regularly though, that's another year of the Bulls going for the play in. The bulls have never committed to tanking, they play the same game as the raps, reaching for the high bar of the play in.

[DreamTeam09]

Boston had some fortunate matchups in the playoffs and didn't look really good against the short handed Pacers.

You mean the team they swept without their starting centre? Win by 100 points or win by 1, you still won.

Tier 5
Atlanta
Chicago - doesn't look like they are committed to tanking at this point, but could change

A team that traded their best player for Chris Duarte + seconds and second best player for Josh Giddey isn't committed to tanking?

And lets be clear, if they could have moved Zach Lavine in a salary dump they would have done it in a second. They are definitely tanking, if Zach Lavine's career is over (quite possible) their best player most nights might be Coby White.

I think Atlanta is actually close to being in the same position now as they have been rumoured to be shopping Trae Young, he would have been traded already if there was any market for him. The Hawks have picked a direction with the Dejounte Murray trade, they want to build through the draft and develop their young guys starting their rebuild with Risacher.

I think it comes down to how the season plays out for them. If they can't trade Lavine and sit him for the season, yeah tank job, if they play him regularly though, that's another year of the Bulls going for the play in. The bulls have never committed to tanking, they play the same game as the raps, reaching for the high bar of the play in.

Well hopefully Indy is healthy this year seeing how their starting backcourt was injured or missing & 3 of the 4 games down to a 1 or 2 possession loss.

Yeah they're Champions, I never disputed that. Did they look good against Indy, no, were they the benefit of favourable matchups due to opposition injuries, yeah

[Mr Funk]

The bulls have never committed to tanking, they play the same game as the raps, reaching for the high bar of the play in.

1998-1999 13-37
1999-2000 17-65
2000-2001 15-67
2001-2002 21-61
2002-2003 30-52
2003-2004 23-59

2017-2018 27-55
2018-2019 22-60
2019-2020 22-43

[Scase]

Boston had some fortunate matchups in the playoffs and didn't look really good against the short handed Pacers.

You mean the team they swept without their starting centre? Win by 100 points or win by 1, you still won.

A team that traded their best player for Chris Duarte + seconds and second best player for Josh Giddey isn't committed to tanking?

And lets be clear, if they could have moved Zach Lavine in a salary dump they would have done it in a second. They are definitely tanking, if Zach Lavine's career is over (quite possible) their best player most nights might be Coby White.

I think Atlanta is actually close to being in the same position now as they have been rumoured to be shopping Trae Young, he would have been traded already if there was any market for him. The Hawks have picked a direction with the Dejounte Murray trade, they want to build through the draft and develop their young guys starting their rebuild with Risacher.

I think it comes down to how the season plays out for them. If they can't trade Lavine and sit him for the season, yeah tank job, if they play him regularly though, that's another year of the Bulls going for the play in. The bulls have never committed to tanking, they play the same game as the raps, reaching for the high bar of the play in.

Well hopefully Indy is healthy this year seeing how their starting backcourt was injured or missing & 3 of the 4 games down to a 1 or 2 possession loss.

Yeah they're Champions, I never disputed that. Did they look good against Indy, no, were they the benefit of favourable matchups due to opposition injuries, yeah

How you can say this with a straight face, while discussing Indy is low key hilarious lol. IND wouldn't have made it out of the 1st round if not for favourable matchups due to injuries.

IND was definitely a worse match up for the C's than most teams, but they smashed everyone in the RS, and then won a chip. The pacers missing Math for the series and Hali for 2 games isn't changing that, the C's made it through 3 rounds missing their starting centre, lets not act like that didn't matter.

All in all, I want to see a healthy top 8 in the east this year, cause the playoffs last year sucked.

[Scase]

The bulls have never committed to tanking, they play the same game as the raps, reaching for the high bar of the play in.

1998-1999 13-37
1999-2000 17-65
2000-2001 15-67
2001-2002 21-61
2002-2003 30-52
2003-2004 23-59

2017-2018 27-55
2018-2019 22-60
2019-2020 22-43

I should've been more clear, I meant more recent memory, so not the 2000ish time and prior. As for 18-20, that wasn't tanking, so much as it was just having a bad team, mainly from injuries. Lavine, Lauri, and especially OPJ were riddled with injuries for years.

[DreamTeam09]

You mean the team they swept without their starting centre? Win by 100 points or win by 1, you still won.



I think it comes down to how the season plays out for them. If they can't trade Lavine and sit him for the season, yeah tank job, if they play him regularly though, that's another year of the Bulls going for the play in. The bulls have never committed to tanking, they play the same game as the raps, reaching for the high bar of the play in.

Well hopefully Indy is healthy this year seeing how their starting backcourt was injured or missing & 3 of the 4 games down to a 1 or 2 possession loss.

Yeah they're Champions, I never disputed that. Did they look good against Indy, no, were they the benefit of favourable matchups due to opposition injuries, yeah

How you can say this with a straight face, while discussing Indy is low key hilarious lol. IND wouldn't have made it out of the 1st round if not for favourable matchups due to injuries.

IND was definitely a worse match up for the C's than most teams, but they smashed everyone in the RS, and then won a chip. The pacers missing Math for the series and Hali for 2 games isn't changing that, the C's made it through 3 rounds missing their starting centre, lets not act like that didn't matter.

All in all, I want to see a healthy top 8 in the east this year, cause the playoffs last year sucked.

So you do see exactly what I see, now factor in Indy's starting backcourt hampered or not there entirely and avg margin of victory was 1 or 2 possession for several games and hey you might have a good series next year. Why? Cuz Indy actually matches up well with them
Yes ino the entire east was injured, and yeah porzingas was injured, he's injured now and will be injured again

lol again you're arguing with me and we are agreeing on everything

[Mr Funk]

As for 18-20, that wasn't tanking, so much as it was just having a bad team, mainly from injuries. Lavine, Lauri, and especially OPJ were riddled with injuries for years.

Butler had been traded, the roster was deliberately horrible and Hoiberg was eventually replaced with Jim Boylen who was arguably the worst coach in professional basketball history. GarPax were incompetent and were simply incapable of completing adequate roster construction, however they pivoted towards a tank in 2017-2018 and thought they had one more shot, as they also pivoted towards a tank in 2008-2009 when they fired Skiles (33-49), but then everything changed when they won the lottery at 1.7%. But in 2020 the pressure from the fans and media was simply too much for ownership and hired Karnišovas and Eversley.

[Scase]

Well hopefully Indy is healthy this year seeing how their starting backcourt was injured or missing & 3 of the 4 games down to a 1 or 2 possession loss.

Yeah they're Champions, I never disputed that. Did they look good against Indy, no, were they the benefit of favourable matchups due to opposition injuries, yeah

How you can say this with a straight face, while discussing Indy is low key hilarious lol. IND wouldn't have made it out of the 1st round if not for favourable matchups due to injuries.

IND was definitely a worse match up for the C's than most teams, but they smashed everyone in the RS, and then won a chip. The pacers missing Math for the series and Hali for 2 games isn't changing that, the C's made it through 3 rounds missing their starting centre, lets not act like that didn't matter.

All in all, I want to see a healthy top 8 in the east this year, cause the playoffs last year sucked.

So you do see exactly what I see, now factor in Indy's starting backcourt hampered or not there entirely and avg margin of victory was 1 or 2 possession for several games and hey you might have a good series next year. Why? Cuz Indy actually matches up well with them
Yes ino the entire east was injured, and yeah porzingas was injured, he's injured now and will be injured again

lol again you're arguing with me and we are agreeing on everything

I'm not arguing anything man relax, I'm saying that every team that moved on in the playoffs last year benefitted from injury riddled teams, IND benefitted the most, so using that as a reason as to why the C's moved on is a very biased take. I still think both fully healthy, the C's still move on, because even with the matchup being not so great, top to bottom they are a better team.

[Scase]

As for 18-20, that wasn't tanking, so much as it was just having a bad team, mainly from injuries. Lavine, Lauri, and especially OPJ were riddled with injuries for years.

Butler had been traded, the roster was deliberately horrible and Jim Boylen was arguably the worst coach in professional basketball history. GarPax were incompetent and were simply incapable of completing adequate roster construction, however they pivoted towards a tank in 2017-2018 and thought they had one more shot, as they also pivoted towards a tank in 2008-2009 when they fired Skiles (33-49), but then everything changed when they won the lottery at 1.7%. But in 2020 the pressure from the fans and media was simply too much for ownership and hired Karnišovas and Eversley.

Yeah maybe you're right and my memory is shot, but for the last handful of years they have pushed for that play in spot come hell or high water, and I'm not sure I see them outright tanking this year until Lavine is off the roster. And considering the cost to move him will require picks attached, which you dont do if you're tanking, I can't see a path to them being in the tier with WAS etc.

[Spida888]

Sounds about right, but depending on how serious we really are about player development and not gunning for the play-in, we could be a fringe Tier 6 team.

There are a lot of young guys on this team that can use more reps and will easily translate to losses if we play them in meaningful minutes.

[Pointgod]

Looks right, except I’d put Charlotte into Tier 5. That team was criminally injured and their coach sucked. We’re two moves away from being in tier 6 which is where things get interesting.

[Brinbe]

I'd put the Knicks right up there with Boston and I'd swap us with the Hornets

[ontnut]

Re: Cavs, we fired our HC and traded our best player despite being firmly in tier 2, if not tier 1b just behind Lebron.

I think the tiers are pretty clear at the moment. Hard to argue with much. I very much agree on being down on the Pacers, I do think they're at big risk of sliding back down to the middle of the pack vs. being an actual ECF/Finals contender.

[Tripod]

The tiers look right but every year a team surprises and jumps up or has injuries and drops down.

But agree that if teams are healthy. The playoffs will be much more entertaining.

[DG88]

Pretty much where I'd have the Raptors.