RealGM

I was listening to the most recent Ringer NBA show and they brought up some good points:

- Replacing Siakam with Ingram is a downgrade and hes going to be 28 yrs old before the season starts.

- We are basically trying to build an offense around Ingram + Barnes (challenging/concerns) to try and be a 6th seed.

- We arent likely to add anymore top prospects to the core now that we'll be "middling playoff team" territory in the weak East.

When looking at this big picture it does seem abit pessimistic, and that this was a poorly executed rebuild + low ceiling plan.

I know it gets billed as "asset accumulation" but its actually not that simple as these decisions basically effect your entire direction.

Does it not seem that Masai again just decided on taking shortcuts when he finally had the chance to rebuild properly + with patience?

It actually won't be surprising if we get burned and suffer the consequences of these "team building shortcuts."

Can anyone provide some realistic framework to becoming a contender?

It does seem like somewhat of a depressing outlook from a "building a contender" big picture perspective.

We'll see how we look after the offseason. I know the Pacers run to the Finals is a big inspiration right now

Potential wrote:We'll see how we look after the offseason. I know the Pacers run to the Finals is a big inspiration right now

Ya the thing with the Pacers though they were pretty deep and loaded with depth + promising prospects /young guys

Haliburton, Nembhard, Nesmith, Mathurin, Walker etc.

and quality vets now - Turner, Siakam, Toppin

I know not all of them are contributing as part of the current run right now but I remember looking at their roster thinking "damn they might be good now and in the future theyre loaded with quality talent and potential"

Are our prospects of the same quality?

Yeah, some of us having been saying all of this for years, they're betting everything on Ingram's questionable health record now because they are desperate. Since the title the Raptors have made the playoffs twice in 6 years and won a single playoff round, and that was with good chunks of title team still mostly intact back in 2020. That's a poor record for any highly paid executive that is looking for a new contract like Masai and Bobby are, there's immense pressure on them to get this team back into the playoffs and show things are moving forward in a positive direction.

Potential wrote:We'll see how we look after the offseason. I know the Pacers run to the Finals is a big inspiration right now

And who is the Raptors Haliburton?

KL78192020 wrote:

Potential wrote:We'll see how we look after the offseason. I know the Pacers run to the Finals is a big inspiration right now

And who is the Raptors Haliburton?

Scottie

Again, there are so many variables:

1) Does Scottie continue to improve?

2) Does Quickley emerge as a legit top tier starting point guard. He was hurt for most of last season so we barely got to see him.

3) How does the #9 pick pan out? Is it a bust, is it a role player, is it a good starter or do we find a diamond in the rough like a Booker or a Mitchell or a George or Kawhi or a Giannis that all went in the 9-15 range?

4) Do Walters and Gradey continue to improve?

ciueli wrote:Yeah, some of us having been saying all of this for years, they're betting everything on Ingram's questionable health record now because they are desperate. Since the title the Raptors have made the playoffs twice in 6 years and won a single playoff round, and that was with good chunks of title team still mostly intact back in 2020. That's a poor record for any highly paid executive that is looking for a new contract like Masai and Bobby are, there's immense pressure on them to get this team back into the playoffs and show things are moving forward in a positive direction.

They've literally done a worse job then the majority of fans would've on this board...

Id say the consensus of fans on here decisions leaned:

- Kept Norm Powell.

- Traded FVV, OG, Siakam earlier when value was higher for better returns.

- Committed to rebuild earlier (we were 5th worse team = Wemby slot before trading for Poeltl, shouldve went full rebuild)

- Not traded multiple 1st round picks for treadmill moves.

-Not traded top 10 pick for Poeltl.

I feel like there's more no Brainer ones.

If they get fired can't say the didn't earn it.

TheGeneral99 wrote:Again, there are so many variables:

1) Does Scottie continue to improve?

2) Does Quickley emerge as a legit top tier starting point guard. He was hurt for most of last season so we barely got to see him.

3) How does the #9 pick pan out? Is it a bust, is it a role player, is it a good starter or do we find a diamond in the rough like a Booker or a Mitchell or a George or Kawhi or a Giannis that all went in the 9-15 range?

4) Do Walters and Gradey continue to improve?

Basically we need 3# to be a homerun for this to workout, who's that guy in our range? (9th overall)

nivisi9 wrote:

TheGeneral99 wrote:Again, there are so many variables:

1) Does Scottie continue to improve?

2) Does Quickley emerge as a legit top tier starting point guard. He was hurt for most of last season so we barely got to see him.

3) How does the #9 pick pan out? Is it a bust, is it a role player, is it a good starter or do we find a diamond in the rough like a Booker or a Mitchell or a George or Kawhi or a Giannis that all went in the 9-15 range?

4) Do Walters and Gradey continue to improve?

Basically we need 3# to be a homerun for this to workout, who's that guy in our range? (9th overall)

I don't know but I mean look at some recent contenders and how it worked for them:

Bucks: drafted Giannis at #15 and Middleton with the #39 pick.
Denver: Drafted Jokic at #42, drafted Murray at #7 and MPJ at #14.
OKC: Shai was the #18 pick, Jalen Williams went #12.
Pacers: Haliburton drafted #12, Siakam drafted #27
Knicks: Brunson drafted #33

So as you can see there are ways we become a great team again, but you need to hit on your draft picks and find these diamonds or you need to make good trades for undervalued players like we did for Lowry in 2013 or like the Knicks signing Brunson a couple years ago.

That Pacers trade of Sabonis for Haliburton and Hield was incredible for them. Haliburton was a good player at the time but nobody predicted he was going to become a superstar.

What everyone fails to remember is that Poeltl is a championship caliber center. All we need is the rest.

Why is this current roster viewed as the final product?

You have to be super high on IQ and BI. Seems the FO is so that’s why they want to move forward with this core.

I think IQ is best served as a sixth man that can close if he’s hot (Isaiah Joe/Wiggins/Boston Rozier) but he isn’t a full time starting PG that you go deep into the playoffs with. I don’t trust the defense or the shot creation for himself in iso or PnR. If he gets a Dort or Caruso on him he’s done for the night. RJ is good but also is a higher usage guy

With the presumed starting 5, I can already see teams zoning us to death and daring Scottie and RJ to shoot. If we’re actually trying to win, we either need our 5 to shoot or have a sniper on the floor along with Scottie/Ingram that takes defensive attention away from those 2 (don’t be surprised if we draft Kon Knueppel if he’s there at 9). Hopefully IQ can be a higher volume C&S 3pt guy being off ball a bit more

We have some holes to fix and rotation minutes to iron out, but we have the assets to make moves and from all accounts most teams are ready for business around draft night

This is the third thread someone has made asking this exact same question. My answer is still the same. The only way we get off the treadmill is if one of our young guys (Scottie, JaKobe, Dick, Shead, whoever we draft this year) makes an unexpected leap towards superstardom. The odds of that happening are very low, but it's our only hope.

billy_hoyle wrote:

KL78192020 wrote:

Potential wrote:We'll see how we look after the offseason. I know the Pacers run to the Finals is a big inspiration right now

And who is the Raptors Haliburton?

Scottie

Would love to be dead wrong but I’m not seeing all nba unless he comes back as a completely different player.

Was literally one of the worst shooters and isolation players in the NBA last year

nivisi9 wrote:

ciueli wrote:Yeah, some of us having been saying all of this for years, they're betting everything on Ingram's questionable health record now because they are desperate. Since the title the Raptors have made the playoffs twice in 6 years and won a single playoff round, and that was with good chunks of title team still mostly intact back in 2020. That's a poor record for any highly paid executive that is looking for a new contract like Masai and Bobby are, there's immense pressure on them to get this team back into the playoffs and show things are moving forward in a positive direction.

They've literally done a worse job then the majority of fans would've on this board...

Id say the consensus of fans on here decisions leaned:

- Kept Norm Powell.

- Traded FVV, OG, Siakam earlier when value was higher for better returns.

- Committed to rebuild earlier (we were 5th worse team = Wemby slot before trading for Poeltl, shouldve went full rebuild)

- Not traded multiple 1st round picks for treadmill moves.

-Not traded top 10 pick for Poeltl.

I feel like there's more no Brainer ones.

If they get fired can't say the didn't earn it.

What were the superior offers we were getting for OG, Siakam, and FVV?

nivisi9 wrote:

ciueli wrote:Yeah, some of us having been saying all of this for years, they're betting everything on Ingram's questionable health record now because they are desperate. Since the title the Raptors have made the playoffs twice in 6 years and won a single playoff round, and that was with good chunks of title team still mostly intact back in 2020. That's a poor record for any highly paid executive that is looking for a new contract like Masai and Bobby are, there's immense pressure on them to get this team back into the playoffs and show things are moving forward in a positive direction.

They've literally done a worse job then the majority of fans would've on this board...

Id say the consensus of fans on here decisions leaned:

- Kept Norm Powell.

- Traded FVV, OG, Siakam earlier when value was higher for better returns.

- Committed to rebuild earlier (we were 5th worse team = Wemby slot before trading for Poeltl, shouldve went full rebuild)

- Not traded multiple 1st round picks for treadmill moves.

-Not traded top 10 pick for Poeltl.

I feel like there's more no Brainer ones.

If they get fired can't say the didn't earn it.

This board would have picked Sugg over Barnes.

That top ten pick ending up being little Rob Dillingham who hopefully one day will be a 6 man. I would have traded Dillingham for a starter in Poeltl.

13 other teams some with better odds didn't win the Wemby lottery. It's called a lottery for a reason.


The year after he left Toronto Norm Powell played 27 games, next year 40, next year 7. He averages under 2 assists a game. Bad defense. 20 million was too much.

Listening to podcasts can be bad for your health. They are trying to get you raging so you tune in.

You can't say replacing Siakam for Ingram was a downgrade because this organization gave Siakam the chances to be that go to guy and he failed. I know there's a lot of Siakam glazin goin on right now and I do hope he wins the championship, but his time was pretty much over and we needed to move on.

Ingram is a low risk high reward move, he's had a good career and getting him out of NO might give him that potential breakout opportunity he is looking for.

You have Scottie Barnes who is expected to get better. IQ who has proven when healthy can have a major impact. Barett has gotten so much better than his NY days

Like someone said above, you then also have a chance of Dick or JaKobe breaking out.

I'm not saying its a championship roster, but you are in a position where you have players in multiple roster spots due for a breakout that can translate to winning. Just BI+Scottie alone sounds intriguing.

These are also very tradeable assets

ciueli wrote:Yeah, some of us having been saying all of this for years, they're betting everything on Ingram's questionable health record now because they are desperate. Since the title the Raptors have made the playoffs twice in 6 years and won a single playoff round, and that was with good chunks of title team still mostly intact back in 2020. That's a poor record for any highly paid executive that is looking for a new contract like Masai and Bobby are, there's immense pressure on them to get this team back into the playoffs and show things are moving forward in a positive direction.

The raptors traded 1sts and some of our best assets (DeMar, JV, Jak, Delon) for an older DPOY caliber C, a 3&D starting 2, and a superstar. Two of three left in free agency.


We literally went all-in and won the championship.

It's disingenuous to use that as some sort of 'arbitrary' start date. This isn't Shapiro taking over for AA, or Lamoriello from Nonis.

ishoy123 wrote:

nivisi9 wrote:

ciueli wrote:Yeah, some of us having been saying all of this for years, they're betting everything on Ingram's questionable health record now because they are desperate. Since the title the Raptors have made the playoffs twice in 6 years and won a single playoff round, and that was with good chunks of title team still mostly intact back in 2020. That's a poor record for any highly paid executive that is looking for a new contract like Masai and Bobby are, there's immense pressure on them to get this team back into the playoffs and show things are moving forward in a positive direction.

They've literally done a worse job then the majority of fans would've on this board...

Id say the consensus of fans on here decisions leaned:

- Kept Norm Powell.

- Traded FVV, OG, Siakam earlier when value was higher for better returns.

- Committed to rebuild earlier (we were 5th worse team = Wemby slot before trading for Poeltl, shouldve went full rebuild)

- Not traded multiple 1st round picks for treadmill moves.

-Not traded top 10 pick for Poeltl.

I feel like there's more no Brainer ones.

If they get fired can't say the didn't earn it.

What were the superior offers we were getting for OG, Siakam, and FVV?

Masai wasn't shopping them.