Long term objectives - not tanking but depth building

[Dalek]

I know the easy way to look at the end of season is to think this is a tank job because the main players aren't playing big minutes. Next year we will have a lotto pick and Ingram and we will be looking at the playoffs again.

Another way to look at this can be taken from the Memphis Grizzlies approach. They have nearly 9 players averaging 20 minutes or more with 2 rookies and Scottie Pippen Jr. eating those minutes. They sucked last year because JJJ, Ja and Bane were all out at times. But they gave their players lots of minutes and stayed consistent with their system principles.

1.Young players got critical court time
2. The players understand the complex offense more
3. In the end, next season they have more depth and guys who can step in

The Grizzlies this year are way more resilient and play a great style which is probably a top three offense.

It is an investment in young players but also a reality that injuries are going to happen. Depth and system knowledge will help keep this team good during the injury times. It may partially be a reason why we are seeing young guys close games.

[ATLTimekeeper]

I know the easy way to look at the end of season is to think this is a tank job because the main players aren't playing big minutes. Next year we will have a lotto pick and Ingram and we will be looking at the playoffs again.

Another way to look at this can be taken from the Memphis Grizzlies approach. They have nearly 9 players averaging 20 minutes or more with 2 rookies and Scottie Pippen Jr. eating those minutes. They sucked last year because JJJ, Ja and Bane were all out at times. But they gave their players lots of minutes and stayed consistent with their system principles.

1.Young players got critical court time
2. The players understand the complex offense more
3. In the end, next season they have more depth and guys who can step in

The Grizzlies this year are way more resilient and play a great style which is probably a top three offense.

It is an investment in young players but also a reality that injuries are going to happen. Depth and system knowledge will help keep this team good during the injury times. It may partially be a reason why we are seeing young guys close games.

But really only Pippen and Aldama have made the rotation. The other two are rookies. Pippen played like 500 minutes last year, akin to Battle's experience.

If they're doing just as well with rookies in their top 9, it's hard to argue that last year was all that helpful for development.

[Indeed]

Depth building is usually after you have a performing core, and you can easily acquire them from trades, because you are likely to trade end of the draft on raw prospects for an experience role player.

[YogurtProducer]

Depth building is usually after you have a performing core, and you can easily acquire them from trades, because you are likely to trade end of the draft on raw prospects for an experience role player.

This is the complete opposite of the truth.

Most teams build depth first and then consolidate if anything. It is very, very hard to get depth once you have a core as your picks get later, your ability to play them diminishes, and you cap out.

[Indeed]

Depth building is usually after you have a performing core, and you can easily acquire them from trades, because you are likely to trade end of the draft on raw prospects for an experience role player.

This is the complete opposite of the truth.

Most teams build depth first and then consolidate if anything. It is very, very hard to get depth once you have a core as your picks get later, your ability to play them diminishes, and you cap out.

Which current contending team build it that way?

[YogurtProducer]

Depth building is usually after you have a performing core, and you can easily acquire them from trades, because you are likely to trade end of the draft on raw prospects for an experience role player.

This is the complete opposite of the truth.

Most teams build depth first and then consolidate if anything. It is very, very hard to get depth once you have a core as your picks get later, your ability to play them diminishes, and you cap out.

Which current contending team build it that way?

The obvious example is the 2019 Raptors. It was exactly what we did.

Lakers built up depth - consolidated for Davis (and now Luka)
OKC built up depth - traded some of it for Caruso this past summer. Prime candidate to trade a bunch of it for a star
BOS built up depth - consolidated it for Jrue and Kristaps and White
CLE built up depth - traded most of it for Mitchell
NYK built up depth - traded it for OG/KAT/Bridges
MEM built up depth as noted by OP - haven't consolidated it yet

The real question is which team DIDNT do that. The reality is its very hard to get depth once you are good.

[Dalek]

If you are curious about Memphis and the other changes they implemented to innovate, it's because of this former Euroleague coach from Finland.

Watch on YouTube

[Tha Cynic]

I know the easy way to look at the end of season is to think this is a tank job because the main players aren't playing big minutes. Next year we will have a lotto pick and Ingram and we will be looking at the playoffs again.

Another way to look at this can be taken from the Memphis Grizzlies approach. They have nearly 9 players averaging 20 minutes or more with 2 rookies and Scottie Pippen Jr. eating those minutes. They sucked last year because JJJ, Ja and Bane were all out at times. But they gave their players lots of minutes and stayed consistent with their system principles.

1.Young players got critical court time
2. The players understand the complex offense more
3. In the end, next season they have more depth and guys who can step in

The Grizzlies this year are way more resilient and play a great style which is probably a top three offense.

It is an investment in young players but also a reality that injuries are going to happen. Depth and system knowledge will help keep this team good during the injury times. It may partially be a reason why we are seeing young guys close games.

But really only Pippen and Aldama have made the rotation. The other two are rookies. Pippen played like 500 minutes last year, akin to Battle's experience.

If they're doing just as well with rookies in their top 9, it's hard to argue that last year was all that helpful for development.

So is the argument that playing your younger players and getting them in game experience is not useful?

Kind of trying to understand the point of this post.

[Tha Cynic]

Depth building is usually after you have a performing core, and you can easily acquire them from trades, because you are likely to trade end of the draft on raw prospects for an experience role player.

So what should they do right now? Play the starters even more and not play the young guys?

You would still want to develop whatever you have .

The Warriors for example were decimated by injuries in 2019-2020 and went 15-50. They had guys like Poole get a ton of playing time and ended up winning a championship a couple of seasons later. It’s still useful to develop everything you have when you know where they fall.

[Spida888]

We are doing both - tanking and developing players.

We are clearly tanking, but there are different levels to it and we haven't gotten to the levels like Utah.

A nice side effect/benefit of not playing your vets as much means your young guys get more reps to develop. Also, the main guys get to experiment with things that they normally wouldn't in-game because winning isn't a priority.

[Indeed]

This is the complete opposite of the truth.

Most teams build depth first and then consolidate if anything. It is very, very hard to get depth once you have a core as your picks get later, your ability to play them diminishes, and you cap out.

Which current contending team build it that way?

The obvious example is the 2019 Raptors. It was exactly what we did.

Lakers built up depth - consolidated for Davis (and now Luka)
OKC built up depth - traded some of it for Caruso this past summer. Prime candidate to trade a bunch of it for a star
BOS built up depth - consolidated it for Jrue and Kristaps and White
CLE built up depth - traded most of it for Mitchell
NYK built up depth - traded it for OG/KAT/Bridges
MEM built up depth as noted by OP - haven't consolidated it yet

The real question is which team DIDNT do that. The reality is its very hard to get depth once you are good.

New Orleans likes the Lakers deal? It was Davis who asked for it, no? Toronto can do the same?
Boston built from Tatum and Brown before getting Holiday, they have a core in place before hand.
Cleveland drafted Garland and Mobley, they have a core in place before hand.
New York and same as Lakers, they get their players from free agency, not through consolidating assets. They trade for them after they get their core.
Memphis has Ja Morant and JJJ before they build their depth.

Most teams have their core before they find the right players to fit into their core, you don't get core players and hope to get a core that you have to build around again.

[YogurtProducer]

Which current contending team build it that way?

The obvious example is the 2019 Raptors. It was exactly what we did.

Lakers built up depth - consolidated for Davis (and now Luka)
OKC built up depth - traded some of it for Caruso this past summer. Prime candidate to trade a bunch of it for a star
BOS built up depth - consolidated it for Jrue and Kristaps and White
CLE built up depth - traded most of it for Mitchell
NYK built up depth - traded it for OG/KAT/Bridges
MEM built up depth as noted by OP - haven't consolidated it yet

The real question is which team DIDNT do that. The reality is its very hard to get depth once you are good.

New Orleans likes the Lakers deal? It was Davis who asked for it, no? Toronto can do the same?
Boston built from Tatum and Brown before getting Holiday, they have a core in place before hand.
Cleveland drafted Garland and Mobley, they have a core in place before hand.
New York and same as Lakers, they get their players from free agency, not through consolidating assets. They trade for them after they get their core.
Memphis has Ja Morant and JJJ before they build their depth.

Most teams have their core before they find the right players to fit into their core, you don't get core players and hope to get a core that you have to build around again.

What are you talking about?

All of those teams consolidated depth for key core pieces. When people are talking depth they are talking 6th-15th men on your roster. No one is saying the OG/KAT/Bridges trade was "for depth". They traded away depth for core pieces. Same with BOS with Jrue and them. They traded away depth and draft assets to get a core piece.

Just because teams have good players already does not mean the new guys aren't core pieces. And FWIW, if we do the same you be calling Barnes/2025 1st/Ingram our "core" pieces we already had.

But as OP said, we are working on our depth right now as do most good teams before they are good. The easiest way to rise up the standings is to have depth. And then once you are closer to the top you make those consolidation trades.

[Indeed]

The obvious example is the 2019 Raptors. It was exactly what we did.

Lakers built up depth - consolidated for Davis (and now Luka)
OKC built up depth - traded some of it for Caruso this past summer. Prime candidate to trade a bunch of it for a star
BOS built up depth - consolidated it for Jrue and Kristaps and White
CLE built up depth - traded most of it for Mitchell
NYK built up depth - traded it for OG/KAT/Bridges
MEM built up depth as noted by OP - haven't consolidated it yet

The real question is which team DIDNT do that. The reality is its very hard to get depth once you are good.

New Orleans likes the Lakers deal? It was Davis who asked for it, no? Toronto can do the same?
Boston built from Tatum and Brown before getting Holiday, they have a core in place before hand.
Cleveland drafted Garland and Mobley, they have a core in place before hand.
New York and same as Lakers, they get their players from free agency, not through consolidating assets. They trade for them after they get their core.
Memphis has Ja Morant and JJJ before they build their depth.

Most teams have their core before they find the right players to fit into their core, you don't get core players and hope to get a core that you have to build around again.

What are you talking about?

All of those teams consolidated depth for key core pieces. When people are talking depth they are talking 6th-15th men on your roster. No one is saying the OG/KAT/Bridges trade was "for depth". They traded away depth for core pieces. Same with BOS with Jrue and them. They traded away depth and draft assets to get a core piece.

Just because teams have good players already does not mean the new guys aren't core pieces. And FWIW, if we do the same you be calling Barnes/2025 1st/Ingram our "core" pieces we already had.

But as OP said, we are working on our depth right now as do most good teams before they are good. The easiest way to rise up the standings is to have depth. And then once you are closer to the top you make those consolidation trades.

Again, New York and Lakers are in a different situation, where they build core through the will of players (free agency or request trades to there), Brunson and LeBron are clearly the initial core / building block. Anunoby (Mikal Bridges might be more convincing) and Davis are basically players want to go there and got traded. Those teams don't need to develop players, nor start with depth. I don't call these teams "consolidated depth for key core pieces", because opposing teams aren't interested in their returned players (those are fillers not depth).

As for Boston, again, they already had a performing core in Brown and Tatum. Most teams have their performing core, then they decide the type of role players they need, or add another core that fits. They don't start with depth and trade their depth without a performing core (without a plan) in place. Boston didn't start without Brown nor Tatum.

Depth building is usually after you have a performing core, and you can easily acquire them from trades, because you are likely to trade end of the draft on raw prospects for an experience role player.

This is the complete opposite of the truth.

Most teams build depth first and then consolidate if anything. It is very, very hard to get depth once you have a core as your picks get later, your ability to play them diminishes, and you cap out.

Barnes / 2025 1st / Ingram is not a "performing core". They have NOT even play a single game together.

[Tripod]

The "kids" have already been playing more minutes than expected due to IQ, BB and KO missing so much time.

All showed promise in different ways but also things they need to work on. And now we have 29 games left where they will keep getting minutes, when healthy.

We may not see the benefits of it this year(Shead aside), but hopefully it helps them speed up their development going forward.

[Dalek]

I know the easy way to look at the end of season is to think this is a tank job because the main players aren't playing big minutes. Next year we will have a lotto pick and Ingram and we will be looking at the playoffs again.

Another way to look at this can be taken from the Memphis Grizzlies approach. They have nearly 9 players averaging 20 minutes or more with 2 rookies and Scottie Pippen Jr. eating those minutes. They sucked last year because JJJ, Ja and Bane were all out at times. But they gave their players lots of minutes and stayed consistent with their system principles.

1.Young players got critical court time
2. The players understand the complex offense more
3. In the end, next season they have more depth and guys who can step in

The Grizzlies this year are way more resilient and play a great style which is probably a top three offense.

It is an investment in young players but also a reality that injuries are going to happen. Depth and system knowledge will help keep this team good during the injury times. It may partially be a reason why we are seeing young guys close games.

But really only Pippen and Aldama have made the rotation. The other two are rookies. Pippen played like 500 minutes last year, akin to Battle's experience.

If they're doing just as well with rookies in their top 9, it's hard to argue that last year was all that helpful for development.

So is the argument that playing your younger players and getting them in game experience is not useful?

Kind of trying to understand the point of this post.

I think Memphis overall shifted there philosophy last season and they used last season as trial and error time to refine what became the offensive system in 2024-25. Key to that was shorter shifts but more wide-spread minutes across the rotation. Think of it as them throwing fresh bodies out for 48 minutes.

We will have a bigger benefit having our younger team members get used to the system and become legit depth pieces. Next season, we will be able to outrun teams for the full game, have legs for our 3P shots.

Guys like Pippen and Aldama emerged last season because they adapted well. Now with the rookies, Memphis had a proven system to initiate players and manage high level play. I think of it as an investment and a test at the same time.

Why its relevant is that this generation of NBA players go extremely hard and need more rest/injury time, and system depth is where you build your program.

[vini_vidi_vici]

I dont think its depth building so much as its asset accumulation and development. It will help our depth as a byproduct though. If we win a championship, its likely most of these players are moved, or gone.

This has always been the M.O of this FO. If theres deals out there to win, they will take it, they load the end of the bench with guys to develop either as 2ways, or rookies. With player movement as it is, its not hard to see more stars becoming available and trading for them. To get to that point you dont just need your own picks, you need an young asset base you develop, generally speaking.

Utah for all its love is playing 3 guys (would probably be 4 is Clarkson wasnt injured) >=26 yrs old, in their top 6 in mins. Even looking at USG, Kessler is efficient but he barely finishes, so 5 of their top 6 is >= 26 yrs old.

For the Raps its 2 if the top 8 >= 26 yrs old (one is Davion Mitchell). 2 of the Raps top 6 in USG is >=26 yrs old (one is Bruce Brown).

Among rookies with >=1000 possessions, we have 4 (Battle/Mogbo/Walter/Shead), the next highest team with 3 is WAS (Carrington/George/Sarr) and UTAH (Collier/Filipowski/WIlliams). And FWIW, 4 of the 6 on those 2 teams have worse TS% than all 4 of the Raps rooks.

So not only are we packing the end of the bench with kids, but we give our guys possessions/mins on top of that to develop.

[Indeed]

Depth building is usually after you have a performing core, and you can easily acquire them from trades, because you are likely to trade end of the draft on raw prospects for an experience role player.

So what should they do right now? Play the starters even more and not play the young guys?

You would still want to develop whatever you have .

The Warriors for example were decimated by injuries in 2019-2020 and went 15-50. They had guys like Poole get a ton of playing time and ended up winning a championship a couple of seasons later. It’s still useful to develop everything you have when you know where they fall.

I don't think Poole is a good example, but certainly we can find gems from it.
History suggested the only depth players (non starter) that we signed long terms are Powell and Boucher. The other ones we can just forget about them.

But we are a bit funny, because we had been building around both from draft and traded players.
It seems we don't tank (or owner doesn't want to maybe the better wording). So I also wonder how we are getting a high ceiling prospect to initiate a performing core. Most teams would tank until they got a potential championship player from draft before they started build around them.

From our transactions we saw, we trade for injured player and gamble on them (Leonard and Ingram). Maybe we rather risk and have an excuse than actually go for a multiple years tank.

[YogurtProducer]

Depth building is usually after you have a performing core, and you can easily acquire them from trades, because you are likely to trade end of the draft on raw prospects for an experience role player.

So what should they do right now? Play the starters even more and not play the young guys?

You would still want to develop whatever you have .

The Warriors for example were decimated by injuries in 2019-2020 and went 15-50. They had guys like Poole get a ton of playing time and ended up winning a championship a couple of seasons later. It’s still useful to develop everything you have when you know where they fall.

I don't think Poole is a good example, but certainly we can find gems from it.
History suggested the only depth players (non starter) that we signed long terms are Powell and Boucher. The other ones we can just forget about them.

But we are a bit funny, because we had been building around both from draft and traded players.
It seems we don't tank (or owner doesn't want to maybe the better wording). So I also wonder how we are getting a high ceiling prospect to initiate a performing core. Most teams would tank until they got a potential championship player from draft before they started build around them.

From our transactions we saw, we trade for injured player and gamble on them (Leonard and Ingram). Maybe we rather risk and have an excuse than actually go for a multiple years tank.

How ISNT Poole a good example? A dude that played a ton in a similar season as ours who went onto be an importnat piece in a championship team and got a big $ deal because he performed.

That is like... the best case of something like this.,

[YogurtProducer]

New Orleans likes the Lakers deal? It was Davis who asked for it, no? Toronto can do the same?
Boston built from Tatum and Brown before getting Holiday, they have a core in place before hand.
Cleveland drafted Garland and Mobley, they have a core in place before hand.
New York and same as Lakers, they get their players from free agency, not through consolidating assets. They trade for them after they get their core.
Memphis has Ja Morant and JJJ before they build their depth.

Most teams have their core before they find the right players to fit into their core, you don't get core players and hope to get a core that you have to build around again.

What are you talking about?

All of those teams consolidated depth for key core pieces. When people are talking depth they are talking 6th-15th men on your roster. No one is saying the OG/KAT/Bridges trade was "for depth". They traded away depth for core pieces. Same with BOS with Jrue and them. They traded away depth and draft assets to get a core piece.

Just because teams have good players already does not mean the new guys aren't core pieces. And FWIW, if we do the same you be calling Barnes/2025 1st/Ingram our "core" pieces we already had.

But as OP said, we are working on our depth right now as do most good teams before they are good. The easiest way to rise up the standings is to have depth. And then once you are closer to the top you make those consolidation trades.

Again, New York and Lakers are in a different situation, where they build core through the will of players (free agency or request trades to there), Brunson and LeBron are clearly the initial core / building block. Anunoby (Mikal Bridges might be more convincing) and Davis are basically players want to go there and got traded. Those teams don't need to develop players, nor start with depth. I don't call these teams "consolidated depth for key core pieces", because opposing teams aren't interested in their returned players (those are fillers not depth).

As for Boston, again, they already had a performing core in Brown and Tatum. Most teams have their performing core, then they decide the type of role players they need, or add another core that fits. They don't start with depth and trade their depth without a performing core (without a plan) in place. Boston didn't start without Brown nor Tatum.

Depth building is usually after you have a performing core, and you can easily acquire them from trades, because you are likely to trade end of the draft on raw prospects for an experience role player.

This is the complete opposite of the truth.

Most teams build depth first and then consolidate if anything. It is very, very hard to get depth once you have a core as your picks get later, your ability to play them diminishes, and you cap out.

Barnes / 2025 1st / Ingram is not a "performing core". They have NOT even play a single game together.

Honestly, not even sure what you're arguing about anymore. Goalposts have shifted so fast here and you have shifted so far away from OPs original post and mine IDK what you are even on anymore.

[Indeed]

What are you talking about?

All of those teams consolidated depth for key core pieces. When people are talking depth they are talking 6th-15th men on your roster. No one is saying the OG/KAT/Bridges trade was "for depth". They traded away depth for core pieces. Same with BOS with Jrue and them. They traded away depth and draft assets to get a core piece.

Just because teams have good players already does not mean the new guys aren't core pieces. And FWIW, if we do the same you be calling Barnes/2025 1st/Ingram our "core" pieces we already had.

But as OP said, we are working on our depth right now as do most good teams before they are good. The easiest way to rise up the standings is to have depth. And then once you are closer to the top you make those consolidation trades.

Again, New York and Lakers are in a different situation, where they build core through the will of players (free agency or request trades to there), Brunson and LeBron are clearly the initial core / building block. Anunoby (Mikal Bridges might be more convincing) and Davis are basically players want to go there and got traded. Those teams don't need to develop players, nor start with depth. I don't call these teams "consolidated depth for key core pieces", because opposing teams aren't interested in their returned players (those are fillers not depth).

As for Boston, again, they already had a performing core in Brown and Tatum. Most teams have their performing core, then they decide the type of role players they need, or add another core that fits. They don't start with depth and trade their depth without a performing core (without a plan) in place. Boston didn't start without Brown nor Tatum.

This is the complete opposite of the truth.

Most teams build depth first and then consolidate if anything. It is very, very hard to get depth once you have a core as your picks get later, your ability to play them diminishes, and you cap out.

Barnes / 2025 1st / Ingram is not a "performing core". They have NOT even play a single game together.

Honestly, not even sure what you're arguing about anymore. Goalposts have shifted so fast here and you have shifted so far away from OPs original post and mine IDK what you are even on anymore.

What? You quoted me and claim "this is the complete opposite of the truth", then now you said I moved the goalposts?

"not even sure what you're arguing about", I am arguing that you said it is complete opposite of the truth. You made a statement, I asked for evidence, and I counted your evidence. Either you provide other evidence on my original statement "Depth building is usually after you have a performing core", or point out what my explanation is wrong.