Does this team have a concerning depth problem? Darko concerns?

[nivisi9]

The Raptors may finally have an intriguing group of young prospects again, as this group has been incredibly impressive so far in summer league.
All while playing both ends relentlessly.

Unfortunately the current roster suggests almost none of them should expect a ton of mins when the season begins due to excessive depth.

there is hardly mins for most of these guys which is a shame.

Currently:

A) starting 5 + Dick + Ochai + Mamu = 8 guys before considering a single player from this summer league team.

B) and all of Walter - CMB - Shead - Mogbo should be getting mins and need them.

C) arguably Chomche + Lawson +Battle+ Martin as well

Are we still making a consultation trade or what?

Isn't one needed just so our young guys can play and develop?

Notable additional considerations

- Anyone else have concerns Darko may be too much of a nice guy/player coach that he might attempt to regularly run an 11 man rotation? -- which isn't the optimal way to run one? (performance + player development)

- Ideally one would hope for a combination of Barnes/ Poeltl/ CMB/ Mogbo occupying the majority of frontcourt minutes this season, however with the impressive improvement/performance/activity/Impactful defensive presence Chomche has displayed so far in summer league does anyone else wish we had passed on Mamu?
Chomche surprisingly looks ready NOW to handle the 5th big/3rd string center spot, and could likely handle 5-10 mins a night in that role. Thoughts?

- If the situation were to present itself --ex. Walter or CMB 2 way performance during the season becomes clearly more impactful then heavy RJ mins impact wise, would anyone feel confident in Darko greatly reducing RJ minutes in wing rotation in favor of either? I don't feel confident in this.

Probably the 1# way an NBA Coach impacts winning is how he runs his NBA rotation, could our excessive depth this year actually turn into a sneaky big problem in terms of overall performance / total wins?
Thoughts on Darko in this context? + additional depth concerns outlined?

[HangTime]

You spread mintues, you increase the intensity.

Deep rotation is a strength. You show confidence in everyone.

Some early gleauge assignments on Raptors off days. There's A lot of minutes to go around

[raptorforlife88]

If we're not making any kind of consolidation trade than the SG position is going to become a real battle for scarce minutes and someone is going to be missing out on development.

I like RJ, but I think he's a problem in terms of this team developing, he's going to swallow minutes and possessions we are better off giving to Ochai (because he probably is a better fit with the starters for winning) and Gradey/Walter (for development and finding out who our SG of the future is).

RJ is probably best suited to come off the bench and play less than 30 minutes a game, but I don't think that's going to happen unfortunately.

Mogbo is probably going to see less time, especially since CMB is a significantly better finisher, and is already likely a better defender. I had a lot of hope for him last year, but unless his offense takes a jump he's probably going to struggle to hang onto his minutes.

Chomche is fine to not see minutes early in the season, nothing wrong with letting him continue to get heavy G-League time and figure out the basics. He can see minutes when injuries, or if there are rest days that happen, and otherwise some spot minutes. He's on a two-way for a reason. The Raptors will extend him for cheap money and have him for the future.

Battle is a plug and play guy who will get minutes when he's needed and that's fine. Lawson and Martin are end of bench depth and development guys strictly, regardless of how well Lawson has played in the summer league, unless RJ gets traded. I think the minutes concern is mostly at SG.

[nivisi9]

If we're not making any kind of consolidation trade than the SG position is going to become a real battle for scarce minutes and someone is going to be missing out on development.

I like RJ, but I think he's a problem in terms of this team developing, he's going to swallow minutes and possessions we are better off giving to Ochai (because he probably is a better fit with the starters for winning) and Gradey/Walter (for development and finding out who our SG of the future is).

RJ is probably best suited to come off the bench and play less than 30 minutes a game, but I don't think that's going to happen unfortunately.

Mogbo is probably going to see less time, especially since CMB is a significantly better finisher, and is already likely a better defender. I had a lot of hope for him last year, but unless his offense takes a jump he's probably going to struggle to hang onto his minutes.

Chomche is fine to not see minutes early in the season, nothing wrong with letting him continue to get heavy G-League time and figure out the basics. He can see minutes when injuries, or if there are rest days that happen, and otherwise some spot minutes. He's on a two-way for a reason. The Raptors will extend him for cheap money and have him for the future.

Battle is a plug and play guy who will get minutes when he's needed and that's fine. Lawson and Martin are end of bench depth and development guys strictly, regardless of how well Lawson has played in the summer league, unless RJ gets traded. I think the minutes concern is mostly at SG.

hit it right on the head, I think this is the main reason he's being shopped so aggressively..

whats even more impactful then his lack of defense, shooting, efficiency, overall impact on winning could be his presence and usage being detrimental towards some of our intriguing young guys who COULD develop into important core pieces.

We are NOT paying RJ, so its already been decided he is not one of them for the future..

how do they handle that this season if he isn't dealt prior?

[Los_29]

I like what RJ has done here but he’s the odd man out. Starting lineup is better served with a guy like Ochai who can hit the three and defend and doesn’t need the ball in his hands. Then you’d have plenty of minutes for Shead, Walter and Dick.

[VanWest82]

No. We want epic training camp battles that carry over into regular season that makes things so competitive guys actually improve, or carry forward the motivation to improve throughout the season and ongoing. None of our young guys have earned the right to not get pushed for playing time.

[nivisi9]

You spread mintues, you increase the intensity.

Deep rotation is a strength. You show confidence in everyone.

Some early gleauge assignments on Raptors off days. There's A lot of minutes to go around

spread the minutes around, no way! really? great insight!

we all should've thought of that one..

The discussion is about having at least 12 guys who require rotation minutes and their not being enough minutes..

[YogurtProducer]

You spread mintues, you increase the intensity.

Deep rotation is a strength. You show confidence in everyone.

Some early gleauge assignments on Raptors off days. There's A lot of minutes to go around

spread the minutes around, no way! really? great insight!

we all should've thought of that one..

The discussion is about possibly having 11-12 guys who require rotation minutes and their not being enough minutes..

there will be injuries. 1-2 guys a night will sit almost guaranteed.

We had this with the first bench mob - Norman Powell didn’t play every night and he developed fine. Siakam/Poeltl/FVV weren’t every night guys as rookies.

Competition for minutes isn’t a bad thing at all

[Basketball_Jones]

Walter and Shead are definitely the bench mob backcourt I can’t unsee it at this point. Ochai is too good not to play and we have a real need for somebody to guard the 3, even though he’s too small he’s our best option. So yeah, leaves Gradey as kind of the odd one out if RJ isn’t moved. And no way in hell we let Lawson and Battle just walk to another team.

[nivisi9]

You spread mintues, you increase the intensity.

Deep rotation is a strength. You show confidence in everyone.

Some early gleauge assignments on Raptors off days. There's A lot of minutes to go around

spread the minutes around, no way! really? great insight!

we all should've thought of that one..

The discussion is about possibly having 11-12 guys who require rotation minutes and their not being enough minutes..

there will be injuries. 1-2 guys a night will sit almost guaranteed.

We had this with the first bench mob - Norman Powell didn’t play every night and he developed fine. Siakam/Poeltl/FVV weren’t every night guys as rookies.

Competition for minutes isn’t a bad thing at all

there is 12 guys who need minutes, the bottom third including Walter - CMB - Shead - Mogbo..

this is without even giving a thought to 13-16 which include Chomche + Lawson +Battle+ Martin who all have decent argument for mins as well..

its not as simple as "spread the mins around, someone might get hurt" is the point

[AbC?]

I would consider all of the following largely inconsequential:
- Mamu
- Shead
- Mogbo
- Battle
- Chomche
- Lawson
- Martin

Like, maybe you get a couple decent rotation players if we’re lucky out of that bunch. But until they really stand out in real games none have done enough to factor into team building decisions. And if they’re good enough to merit greater minutes it’ll be apparent in all the other contexts the team observes them.

[nivisi9]

I would consider all of the following largely inconsequential:
- Mamu
- Shead
- Mogbo
- Battle
- Chomche
- Lawson

Like, maybe you get a couple decent rotation players if we’re lucky out of that bunch. But until they really stand out in real games none have done enough to factor into team building decisions.

fair, but thats more of a bigger picture question..they all factor into next seasons rotations in various capacities (besides possibly lawson who might be the best player in all of summer league so far)

[nivisi9]

spread the minutes around, no way! really? great insight!

we all should've thought of that one..

The discussion is about possibly having 11-12 guys who require rotation minutes and their not being enough minutes..

there will be injuries. 1-2 guys a night will sit almost guaranteed.

We had this with the first bench mob - Norman Powell didn’t play every night and he developed fine. Siakam/Poeltl/FVV weren’t every night guys as rookies.

Competition for minutes isn’t a bad thing at all

there is 12 guys who need minutes, the bottom third including Walter - CMB - Shead - Mogbo..

this is without even giving a thought to 13-16 which include Chomche + Lawson +Battle+ Martin who all have decent argument for mins as well..

its not as simple as "spread the mins around, someone might get hurt" is the point

there are 240 minutes total available in a game.

our top 12 include:
Quickley/ RJ/ Ingram / Barnes / Poeltl / Dick / Ochai /Mamu /Walter/ CMB / Shead / Mogbo

players 13-16
Battle / Chomche / Martin / Lawson

Perspective using averages:

5 starters at 35 mins + 3 bench players at 20 mins a night = roughly all available minutes

Thats 8 players total

Making more sense now why its an important consideration?

+ could be a potential problem?

+ impact player development?

+ Impact winning if not managed properly?

+ requires managing personalities/egos/team morale if you have a roster with too many players expecting and/or deserving of minutes potentially?

[Psubs]

Walter and Shead are definitely the bench mob backcourt I can’t unsee it at this point. Ochai is too good not to play and we have a real need for somebody to guard the 3, even though he’s too small he’s our best option. So yeah, leaves Gradey as kind of the odd one out if RJ isn’t moved. And no way in hell we let Lawson and Battle just walk to another team.

Shead and Martin. Jakobe should be the starting SG.

[nivisi9]

Walter and Shead are definitely the bench mob backcourt I can’t unsee it at this point. Ochai is too good not to play and we have a real need for somebody to guard the 3, even though he’s too small he’s our best option. So yeah, leaves Gradey as kind of the odd one out if RJ isn’t moved. And no way in hell we let Lawson and Battle just walk to another team.

great breakdown and this is exactly the point...

if shead + walter = guaranteed bench guard unit and Ochai is to good (coming off season 50% fg/40% 3pt and + defense) to not be included with them then..

well what about Gradey Dick? that doesnt make much sense now does it?

Its also bigger then just squeezing guys minutes but actually GIVING THEM A ROLE..especially with so many young guys in their important timeframes of their development phase..and squeezing minutes may not even be possible for everyone currently

and like you said doesnt make sense to let Battle walk when he's been so good when given opportunity, and has most valuable bench skill there is (volume 3pt shooting at high efficiency on the wing)

Are we giving up on Mogbo after 1 season? though somewhat disappointing was ELITE defensively as the most valuable defensive archetype (especially come playoff time) WING SCORER STOPPER.

Dont forget about CMB who was the 9th pick and will likely factor into "wing" minutes as well (remember its mostly a position less game now)

And yes it appears RJ can reasonably be perceived as odd man out but he's still here and will be expecting 30-35 mins a night...

so there are some important issues needing to be addressed sooner then later if not asap.

[WiggOuts]

The team absolutely has way too many pieces and its obvious, whats not obvious is who you consolidate. Everyone is saying RJ is the odd man out, which he probably is, but is there a deal that improves the team that includes him? I don't get that feeling. Any deal including RJ will have to include someone else otherwise its not consolidating. I honestly think they were trying to move him for Ayton and it fell through, it made sense for both sides to a degree. I'm not sure they have any deals on the table right now which would be concerning. We still need another big

[basketballto]

there will be injuries. 1-2 guys a night will sit almost guaranteed.

We had this with the first bench mob - Norman Powell didn’t play every night and he developed fine. Siakam/Poeltl/FVV weren’t every night guys as rookies.

Competition for minutes isn’t a bad thing at all

there is 12 guys who need minutes, the bottom third including Walter - CMB - Shead - Mogbo..

this is without even giving a thought to 13-16 which include Chomche + Lawson +Battle+ Martin who all have decent argument for mins as well..

its not as simple as "spread the mins around, someone might get hurt" is the point

there are 240 minutes total available in a game.

our top 12 include:
Quickley/ RJ/ Ingram / Barnes / Poeltl / Dick / Ochai /Mamu /Walter/ CMB / Shead / Mogbo

players 13-16
Battle / Chomche / Martin / Lawson

Perspective using averages:

5 starters at 35 mins + 3 bench players at 20 mins a night = roughly all available minutes

Thats 8 players total

Making more sense now why its an important consideration?

+ could be a potential problem?

+ impact player development?

+ Impact winning if not managed properly?

+ requires managing personalities/egos/team morale if you have a roster with too many players expecting and/or deserving of minutes potentially?

You rest good players against easy teams and give the bench more minutes or on back to back nights.

You don't have 5 starters at 35 minutes a game. Last year most starters were under 30 minutes a game. Someone like RJ lead the team at 32 minutes and those might have to come down.

You won't have 3 guys 20 minutes a game. You'll get 4-6 guys and they will change game to game.

Nothing wrong with playing 5 starters + 5 backups + flipping in an extra sg.

All will be settled when someone takes rj 's job outright.

[kalel123]

First of all, you are not going to survive a regular season with 8-man rotation. Need 10-man rotation with minutes adjusted situationally or due to injuries.

Shead is going to get minutes. Quickley has been fragile as heck up to this point and he's the only PG off the bench.

Unless Dick takes some meaningful step forward, he could lose minutes to Walter. The idea of a dead-eye 3-point shooter is enticing, which is why team has been said to be committed to Dick but if he can't actually do it (and he hasn't) then he serves no purpose. Other things he can do on offense is only nice if he can make his 3's.

Lastly, CMB's not going to lose no minutes to minimum big man (or at least, he shouldn't). This core's long-term success heavily depends on the team's ability to develop CMB who is the product of blatant and shameless tanking they did. He's gotta be one of the first off the bench replacing Ingram, Scottie, or Poeltl as situation warrants. Only way the new guy should play extensive minutes is if you really need a big out there based on matchups and Poeltl can't go.

Does this team need a trade or two? Yes but we should still be able to find some decent minutes for some of our key young guys. Namely Shead and CMB. With Walter, it depends. Don't really care either way with Mogbo at this point. If he develops, fine, you do what you can as there will be some opportunities from injury but not a big deal even if he doesn't.

[DreamTeam09]

This is just another RJ topic, but sorry RJ is currently better than Ochai GD and Walter, point blank period. You guys care about BPA only prior to a draft and then excessively concern about fit when talking about the roster. Dick n Ochai are going to get minutes at back-up SF, Walter is also not guaranteed minutes battle will be in a battle, but all of that is okay. Everyone is under contract for next year & Ochai is a RFA,

Some poster was talking about hypotheticals on Ochai getting offer sheet next year, like look how the RFA's are getting treated this year, we'll be fine, all of a sudden you guys are worried about too much talent when I spent all of last year arguing with some of you guys that this team doesn't suck

[Johnny Bball]

New guys are going to spend most of the year in the G incluinf cmb IMO, and they will still be deep. I think next season, this could become a bigger issue.

Its gonna look worse than it is until the G starts in November.