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Beck: Are we sure NBA expansion is a good idea?

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Beck: Are we sure NBA expansion is a good idea? 

Post#1 » by ArthurVandelay » Thu Feb 20, 2025 1:40 pm

Interesting read on expansion in the NBA. The focus is on overall talent but discusses the elusive superstars (or Batman's) and the lack of them in the league.

At The Ringer’s request, Snarr analyzed every season from 2001-02 to the present to assess how many true “superstars” there are in a given year. To do so, Snarr rated players based on EPM, widely considered the gold standard of publicly available, all-in-one impact metrics.

The verdict? The NBA has seen a modest uptick in star quantity across the past 24 years—from an average of about 8.5 superstars in the first five seasons to 10 superstars in the most recent five-year span. There are seven players who would qualify this season, the same number as in 2001-02.

“It is more or less fairly flat,” Snarr says. “I really don’t know if that would be enough to support an expansion.”


What exactly makes an NBA superstar? A franchise player? How do we separate the superstar from the average star? Is it just the gaudiness of their box score stats? Or is it the players who, in modern parlance, impact winning the most? How much of stardom is about production (stats) vs. entertainment value (the guys you’d pay to see)?

Because when you’re creating a team from scratch, you’re not just building a roster or trying to win games. You’re trying to build a following, to win hearts and minds. If your franchise star is Anthony Edwards, congratulations! People will pay to see him, win or lose. If your franchise star is Rudy Gobert? Well, he’ll make your team a winner, but you’ll need Edwards to score points and sell season tickets.

So, an obvious disclaimer: There’s a lot of “eye of the beholder” in these discussions, generally, even among the coaches, scouts, and executives who get paid to determine such things.


That’s why we turned to Snarr, a former analytics staffer for the Utah Jazz, whose EPM model and accompanying website, DunksandThrees.com, are universally respected in the analytics community. We needed an objective measure of a player’s impact. (Still: This remains an inexact science. Deciding where to draw the statistical cutoffs between various classes of “stars” is based in part on feel and, well, the dreaded eye test. Your results may vary.)

Using EPM, Snarr separated top players into three tiers: superstars (EPM of 2.4 and over in a given season), stars (EPM between 1.45 and 2.39), and significant contributors (EPM between 0.45 and 1.44). Those thresholds generally align with what you’d intuitively expect. The superstar tier last season included MVP Nikola Jokic (4.18), as well as Joel Embiid (3.70), Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (3.07), Luka Doncic (2.92), and Giannis Antetokounmpo (2.83). The second tier included everyone from, at the high end, Donovan Mitchell, Damian Lillard, and Devin Booker to, at the low end, Franz Wagner, Desmond Bane, and Trae Young. The third tier included Karl-Anthony Towns and Jaylen Brown down to Bradley Beal, Zach LaVine, and Malik Monk.

In short, you can build a contender around any of the Tier 1 guys. You can win a lot of games with the Tier 2 players, but you’ll probably need multiple of them to make a deep playoff run if you lack a Tier 1. And though some Tier 3 guys can play at a Tier 2 level in a given season, most of them are best suited as second or third bananas next to higher-tier stars.


To use an (admittedly tired) comic book analogy: The NBA is absolutely flush with Robins but still limited in its Batman supply. Pascal Siakam, Domantas Sabonis, and Bam Adebayo are fantastic talents and great supporting stars but ill-suited as leading men. Think of Mikal Bridges—a borderline All-Star and core-four player for a Phoenix Suns team that made the 2021 Finals but a miscast no. 1 in Brooklyn before a trade to the Knicks, where he’s again a fantastic fourth wheel.

If you look at Tiers 1 and 2 over the past decade, you find only a nominal increase in qualifying players—from a combined 30 players on average from 2001-06 to 34 from 2020-25. But dive into Tier 3, and a different picture emerges: It’s growing, substantially. Over the past five seasons, an average of 82 players per year qualified as Tier 3—up from 68 per year in the first five years of the analysis. There are 88 players in Tier 3 so far this season, compared to 66 in 2001-02.


So yes, it’s true: The league really is deeper than it’s ever been, with more talent and skill than we’ve ever seen. The data backs up the eye test. It’s just that the explosion of talent is mostly at the “significant contributor” level—the ace shooters, the lockdown defenders, the rim protectors, the indispensable starters who might make the occasional All-Star team but can’t carry a franchise.

Think of these tiers through the prism of the reigning champion Boston Celtics. They’re perennial contenders because of their superstar, Jayson Tatum (consistently Tier 1), and costar, Jaylen Brown (who varies between Tiers 2 and 3 in EPM), but they won the 2024 title on the strength of their top-shelf role players, like Derrick White, Jrue Holiday, and Kristaps Porzingis. Holiday has been an All-Star twice, Porzingis once, and White never. All three were in Tier 2 last season based on EPM. None of the three could carry a franchise on their own. (Even that trio combined on a roster lacking Tatum and Brown might struggle to win 41 games.)

Or consider the Zach LaVine and Brandon Ingram types—highly skilled, high-scoring players who have made an occasional All-Star team and earned max salaries but are best suited as complementary stars, not leading men. LaVine led the Chicago Bulls to a winning record just once in six seasons. Ingram led the New Orleans Pelicans to just two winning seasons in five years.

“How many of those players, the third-tier or middle-tier players, can you play through?” Snarr said.

All of which tracks with the general perception around the league.

“Most sports don’t have this huge disparity between the top players and the next tier down,” said another veteran Eastern Conference executive. “We have by far the largest gap of any sports between your top set of five to 15 to 20 players and the average player.”



Most teams today are in a perpetual scramble to find reliable, well-rounded rotation players—the sixth-through-10th guys who can be the difference between the playoffs and the lottery—and they’re not that easy to replace.

Or think of this all another way: In any given season, there are at least four to six teams that have no identifiable star—or even a second-tier star—to build around. It’s easy to dismiss the tanking teams, like Brooklyn and Washington, because they are bad by design. But consider the Utah Jazz, who have a legitimate star in Lauri Markkanen and are terrible anyway. Or the Portland Trail Blazers, who have accumulated some blue-chip talents (Scoot Henderson, Shaedon Sharpe, Donovan Clingan) but still can’t win half of their games. Or the Chicago Bulls, who got nowhere for years despite acquiring high-priced talents like Zach LaVine, DeMar DeRozan, and Nikola Vucevic.


The reality is, star acquisition in the NBA is a zero-sum game. There are a finite number of true superstars and a slightly larger (but also finite) group of Tier 2 stars in any given year—and those stars tend to gravitate toward one another. Every team with a solo star is trying to land a costar, or two. Which means that some teams have multiple stars, and some teams have zero. Add two more teams, and you’ll have two more franchises without a star—or hope. And even the best teams will likely lose some depth.


https://www.theringer.com/2025/02/18/nba/nba-expansion-teams-las-vegas-seattle-adam-silver-future

I don't think this take is controversial on a deeply divided Raptors board: the Raptors have multiple possibly 2nd and 3rd tier players, but no Batman/lead banana/superstar.
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Re: Beck: Are we sure NBA expansion is a good idea? 

Post#2 » by Psubs » Thu Feb 20, 2025 1:47 pm

The crop of young players aren't going to replace the Steph, Lebron, KD's.

Really just Wemby. Flagg is going to be great though but maybe just Paolo Banchero with more steals and blocks?
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Re: Beck: Are we sure NBA expansion is a good idea? 

Post#3 » by mihaic » Thu Feb 20, 2025 1:49 pm

The comish probably views it as a good idea from the business point of view as they tap into yet another city from which to funnel local money. There are 20+ teams without a superstar : what's one more gonna do.

Edit: I agree with the main content.
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Re: Beck: Are we sure NBA expansion is a good idea? 

Post#4 » by ATLTimekeeper » Thu Feb 20, 2025 1:58 pm

The entire business model of the NBA is to create a tiered hierarchy within each team, so teams do just that. They put crowns on undeserving players because they were drafted high or because they averaged over 20ppg, and then those players use that as leverage to get paid as much as the deserving players. But basketball as a sport doesn't have to function that way. Teams are trapped, though, because if they succeed with a bunch of tier 3s paid as tier 3s, eventually the best of the tier 3s will want to be paid as tier 2s and 1s. So it's better to lock in a Brandon Ingram/DeMar type and see if you can outsmart the competition on the margins.

Expansion is a good idea because it broadens the market of the sport. Look at how many Canadian basketball talents there are just because the Raptors exist.
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Re: Beck: Are we sure NBA expansion is a good idea? 

Post#5 » by CPT » Thu Feb 20, 2025 1:59 pm

Interesting to see the data.

I wonder if the fact that they all play against each other has some impact on the model?

I don’t have the strongest background in statistics, but is it possible that the EPM model just wouldn’t support 15-20 players at the superstar level?

On the other hand, are there always going to be around that 8-10 number of superstars without it really mattering who they are?

Like, if this list is always just going to identify the top 10ish players, is there any sense in worrying that there are only 10?

If that’s the case, I don’t see why it’s relevant to the expansion argument, especially if tiers 2 and 3 are growing. It’s pretty clear that the NBA is more talented than ever.

Hopefully at least some of this made sense.
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Re: Beck: Are we sure NBA expansion is a good idea? 

Post#6 » by deck » Thu Feb 20, 2025 2:19 pm

The article concedes that EPM at 2.4 is somewhat arbitrary, factoring in the 'eye test' to arrive at that threshold. But it is interesting based on the perceived impact, how few tier 1 players there truly are.
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Re: Beck: Are we sure NBA expansion is a good idea? 

Post#7 » by CPT » Thu Feb 20, 2025 2:28 pm

Psubs wrote:The crop of young players aren't going to replace the Steph, Lebron, KD's.

Really just Wemby. Flagg is going to be great though but maybe just Paolo Banchero with more steals and blocks?


It looks that way now, but it also would have been insane to suggest Steph (and to some extent KD) would be top 10-15 all-time players until they were.

Can Luka reach that level? Ant? SGA? Tatum?

There’s also the middle generation of guys like Jokic and Giannis, each already with a title by age 30 and 5-8 years of legacy building ahead of them before they get to the age of Bron, Steph, and KD.
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Re: Beck: Are we sure NBA expansion is a good idea? 

Post#8 » by Badonkadonk » Thu Feb 20, 2025 3:04 pm

ArthurVandelay wrote:Because when you’re creating a team from scratch, you’re not just building a roster or trying to win games. You’re trying to build a following, to win hearts and minds. If your franchise star is Anthony Edwards, congratulations! People will pay to see him, win or lose. If your franchise star is Rudy Gobert? Well, he’ll make your team a winner, but you’ll need Edwards to score points and sell season tickets.

The Blue Jays just failed spectacularly in understanding this part with their botched handling of the Vladdy situation.

As to the study, nothing too surprising though I wish it included commentary overall quality or talent level, as today's superstars (by that definition) are playing against just a much higher standard. I still watch vids of games when I was a kid and fell in love with the game (Magic and Bird, just missed on Dr. J's prime) and it's pretty crazy how skills have normalized across positions. Almost everyone can pass, dudes are taller and more athletic, looks like there's way less space on the court now etc.

Doesn't really impact the "superstars are special" thesis of the study, just interesting to me.
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Re: Beck: Are we sure NBA expansion is a good idea? 

Post#9 » by realball » Thu Feb 20, 2025 3:17 pm

If there are only 7-10 superstars, and 30 teams now... I don't see how having 32 teams is going to change anything. Most teams won't have a superstar, with 30 or 32 teams, so the entire argument is irrelevant.
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Re: Beck: Are we sure NBA expansion is a good idea? 

Post#10 » by ArthurVandelay » Thu Feb 20, 2025 3:30 pm

realball wrote:If there are only 7-10 superstars, and 30 teams now... I don't see how having 32 teams is going to change anything. Most teams won't have a superstar, with 30 or 32 teams, so the entire argument is irrelevant.



That is a good point too.

What's the difference between 20-23 teams not having a legit superstar versus 22-25?
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Re: Beck: Are we sure NBA expansion is a good idea? 

Post#11 » by YogurtProducer » Thu Feb 20, 2025 3:46 pm

To combat this you just simply remove the max contract, or increase what a max contract is.

Allow teams to be able to build winners without a tier 1 star and this literally is not a problem.

If the elite could be paid 50% of the cap, suddenly you probably can build a winner around a Pascal Siakam if you only pay him 30%.
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Re: Beck: Are we sure NBA expansion is a good idea? 

Post#12 » by ArthurVandelay » Thu Feb 20, 2025 3:51 pm

YogurtProducer wrote:To combat this you just simply remove the max contract, or increase what a max contract is.

Allow teams to be able to build winners without a tier 1 star and this literally is not a problem.

If the elite could be paid 50% of the cap, suddenly you probably can build a winner around a Pascal Siakam if you only pay him 30%.


There are 7-10 players out of a 450 player union who would support this.
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Re: Beck: Are we sure NBA expansion is a good idea? 

Post#13 » by Scase » Thu Feb 20, 2025 4:25 pm

CPT wrote:Interesting to see the data.

I wonder if the fact that they all play against each other has some impact on the model?

I don’t have the strongest background in statistics, but is it possible that the EPM model just wouldn’t support 15-20 players at the superstar level?

On the other hand, are there always going to be around that 8-10 number of superstars without it really mattering who they are?

Like, if this list is always just going to identify the top 10ish players, is there any sense in worrying that there are only 10?

If that’s the case, I don’t see why it’s relevant to the expansion argument, especially if tiers 2 and 3 are growing. It’s pretty clear that the NBA is more talented than ever.

Hopefully at least some of this made sense.

That's a good point, a top 10 will always be a top 10, if you're just looking for a top 10 lol.

That said, I think expansion is bad for the product, but (probably) good for the business. People like to talk about how deep the league is talent-wise, but you still have a bunch of teams that are just flat out uncompetitive. And maybe Vegas doesn't get as impacted by the whole "undesirable" market thing that a lot of teams do, but the core problem is there are only so many Batmans, and a team led by Robins don't ever amount to anything but playoff fodder for the better teams.

Adding more teams to the league just gives more options for teams to overpay the Robins, which is kinda what we were seeing lessen with the new CBA, there's only so many teams and people aren't willing to max out 2nd options as much as they used to before. But you throw another 400mil in cap space into the mix with 2 more teams and now you have a lot more money that can be given to guys who aren't "worth" it.

IMO there isn't enough high end talent to support more teams, but definitely enough to support middling teams.
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Re: Beck: Are we sure NBA expansion is a good idea? 

Post#14 » by ishoy123 » Thu Feb 20, 2025 4:43 pm

YogurtProducer wrote:To combat this you just simply remove the max contract, or increase what a max contract is.

Allow teams to be able to build winners without a tier 1 star and this literally is not a problem.

If the elite could be paid 50% of the cap, suddenly you probably can build a winner around a Pascal Siakam if you only pay him 30%.


If you removed the max salary, you'd have to revamp the entire system of trades/contracts/caps because those players would be completely untradeable.
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Re: Beck: Are we sure NBA expansion is a good idea? 

Post#15 » by YogurtProducer » Thu Feb 20, 2025 4:52 pm

ishoy123 wrote:
YogurtProducer wrote:To combat this you just simply remove the max contract, or increase what a max contract is.

Allow teams to be able to build winners without a tier 1 star and this literally is not a problem.

If the elite could be paid 50% of the cap, suddenly you probably can build a winner around a Pascal Siakam if you only pay him 30%.


If you removed the max salary, you'd have to revamp the entire system of trades/contracts/caps because those players would be completely untradeable.

Not necessarily. You could just aggregate salaries to trade them.
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Re: Beck: Are we sure NBA expansion is a good idea? 

Post#16 » by YogurtProducer » Thu Feb 20, 2025 4:52 pm

ArthurVandelay wrote:
YogurtProducer wrote:To combat this you just simply remove the max contract, or increase what a max contract is.

Allow teams to be able to build winners without a tier 1 star and this literally is not a problem.

If the elite could be paid 50% of the cap, suddenly you probably can build a winner around a Pascal Siakam if you only pay him 30%.


There are 7-10 players out of a 450 player union who would support this.

That is true. Unfortunate for fans
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Re: Beck: Are we sure NBA expansion is a good idea? 

Post#17 » by kalel123 » Thu Feb 20, 2025 4:55 pm

YogurtProducer wrote:To combat this you just simply remove the max contract, or increase what a max contract is.

Allow teams to be able to build winners without a tier 1 star and this literally is not a problem.

If the elite could be paid 50% of the cap, suddenly you probably can build a winner around a Pascal Siakam if you only pay him 30%.


Or there's going to be a Siakam that gets 50% of the cap because a team is desperate and soon, every Siakam-level guys get 50% and it'll be the middle guys that will lose out. Super max is already bad enough.
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Re: Beck: Are we sure NBA expansion is a good idea? 

Post#18 » by TheGeneral99 » Thu Feb 20, 2025 4:59 pm

I think the issue is that teams are paying tier 3 stars like tier 1 stars because they have to. So we see guys like Siakam, Sabonis, Towns, Brown, Murray etc. getting the max.

The other issue is teams also make long-term bets on their young stars like Barnes, Cade, Mobley, Maxey etc. giving them the max and hoping they turn into tier 1 or tier 2 players, but it's a big unknown.

We obviously gave Barnes the max and we hope he can keep growing and improving from a tier 3 star into a tier 2 or tier 1 star.

This is why I'm happy Masai got Ingram for at least a reasonable deal...he's getting paid like a tier 3 star, not a tier 1 or tier 2 star.
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Re: Beck: Are we sure NBA expansion is a good idea? 

Post#19 » by ItsDanger » Thu Feb 20, 2025 5:01 pm

This thread is sponsored by tWo.
Organization can be defined as an organized body of people with a particular purpose. Not random.
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Re: Beck: Are we sure NBA expansion is a good idea? 

Post#20 » by ArthurVandelay » Thu Feb 20, 2025 5:07 pm

ItsDanger wrote:This thread is sponsored by tWo.


Funny....no one mentioned tank until....now.

Lots of threads devoted to that topic. Hopefully this one continues to be about overall talent, salary cap, expansion, etc.

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