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The benefits of winning

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The benefits of winning 

Post#1 » by earthtone » Sat Mar 15, 2025 7:29 pm

A couple disclaimers up top: The first thing to get out of the way is yes, I understand the pros of having a high draft pick and that 'tanking' is the best way to secure a high draft pick. I also think the team should be aiming to avoid the play-ins/offs, and oddly enough would be disappointed if we end up in a playoff spot. With that being said, I'm losing any sleep over our recent wins, and I think that even if they hurt our tank-standings, they bode well for the future of the team.

Looking back to the dog days of last season, we were consistently running out lineups comprised of sub-NBA level players. Javon Freeman-Liberty, Jordan Nwora, Jahmi'us Ramsey, Kobi Simmons, Johntay Porter, Malik Williams, Mo Gueye, Marquis Nowell, and Kira Lewis Jr haven't played a single minute of NBA basketball this season. DJ Carton played 33 minutes early in the season for the Raptors before suffering an injury, and hasn't played a minute since. Jalen McDaniels has played 7 minutes for the Wizards this year. That's 11 players from our roster last season that have combined for a grand total of 40 NBA minutes, and 0 NBA roster spots this year.

That same situation hasn't been playing out with our line-ups this year. We restocked our depth in essentially one offseason by adding three draft picks that project to be at least NBA-calibre rotation players from what they've shown as rookies, and a raw, high-ceiling prospect of the type never available at 57th overall, who's produced well in his G-League minutes.

Our auxiliary crop of two-ways in Jamison Battle, Jared Rhoden, AJ Lawson, and Orlando Robinson have taken advantage of the opportunity, and look to have a very good chance of carving out roster spots next year, whether it's on the Raptors or elsewhere in the league. At least two of these players will likely be on the roster next year, and having guys take advantage of their opportunities and says good things about them individually, and the Raptors organization as a whole. To quote Jared Rhoden:
"It's a testament to the organization and the confidence they instill in you. The environment that they provide is very high energy, very loyal. It's very easy to communicate, very easy to fit in, and I think that makes it easy to play. When you go out on the floor you just feel connected with everybody."


Even though many of our most interesting prospects have been dealing with injury, the next-man-up philosophy has translated to the 2nd round picks and two-ways, and players like Jamal Shead have taken the opportunity to nail down their spot in the organization for years to come. To quote Jakob:
It's been impressive to watch. Very mature for his age. I think the development and the boost in confidence... you just see he has a different presence on the court now than he did earlier in the season. Which, obviously everyone goes through that process... but I think he managed to do it very quickly and he's made steps forward that I've not seen a lot of rookies make. He's in a legit, kinda leadership role in his rookie year, which is what you want from your point guards. Seeing those signs in him early is really positive and a good sign for the future. "


"We've made great strides this year in the way we want to play basketball and the way everyone's bought into it... it's unique in the NBA. The amount of aggressiveness, the amount of energy everyone's putting out on the court.


Winning games is a symptom of good coaching and talented players, and the fact that we're putting our players in dis-advantageous situations and still managing to win games bodes well for the future IMO. We may not be the best at tanking, but we're doing an excellent job rebuilding, and I place more value in that than fretting over the quantity of ping-pong balls. Adding Brandon Ingram and a Top-10 pick to this core is exciting and we're in a good place as a team no matter how the lottery draw goes.
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Re: The benefits of winning 

Post#2 » by ArthurVandelay » Sat Mar 15, 2025 7:50 pm

End of day it comes down to talent and how it meshes.

Everything else is a narrative based off the record. How’s that HEAT culture looking now?

The Raptors have more talent than they’ve had since championship imo. Top 6 in east next year.
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Re: The benefits of winning 

Post#3 » by Thaddy » Sat Mar 15, 2025 7:52 pm

0 benefits of winning in the regular season when you've been eliminated from the playoffs.

We should be training Barnes to be a better scorer. Barnes and scrubs, if Barnes wills us into a win as a first option I'd be okay with that.

Walter, Shead, etc making game winners? They still role players lol who cares?
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Re: The benefits of winning 

Post#4 » by DelAbbot » Sat Mar 15, 2025 7:56 pm

Look at the lineups we are winning against

This narrative of permanent level up of our coaching and system will be tested as soon as the first 20 games of next season.
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Re: The benefits of winning 

Post#5 » by Thaddy » Sat Mar 15, 2025 8:18 pm

ArthurVandelay wrote:End of day it comes down to talent and how it meshes.

Everything else is a narrative based off the record. How’s that HEAT culture looking now?

The Raptors have more talent than they’ve had since championship imo. Top 6 in east next year.

It's gonna be a losing record unless we get Flagg or Harper, at least 2 guys break out, and Ingram takes his game to another level.
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Re: The benefits of winning 

Post#6 » by pingpongrac » Sat Mar 15, 2025 8:19 pm

Shead and Mogbo have both impressed as 2nd round rookies and they've noticeably improved throughout the season while the two-way and 10-day players have all been playing very well with increased minutes over the past few weeks. Add 3-4 of those players to a core of Scottie, Ingram, Quickley, Barrett and Poeltl + a (more than likely) top 10 pick with Gradey, Agbaji and JKW off the bench and suddenly we're cooking. We have a lot of players that can contribute in various ways and we have some specialists as well that can give 8-10 minutes here and there when we need a bit of a boost.

We're probably winning 45-50 games next season assuming relatively good health, but we also have some flexibility to make big moves in the future as we have some depth for the first time in 5+ years which makes an all-in move (or two) a lot more realistic. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the majority of our current core isn't on the team 24 months from now and we're in a position to contend, but I also think there is a way to contend with our current core with a few improvements (if Scottie can improve his offensive efficiency on lower usage, Barrett continues to try on the defensive end, more consistent production from Gradey/JKW, etc.). A lot of people are underrating what a guy like Ingram can do for this roster and I'm excited to see him on the court whenever that may be.
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Re: The benefits of winning 

Post#7 » by Tor_Raps » Sat Mar 15, 2025 8:25 pm

People celebrating these games against teams who flat out suck or are blatantly tanking must have those purple participation ribbons plastered all over their houses loll.
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Re: The benefits of winning 

Post#8 » by earthtone » Sat Mar 15, 2025 8:28 pm

Thaddy wrote:0 benefits of winning in the regular season when you've been eliminated from the playoffs.

We should be training Barnes to be a better scorer. Barnes and scrubs, if Barnes wills us into a win as a first option I'd be okay with that.

Walter, Shead, etc making game winners? They still role players lol who cares?

Good teams need role players, we've been lacking role players for the last few seasons. If you're developing a 19th and 45th pick into impactful role players, thats a good season
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Re: The benefits of winning 

Post#9 » by earthtone » Sat Mar 15, 2025 8:32 pm

pingpongrac wrote:Shead and Mogbo have both impressed as 2nd round rookies and they've noticeably improved throughout the season while the two-way and 10-day players have all been playing very well with increased minutes over the past few weeks. Add 3-4 of those players to a core of Scottie, Ingram, Quickley, Barrett and Poeltl + a (more than likely) top 10 pick with Gradey, Agbaji and JKW off the bench and suddenly we're cooking. We have a lot of players that can contribute in various ways and we have some specialists as well that can give 8-10 minutes here and there when we need a bit of a boost.

We're probably winning 45-50 games next season assuming relatively good health, but we also have some flexibility to make big moves in the future as we have some depth for the first time in 5+ years which makes an all-in move (or two) a lot more realistic. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the majority of our current core isn't on the team 24 months from now and we're in a position to contend, but I also think there is a way to contend with our current core with a few improvements (if Scottie can improve his offensive efficiency on lower usage, Barrett continues to try on the defensive end, more consistent production from Gradey/JKW, etc.). A lot of people are underrating what a guy like Ingram can do for this roster and I'm excited to see him on the court whenever that may be.

I'd be pretty shocked if most of the core still isn't here in 24 months, but aside from that I agree with the rest of the sentiment. The state of our roster now vs at the start of the 2023 season is leaps and bounds better, and we still haven't seen Ingram play a minute as a Raptor.

It's too early to make an long-term pronouncements after a rookie season, but when we've had great early returns from the 19th, 31th, 45th, and 57th picks last year, I'm not too stressed about the difference between 5th and 9th this year.
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Re: The benefits of winning 

Post#10 » by Thaddy » Sat Mar 15, 2025 8:39 pm

earthtone wrote:
Thaddy wrote:0 benefits of winning in the regular season when you've been eliminated from the playoffs.

We should be training Barnes to be a better scorer. Barnes and scrubs, if Barnes wills us into a win as a first option I'd be okay with that.

Walter, Shead, etc making game winners? They still role players lol who cares?

Good teams need role players, we've been lacking role players for the last few seasons. If you're developing a 19th and 45th pick into impactful role players, thats a good season

Good teams need all stars. We currently have none. We need top end talent. You can't turn crap into gold.
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Re: The benefits of winning 

Post#11 » by KL78192020 » Sat Mar 15, 2025 8:40 pm

If we were beating talent teams sure, but they are beating g league rosters. This means nothing.
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Re: The benefits of winning 

Post#12 » by pingpongrac » Sat Mar 15, 2025 8:46 pm

earthtone wrote:
pingpongrac wrote:Shead and Mogbo have both impressed as 2nd round rookies and they've noticeably improved throughout the season while the two-way and 10-day players have all been playing very well with increased minutes over the past few weeks. Add 3-4 of those players to a core of Scottie, Ingram, Quickley, Barrett and Poeltl + a (more than likely) top 10 pick with Gradey, Agbaji and JKW off the bench and suddenly we're cooking. We have a lot of players that can contribute in various ways and we have some specialists as well that can give 8-10 minutes here and there when we need a bit of a boost.

We're probably winning 45-50 games next season assuming relatively good health, but we also have some flexibility to make big moves in the future as we have some depth for the first time in 5+ years which makes an all-in move (or two) a lot more realistic. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the majority of our current core isn't on the team 24 months from now and we're in a position to contend, but I also think there is a way to contend with our current core with a few improvements (if Scottie can improve his offensive efficiency on lower usage, Barrett continues to try on the defensive end, more consistent production from Gradey/JKW, etc.). A lot of people are underrating what a guy like Ingram can do for this roster and I'm excited to see him on the court whenever that may be.

I'd be pretty shocked if most of the core still isn't here in 24 months, but aside from that I agree with the rest of the sentiment. The state of our roster now vs at the start of the 2023 season is leaps and bounds better, and we still haven't seen Ingram play a minute as a Raptor.

It's too early to make an long-term pronouncements after a rookie season, but when we've had great early returns from the 19th, 31th, 45th, and 57th picks last year, I'm not too stressed about the difference between 5th and 9th this year.


Let me clarify that I also think the majority of the core is still here by the end of the 26/27 season. What I meant is that the option to send out two of Barrett, IQ and Poeltl (or potentially even Ingram or Scottie) along with some additional salary filler for a clear upgrade is there now whereas that hasn’t been much of an option due to a complete lack of depth the years prior. If we have a good season next year, I think there is a strong possibility that we make a big move though either at the deadline or in the offseason.
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Re: The benefits of winning 

Post#13 » by mtcan » Sat Mar 15, 2025 8:54 pm

Thaddy wrote:
earthtone wrote:
Thaddy wrote:0 benefits of winning in the regular season when you've been eliminated from the playoffs.

We should be training Barnes to be a better scorer. Barnes and scrubs, if Barnes wills us into a win as a first option I'd be okay with that.

Walter, Shead, etc making game winners? They still role players lol who cares?

Good teams need role players, we've been lacking role players for the last few seasons. If you're developing a 19th and 45th pick into impactful role players, thats a good season

Good teams need all stars. We currently have none. We need top end talent. You can't turn crap into gold.

We have one all-star in Scottie. We have another all-star in BI. IQ and RJ are both capable of dropping 20-25 points, 5-6 assists and 6 rebounds a game...and on a winning team, they would be considered fringe all-star possibilities.

Scottie, BI and RJ are recent and high lottery picks.

We have a stable of good, young and hungry guys that are improving.

This isn't all doom-and-gloom.
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Re: The benefits of winning 

Post#14 » by Tripod » Sat Mar 15, 2025 9:11 pm

KL78192020 wrote:If we were beating talent teams sure, but they are beating g league rosters. This means nothing.

Oh....so why all the bitching when we won 8 of 10 against:

GSW, Celtics, Atl×2, Magic, and Clippers?

That looks like 6 wins vs non gleague rosters. Weird.
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Re: The benefits of winning 

Post#15 » by Tripod » Sat Mar 15, 2025 9:16 pm

And look what Shead said 4 days ago,


"The first thing Coach (Darko Rajaković) talked to me about was just being a junkie with film," Shead said. "Noticing where you can attack, where you can't attack, fouls here and there, just little things but paying attention to every single detail and trying to figure out how I can impact that. I think I'm figuring it out a little bit more but I still have a lot to learn. It is Year 1. There are a lot of tricks and stuff that I can learn from a lot of guys."

"They make my life a lot easier,(vets)" Shead said. "Getting the ball to Jak' in that half-circle area is an automatic assist; I just got to figure out how to get it to him. Just learning little things about all of the guys I'm looking forward to playing with next year, and also trying to elevate all of the guys around. We're trying to make each other better."
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Re: The benefits of winning 

Post#16 » by ciueli » Sat Mar 15, 2025 9:35 pm

mtcan wrote:
Thaddy wrote:
earthtone wrote:Good teams need role players, we've been lacking role players for the last few seasons. If you're developing a 19th and 45th pick into impactful role players, thats a good season

Good teams need all stars. We currently have none. We need top end talent. You can't turn crap into gold.

We have one all-star in Scottie. We have another all-star in BI. IQ and RJ are both capable of dropping 20-25 points, 5-6 assists and 6 rebounds a game...and on a winning team, they would be considered fringe all-star possibilities.

Scottie, BI and RJ are recent and high lottery picks.

We have a stable of good, young and hungry guys that are improving.

This isn't all doom-and-gloom.


There's a big difference between "was an All-Star once 5 years ago" or "was an All-Star once as an injury replacement" and "is a perennial All-Star". We have the former two, we really need the latter. Even if Ingram beats the odds and gets back to being an All-Star again it just means we have to max him in 2 years when he's 30, basically a repeat of the situation we were in with Pascal.
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Re: The benefits of winning 

Post#17 » by ArthurVandelay » Sat Mar 15, 2025 9:43 pm

ciueli wrote:
mtcan wrote:
Thaddy wrote:Good teams need all stars. We currently have none. We need top end talent. You can't turn crap into gold.

We have one all-star in Scottie. We have another all-star in BI. IQ and RJ are both capable of dropping 20-25 points, 5-6 assists and 6 rebounds a game...and on a winning team, they would be considered fringe all-star possibilities.

Scottie, BI and RJ are recent and high lottery picks.

We have a stable of good, young and hungry guys that are improving.

This isn't all doom-and-gloom.


There's a big difference between "was an All-Star once 5 years ago" or "was an All-Star once as an injury replacement" and "is a perennial All-Star". We have the former two, we really need the latter. Even if Ingram beats the odds and gets back to being an All-Star again it just means we have to max him in 2 years when he's 30, basically a repeat of the situation we were in with Pascal.


The problem with Siakam was there was no depth or team. Plus the get paid or I don’t want to be here attitude from the core. If Ingram is an all-star in 2 years I think that is a good problem to have.

Ingram has had all star numbers. Issue has been his health, his teammates health, and playing on crappy teams (usually due to injuries).
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Re: The benefits of winning 

Post#18 » by Thaddy » Sat Mar 15, 2025 10:09 pm

ArthurVandelay wrote:
ciueli wrote:
mtcan wrote:We have one all-star in Scottie. We have another all-star in BI. IQ and RJ are both capable of dropping 20-25 points, 5-6 assists and 6 rebounds a game...and on a winning team, they would be considered fringe all-star possibilities.

Scottie, BI and RJ are recent and high lottery picks.

We have a stable of good, young and hungry guys that are improving.

This isn't all doom-and-gloom.


There's a big difference between "was an All-Star once 5 years ago" or "was an All-Star once as an injury replacement" and "is a perennial All-Star". We have the former two, we really need the latter. Even if Ingram beats the odds and gets back to being an All-Star again it just means we have to max him in 2 years when he's 30, basically a repeat of the situation we were in with Pascal.


The problem with Siakam was there was no depth or team. Plus the get paid or I don’t want to be here attitude from the core. If Ingram is an all-star in 2 years I think that is a good problem to have.

Ingram has had all star numbers. Issue has been his health, his teammates health, and playing on crappy teams (usually due to injuries).

That's a hard dose of kool-aid bro pass me some.

Barnes isn't a perennial all star, non of these guys are, look up how many perennial all stars show up after being 25 years old and multiple years in the league :lol:

We should be tanking harder than ever and it's not that hard! Barnes number 1 option, number 2 is Dick, then rest IQ/RJ since they are non all stars and we can't get in trouble for that.

Boucher has been benched, Lawson, and these other scrubs are kings of the scrubs so bench them too. Release them and sign crappy 10 day players to get a "look" and we lose a ton of games.

The difference between a top 5 pick and a top 10 pick is huge. If you lived through the TRoss and DeRozan days you'll know it's the difference between a generational and non factor player.
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Re: The benefits of winning 

Post#19 » by mtcan » Sat Mar 15, 2025 10:45 pm

Thaddy wrote:
ArthurVandelay wrote:
ciueli wrote:
There's a big difference between "was an All-Star once 5 years ago" or "was an All-Star once as an injury replacement" and "is a perennial All-Star". We have the former two, we really need the latter. Even if Ingram beats the odds and gets back to being an All-Star again it just means we have to max him in 2 years when he's 30, basically a repeat of the situation we were in with Pascal.


The problem with Siakam was there was no depth or team. Plus the get paid or I don’t want to be here attitude from the core. If Ingram is an all-star in 2 years I think that is a good problem to have.

Ingram has had all star numbers. Issue has been his health, his teammates health, and playing on crappy teams (usually due to injuries).

That's a hard dose of kool-aid bro pass me some.

Barnes isn't a perennial all star, non of these guys are, look up how many perennial all stars show up after being 25 years old and multiple years in the league :lol:

We should be tanking harder than ever and it's not that hard! Barnes number 1 option, number 2 is Dick, then rest IQ/RJ since they are non all stars and we can't get in trouble for that.

Boucher has been benched, Lawson, and these other scrubs are kings of the scrubs so bench them too. Release them and sign crappy 10 day players to get a "look" and we lose a ton of games.

The difference between a top 5 pick and a top 10 pick is huge. If you lived through the TRoss and DeRozan days you'll know it's the difference between a generational and non factor player.

Too soon to tell. Not all perennial all-stars start that way in their early 20s. This team needs to play together before you can draw that conclusion. No reason to believe that this team won't be in the playoff race next season and so we will probably see one or two guys as all-stars.

Scottie being an all-star before reaching his prime. You can bet that there will be more appearances in years to come.

BI already been an all-star and based on his skill set...no reason why he couldn't get there again. He's still just entering his prime. Availability and team success will determine if he is an all-star again as a Raptor.

Guys in the top 10 in this draft...same thing. Can't say for sure any of them are perennial all-stars and TBH...the chances of them being perennial all-stars are about the same as Scottie/RJ/BI/IQ...in other words...we just have to wait and watch.

Once again...team success plays into whether or not a guy gets all-star consideration. We won't know if these guys are perennial all-stars until we start winning...and that goes for most guys not named Lebron James.
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Re: The benefits of winning 

Post#20 » by Tripod » Sat Mar 15, 2025 11:14 pm

Thaddy wrote:
ArthurVandelay wrote:
ciueli wrote:
There's a big difference between "was an All-Star once 5 years ago" or "was an All-Star once as an injury replacement" and "is a perennial All-Star". We have the former two, we really need the latter. Even if Ingram beats the odds and gets back to being an All-Star again it just means we have to max him in 2 years when he's 30, basically a repeat of the situation we were in with Pascal.


The problem with Siakam was there was no depth or team. Plus the get paid or I don’t want to be here attitude from the core. If Ingram is an all-star in 2 years I think that is a good problem to have.

Ingram has had all star numbers. Issue has been his health, his teammates health, and playing on crappy teams (usually due to injuries).

That's a hard dose of kool-aid bro pass me some.

Barnes isn't a perennial all star, non of these guys are, look up how many perennial all stars show up after being 25 years old and multiple years in the league :lol:

We should be tanking harder than ever and it's not that hard! Barnes number 1 option, number 2 is Dick, then rest IQ/RJ since they are non all stars and we can't get in trouble for that.

Boucher has been benched, Lawson, and these other scrubs are kings of the scrubs so bench them too. Release them and sign crappy 10 day players to get a "look" and we lose a ton of games.

The difference between a top 5 pick and a top 10 pick is huge. If you lived through the TRoss and DeRozan days you'll know it's the difference between a generational and non factor player.

What we should do is trade BI, Barnes, IQ, Yak, RJ, Ochai....think of all the picks we could get.

Then with tank commander Gradey, we will finish bottom 2 next year for sure is a better draft because every year, next year's draft is better.

We could have 8-9 future 1st + our own +Gradey, Walter, Mogbo, Shead, Lawson, Rhoden, Chomche. That's a proper rebuild that you can get excited about. Am I right? Stupid Masai.

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