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Over the last 8 games in which the Raptors went 7-1, the starters have been over water but there's been a worrying trend. Slow starts, especially on defense.

4 man unit of the 4 starters that played every game B. Ingram - R. Barrett - I. Quickley - S. Barnes

First half
B. Ingram - R. Barrett - I. Quickley - S. Barnes
O-RTG 120.5/D-RTG 124.6/Net-RTG -4.1 in 60 minutes
Opp eFG% 60.6%


Second half
B. Ingram - R. Barrett - I. Quickley - S. Barnes
O-RTG 134.1/D-RTG 110.3/Net-RTG +23.8 in 61 minutes
Opp eFG% 46.1%

In aggregate O 127.5/D 117.1/ Net +10.4 and 52.9% eFG% in 121 minutes

probably just sample size. We aren't as bad as the first half stats or as good as the second half stats indicate.

but those second half numbers are extremely impressive

It’s kind of the issue of not having a true PG in the starting lineup. They force-feed Ingram and RJ to start and also have IQ taking long 3s before it goes into Yak or Barnes who are really their best decision makers with the ball.

Some of this can be fixed if they simply slow down the offense a bit and play more organized instead of getting into a marathon with teams who are better at shooting early. The also have a lot of offensive guys and only two guys who play defense in that lineup and this isn’t helped when you’re playing wild on offense leading to easy points for the other team before you can find your defense.

just curious, what's the cause?

Is it spacing?

Tha Cynic wrote:It’s kind of the issue of not having a true PG in the starting lineup. They force-feed Ingram and RJ to start and also have IQ taking long 3s before it goes into Yak or Barnes who are really their best decision makers with the ball.

Some of this can be fixed if they simply slow down the offense a bit and play more organized instead of getting into a marathon with teams who are better at shooting early. The also have a lot of offensive guys and only two guys who play defense in that lineup and this isn’t helped when you’re playing wild on offense leading to easy points for the other team before you can find your defense.

Nailed it, as usual.

Tha Cynic wrote:It’s kind of the issue of not having a true PG in the starting lineup. They force-feed Ingram and RJ to start and also have IQ taking long 3s before it goes into Yak or Barnes who are really their best decision makers with the ball.

Some of this can be fixed if they simply slow down the offense a bit and play more organized instead of getting into a marathon with teams who are better at shooting early. The also have a lot of offensive guys and only two guys who play defense in that lineup and this isn’t helped when you’re playing wild on offense leading to easy points for the other team before you can find your defense.

Sure, but they still got a 120ORTG which that lineup, which would be 3rd in the NBA. So it’s hard to really say the offense is leading to bad defence.

It’s also not really 3 point shooting either. Teams are shooting 38% from us against that lineup. Not good, not bad.

However, they’re shooting 74%(!!!!!!!) from 2.

YogurtProducer wrote:

Tha Cynic wrote:It’s kind of the issue of not having a true PG in the starting lineup. They force-feed Ingram and RJ to start and also have IQ taking long 3s before it goes into Yak or Barnes who are really their best decision makers with the ball.

Some of this can be fixed if they simply slow down the offense a bit and play more organized instead of getting into a marathon with teams who are better at shooting early. The also have a lot of offensive guys and only two guys who play defense in that lineup and this isn’t helped when you’re playing wild on offense leading to easy points for the other team before you can find your defense.

Sure, but they still got a 120ORTG which that lineup, which would be 3rd in the NBA. So it’s hard to really say the offense is leading to bad defence.

It’s also not really 3 point shooting either. Teams are shooting 38% from us against that lineup. Not good, not bad.

However, they’re shooting 74%(!!!!!!!) from 2.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-2pt

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-2pt?Period=2

[url]
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-2pt?Period=3[/url]

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-2pt?Period=2

Definitely seems like things tighten up in the 2nd and 4th, likely with more help from defensive adjustments/blended line-ups. It feels like transition D might be off to start games resulting in higher percentages of 2s.

On offense, I don't see any evidence that Barrett or Ingram are getting force fed early. RJ doesn't get many plays run for him at all this year. It's been a pretty consistent talking point out of the team. His USG goes up in the 4th, but is pretty stable early. Poeltl has like a 37% TO ratio in the 1st Q and that plummets afterward. How much of these numbers are really that Poeltl has been mostly bad or had some jekyll and hyde performances from 1st to 2nd half?

ATLTimekeeper wrote:

YogurtProducer wrote:

Tha Cynic wrote:It’s kind of the issue of not having a true PG in the starting lineup. They force-feed Ingram and RJ to start and also have IQ taking long 3s before it goes into Yak or Barnes who are really their best decision makers with the ball.

Some of this can be fixed if they simply slow down the offense a bit and play more organized instead of getting into a marathon with teams who are better at shooting early. The also have a lot of offensive guys and only two guys who play defense in that lineup and this isn’t helped when you’re playing wild on offense leading to easy points for the other team before you can find your defense.

Sure, but they still got a 120ORTG which that lineup, which would be 3rd in the NBA. So it’s hard to really say the offense is leading to bad defence.

It’s also not really 3 point shooting either. Teams are shooting 38% from us against that lineup. Not good, not bad.

However, they’re shooting 74%(!!!!!!!) from 2.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-2pt

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-2pt?Period=2

[url]
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-2pt?Period=3[/url]

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-2pt?Period=2

Definitely seems like things tighten up in the 2nd and 4th, likely with more help from defensive adjustments/blended line-ups. It feels like transition D might be off to start games resulting in higher percentages of 2s.

On offense, I don't see any evidence that Barrett or Ingram are getting force fed early. RJ doesn't get many plays run for him at all this year. It's been a pretty consistent talking point out of the team. His USG goes up in the 4th, but is pretty stable early. Poeltl has like a 37% TO ratio in the 1st Q and that plummets afterward. How much of these numbers are really that Poeltl has been mostly bad or had some jekyll and hyde performances from 1st to 2nd half?

Important to remember our SL has played a whopping 48 first quarter minutes together. We are talking very, very, small sample size.

It doesn't take a lot to drastically skew those numbers.

YogurtProducer wrote:

Tha Cynic wrote:It’s kind of the issue of not having a true PG in the starting lineup. They force-feed Ingram and RJ to start and also have IQ taking long 3s before it goes into Yak or Barnes who are really their best decision makers with the ball.

Some of this can be fixed if they simply slow down the offense a bit and play more organized instead of getting into a marathon with teams who are better at shooting early. The also have a lot of offensive guys and only two guys who play defense in that lineup and this isn’t helped when you’re playing wild on offense leading to easy points for the other team before you can find your defense.

Sure, but they still got a 120ORTG which that lineup, which would be 3rd in the NBA. So it’s hard to really say the offense is leading to bad defence.

It’s also not really 3 point shooting either. Teams are shooting 38% from us against that lineup. Not good, not bad.

However, they’re shooting 74%(!!!!!!!) from 2.

It’s more how they start the game. They do well in the second half when they get settled in better. That’s a pretty good sign though

Tha Cynic wrote:

YogurtProducer wrote:

Tha Cynic wrote:It’s kind of the issue of not having a true PG in the starting lineup. They force-feed Ingram and RJ to start and also have IQ taking long 3s before it goes into Yak or Barnes who are really their best decision makers with the ball.

Some of this can be fixed if they simply slow down the offense a bit and play more organized instead of getting into a marathon with teams who are better at shooting early. The also have a lot of offensive guys and only two guys who play defense in that lineup and this isn’t helped when you’re playing wild on offense leading to easy points for the other team before you can find your defense.

Sure, but they still got a 120ORTG which that lineup, which would be 3rd in the NBA. So it’s hard to really say the offense is leading to bad defence.

It’s also not really 3 point shooting either. Teams are shooting 38% from us against that lineup. Not good, not bad.

However, they’re shooting 74%(!!!!!!!) from 2.

It’s more how they start the game. They do well in the second half when they get settled in better. That’s a pretty good sign though

To be clear, I though that was in the 1Q. Maybe it was when I checked last night, but it certainly is not now

ORTG/DRG/NRTG
1st - 112.4 / 126.9 / -14.5
2nd - 111.4 / 107.1 / +4.2
3rd - 127.8 / 121.4 / +6.4
4th - 112.2 / 100.0 / +12.2
TOT - 117.3 / 117.6 / -0.3

IDK what is wrong with the defense in the 1st and 3rd Q.

YogurtProducer wrote:

Tha Cynic wrote:

YogurtProducer wrote:Sure, but they still got a 120ORTG which that lineup, which would be 3rd in the NBA. So it’s hard to really say the offense is leading to bad defence.

It’s also not really 3 point shooting either. Teams are shooting 38% from us against that lineup. Not good, not bad.

However, they’re shooting 74%(!!!!!!!) from 2.

It’s more how they start the game. They do well in the second half when they get settled in better. That’s a pretty good sign though

To be clear, I though that was in the 1Q. Maybe it was when I checked last night, but it certainly is not now

ORTG/DRG/NRTG
1st - 112.4 / 126.9 / -14.5
2nd - 111.4 / 107.1 / +4.2
3rd - 127.8 / 121.4 / +6.4
4th - 112.2 / 100.0 / +12.2
TOT - 117.3 / 117.6 / -0.3

IDK what is wrong with the defense in the 1st and 3rd Q.

I don’t know. I just went off the OP’s post which indicated that the starting lineup struggles in the first half but does better overall in the second. Just posted what I see when I watch, and nothing more. We do seem to come out trying to get a quick offensive start, which feels rushed, but it’s all anecdotal.

Start Shead/IQ/Ingram/Scottie/Jak

first subs are Shead and Scottie for RJ and CMB. IQ goes back to PG when RJ is in the lineup.

Tha Cynic wrote:It’s kind of the issue of not having a true PG in the starting lineup. They force-feed Ingram and RJ to start and also have IQ taking long 3s before it goes into Yak or Barnes who are really their best decision makers with the ball.

Some of this can be fixed if they simply slow down the offense a bit and play more organized instead of getting into a marathon with teams who are better at shooting early. The also have a lot of offensive guys and only two guys who play defense in that lineup and this isn’t helped when you’re playing wild on offense leading to easy points for the other team before you can find your defense.

Ingram is a guy who can get his shot whenever he's not really a rhythm guy.
They should definitely be starting games with more focus on scottie and maybe some post ups to get the ball moving and guys cutting

YogurtProducer wrote:

Tha Cynic wrote:

YogurtProducer wrote:Sure, but they still got a 120ORTG which that lineup, which would be 3rd in the NBA. So it’s hard to really say the offense is leading to bad defence.

It’s also not really 3 point shooting either. Teams are shooting 38% from us against that lineup. Not good, not bad.

However, they’re shooting 74%(!!!!!!!) from 2.

It’s more how they start the game. They do well in the second half when they get settled in better. That’s a pretty good sign though

To be clear, I though that was in the 1Q. Maybe it was when I checked last night, but it certainly is not now

ORTG/DRG/NRTG
1st - 112.4 / 126.9 / -14.5
2nd - 111.4 / 107.1 / +4.2
3rd - 127.8 / 121.4 / +6.4
4th - 112.2 / 100.0 / +12.2
TOT - 117.3 / 117.6 / -0.3

IDK what is wrong with the defense in the 1st and 3rd Q.

Maybe this is just the team’s depth showing its impact. As the opposition wears down, especially the starters, the depth of the Raps takes over.

I wonder if the difference is turnover driven to an extent because it seems that they have have a lot of very sloppy 1st quarters but overall the team is actually very good at taking care of the ball.

ATLTimekeeper wrote:

YogurtProducer wrote:

Tha Cynic wrote:It’s kind of the issue of not having a true PG in the starting lineup. They force-feed Ingram and RJ to start and also have IQ taking long 3s before it goes into Yak or Barnes who are really their best decision makers with the ball.

Some of this can be fixed if they simply slow down the offense a bit and play more organized instead of getting into a marathon with teams who are better at shooting early. The also have a lot of offensive guys and only two guys who play defense in that lineup and this isn’t helped when you’re playing wild on offense leading to easy points for the other team before you can find your defense.

Sure, but they still got a 120ORTG which that lineup, which would be 3rd in the NBA. So it’s hard to really say the offense is leading to bad defence.

It’s also not really 3 point shooting either. Teams are shooting 38% from us against that lineup. Not good, not bad.

However, they’re shooting 74%(!!!!!!!) from 2.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-2pt

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-2pt?Period=2

[url]
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-2pt?Period=3[/url]

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-2pt?Period=2

Definitely seems like things tighten up in the 2nd and 4th, likely with more help from defensive adjustments/blended line-ups. It feels like transition D might be off to start games resulting in higher percentages of 2s.

On offense, I don't see any evidence that Barrett or Ingram are getting force fed early. RJ doesn't get many plays run for him at all this year. It's been a pretty consistent talking point out of the team. His USG goes up in the 4th, but is pretty stable early. Poeltl has like a 37% TO ratio in the 1st Q and that plummets afterward. How much of these numbers are really that Poeltl has been mostly bad or had some jekyll and hyde performances from 1st to 2nd half?

Probably a lot to do with it. Jak's only averaging 1.2 ppg in 6 mins of play in the 1st quarter this season. Perhaps his back often takes a little while to loosen up which would explain why he gets better as the game goes on?

PushDaRock wrote:

ATLTimekeeper wrote:

YogurtProducer wrote:Sure, but they still got a 120ORTG which that lineup, which would be 3rd in the NBA. So it’s hard to really say the offense is leading to bad defence.

It’s also not really 3 point shooting either. Teams are shooting 38% from us against that lineup. Not good, not bad.

However, they’re shooting 74%(!!!!!!!) from 2.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-2pt

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-2pt?Period=2

[url]
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-2pt?Period=3[/url]

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-2pt?Period=2

Definitely seems like things tighten up in the 2nd and 4th, likely with more help from defensive adjustments/blended line-ups. It feels like transition D might be off to start games resulting in higher percentages of 2s.

On offense, I don't see any evidence that Barrett or Ingram are getting force fed early. RJ doesn't get many plays run for him at all this year. It's been a pretty consistent talking point out of the team. His USG goes up in the 4th, but is pretty stable early. Poeltl has like a 37% TO ratio in the 1st Q and that plummets afterward. How much of these numbers are really that Poeltl has been mostly bad or had some jekyll and hyde performances from 1st to 2nd half?

Probably a lot to do with it. Jak's only averaging 1.2 ppg in 6 mins of play in the 1st quarter this season. Perhaps his back often takes a little while to loosen up which would explain why he gets better as the game goes on?

Matt Bonner said for sure the back gets better as the game goes on. Said no matter how much you try and get it warmed up beforehand, it too real game time. He dealt with a similar issue when playing.

Tripod wrote:Matt Bonner said for sure the back gets better as the game goes on. Said no matter how much you try and get it warmed up beforehand, it too real game time. He dealt with a similar issue when playing.

There's something to be said for how adrenaline functions, after all.

You can chill warm up everything with heat packs and stretching and light mobility and stuff, but there are chemical changes when you really innervate the sympathetic nervous system during game time which just aren't there beforehand.

Tripod wrote:

PushDaRock wrote:

ATLTimekeeper wrote:
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-2pt

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-2pt?Period=2

[url]
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-2pt?Period=3[/url]

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-2pt?Period=2

Definitely seems like things tighten up in the 2nd and 4th, likely with more help from defensive adjustments/blended line-ups. It feels like transition D might be off to start games resulting in higher percentages of 2s.

On offense, I don't see any evidence that Barrett or Ingram are getting force fed early. RJ doesn't get many plays run for him at all this year. It's been a pretty consistent talking point out of the team. His USG goes up in the 4th, but is pretty stable early. Poeltl has like a 37% TO ratio in the 1st Q and that plummets afterward. How much of these numbers are really that Poeltl has been mostly bad or had some jekyll and hyde performances from 1st to 2nd half?

Probably a lot to do with it. Jak's only averaging 1.2 ppg in 6 mins of play in the 1st quarter this season. Perhaps his back often takes a little while to loosen up which would explain why he gets better as the game goes on?

Matt Bonner said for sure the back gets better as the game goes on. Said no matter how much you try and get it warmed up beforehand, it too real game time. He dealt with a similar issue when playing.

That makes sense. Like most of us, i noticed that he starts slow out of the gate, but the longer the game goes on, the better he becomes.