RealGM

Honestly when we reverse back to that pivotal timeframe prior to us trading for Poeltl, and before setting this horrible current treadmill trajectory we are now living..

- At the time we were 5th worse in the league (the draft slot which eventually won Wemby).

- We were basically in the identical spot as the Spurs, they had yet to accumulate any of their elite prospects and we were about to face the reality of a rebuild. Look at everything they did right from that point forward compared to us.

It's honestly shocking when you compile the terrible decisions our Management made especially when considering they are paid to build teams for a living

It's sad when the consensus on decisions from our realgm General Managers on here would greatly outperform everything they have done.

Just review below the collection of poor-decision making during our recent "rebuild timeline" is shockingly terrible:

- 1. Decided against rebuilding that season (2023) despite having the most attractive trade assets at the deadline, traded for Poeltl to go for 9th, worsen draft pick in a deep draft. --- Most fans would've sold that deadline and began rebuild.

- 2. Drafted Gradey Dick after worsen draft pick (2023) chasing the play-in, missing out on ultimate prize Wemby but even other elite prospects near our pick ex. Cason Wallace

- 3. decided on rebuilding the following year when trade assets were expiring + less attractive

- 4. Had traded our 2024 pick in Poeltl deal which turned out being a top 10 pick (huge fail). Could've drafted an actual franchise center such as Edey or Ware.

- 5. Also missed out on adding any other core piece or elite prospect 1st rebuild year (2024) as pick was traded. If we had our pick likely mandate is worse record opening possibilities to elite prospects - Risacher, Sarr, Castle, Clingan, Buzelis etc.

- 6. Received lackluster returns in both OG and Siakam trades, both players performing at max level since leaving.

- 7. Basically 2025 becomes only "tank season" to acquire elite prospects as decision to trade for Ingram essentially signals end of rebuild (terrible team building decision). I see this as one of the low key worst decisions that was made.

It was as if management was tired of losing but also not taking responsibility for the reality of trading their lottery pick in 2024. If that's the reality you created you take responsibility for it and continue to rebuild properly. The correct decision would've been to remain in pure rebuild mode until we acquired a collection of elite /high value prospects. (massive fail).

- 8. accumulation of 2024 lower value prospects/picks now looks like it was some form of prospect compensation dump for trading
2024 top 10 draft pick. Most of these prospects havent even shown bench player ability/nba rotation player - Walter, Mogbo, Shead, Chomche. HUGE FAIL.

- 9. Mentioned Ingram trade basically ended rebuild which included trading Indiana 1st (basically only pick of value from Siakam trade). This pick will most likely now convey as attractive 2026 lottery pick in deep draft -- another missed opportunity to add young elite talent/prospect.

- 10. Overpaid players accessed as franchise core pieces within this "vision" undeservingly: Quickley , Poeltl, Ingram

- 11. Now this team is destined and locked into long term treadmill territory, basically the absolute worse place to be. A team stuck in this situation for years is the absolute lowest form of team building + ultimate fail in terms of performance review.

Its hard to believe how terrible these consecutive team building decisions have been.

We are positioned now, and in our near future, as far away from either Contender or proper rebuild status.

This is without considering teams in the East such as Celtics (Tatum) and Pacers (Haliburton) are definitely better with injury returns, and many other teams with promising young cores likely to improve + have higher ceilings/potential for growth.

Can anyone identify the silver lining in all of this?

I understand the feeling that everything is disastrous when the raptors play poorly but a good lead guard can change a lot for this team.

You mention OG and Siakam playing well, look at what they've had in common. Two of the best point guards in the league. Siakam really isn't moving the needle without adept guard play as we've seen ourselves.

There moments too where I want to hurl dynamite at the squad but then I think of adding someone like Darius Garland. If we could swap IQ and Ochai for Garland, now we have a competitive squad.

Then you can either make a play for someone like Zubac or solidify the Center position with a quality big.

We should've been in a rebuild the day the 4th pick in the 2021 draft fell into our laps.... Since then I barely can enjoy or watch any raptors games/seasons to the fullest.

If we rebuilt after we got fourth and picked Barnes we'd be a lot better off.

We still good though.

Just need another C and a healthy Poeltl. Then we'd likely be top two in the EC. We're still top 6 despite the bad stretch and RJ is out.

Said it many times, our problem is Barnes, he does not worth his contract. Lack of skill and shooting, yet, hardly improved.

How we build around him? Trade for 1st and 2nd options, trade for rim protector and lock down defender, and what else he needs to do? High level energy glue guy should not pay near-max.

Bobby/Masai have made so many boneheaded moves post championship its almost like they lost passion after winning the title and losing Kawhi....I get it you just won a title and lost the player that got you there which would be demoralizing...

But so many mistakes that both deserve to be fired ....You can't fire Masai and hold onto Bobby thinking things will change ....Bobby might be more of the problem because maybe Masai let him make more decisions post title as well...

-Yak trade was a complete joke and set us up for failure...We tank proper that year we either win the lotto like the Spurs did and get Wemby or you have Miller or one of the Thompson twins.

-You don't miss out on the 2024 Draft and we get Edey or Ware like you mentioned....Horrible to miss out on two great young bigs.

-Trading for Thad young (a guy who brought nothing) giving up more draft capital and missing out on another C in Kessler.

-Tank right in 2025 depending on the outcomes of the two previous drafts and who we got....But at least come away with a higher ceiling talent than CMB....I like CMB but we needed a player with a higher ceiling in that draft period...

-We also missed out on that Pelicans trade when they called teams 9-13 offering their 2026 FRP for Queen....What an asset that would have been....Boneheaded move by our FO not accepting that offer ASAP when its offered to you...

-Trading for Ingram is also looking like a mistake because we gave up draft capital to get a player that locks us into team mid even more than what we were before....I love Ingram as a player and a talent but it was way too soon for us to aquire a player like him

-Handing out horrible contracts to players that are not worth the money.....So now if we want to trade these bad contracts we have to give up assets just to get off them...

-Trading all our guys for half the assets they should of gotten by holding them way too long....Losing FVV for nothing, Trading Powell for such a horrible package, Lowry got a crap return....So many blunders man its hard to defend it...

-Building your franchise around Barnes....Hes obviously one of our best players but after this many years with him as the "Guy" He has not done anything with us...He peaked his rookie year....Since then he has not developed into what we thought so a pivot should be made....Hes a 3rd option at best being treated like hes the man...

If you take the time and go through all these horrible blunders that set this franchise back so many years its laughable at how bad its been....We need a new vision and a new Front office....These guys running our team seem to be 10 steps behind every front office in the league and it shows on the court.

Indeed wrote:Said it many times, our problem is Barnes, he does not worth his contract. Lack of skill and shooting, yet, hardly improved.

How we build around him? Trade for 1st and 2nd options, trade for rim protector and lock down defender, and what else he needs to do? High level energy glue guy should not pay near-max.

Yeah we have no way to get the kind of player (s) in the door atm that we would need to bring in for Barnes to be in a proper role to succeed....He is a 3rd option pretending to be a 1st option....We lack any assets to trade since all our young draft picks are busts, or harldy even role player material....Players on overpaid bad contracts....

Barnes the only player we could trade right now to...
1.Get the best possible asset package in return
2.Trading Barnes resets the core and what we are trying to build

We need to get rid of Bobby first though because Scottie is to Bobby what Bargs was to BC....Not comparing the players at all but comparing the way both GMs over value them...

IMO we need a total reset because i can't see a world where the playerswe currently have do anything of significant.

Masai's time was up that's for sure, he was turning into Joe Dumars over time. Bobby is on the clock

It's going to take a new GM to have the balls to make a Barnes trade. I love Scottie and it would kill me to trade him but we **** up his timeline with bad contracts and picks that are too much of projects to develop.

You could get get the Pelicans pick and some good young player from Atlanta for Barnes.

A few things:

1. I'm kind of tired of rehashing it, but the Poeltl trade really was the turning point. I continue to believe it set us back years, and the question of "how many" is really the only thing left for debate. The extension really sealed the deal.

2. I don't know how much of this is fair to lay at Scottie's feet. He's not what you want as a franchise player, but it's not really his fault that the team decided that that's what he would be. He's lacking in a lot of areas, and I'd like to see more consistent effort/intensity from a guy whose job it is to offer those things, but he remains our best player and biggest trade asset, so describing him as "the biggest problem" seems kind of unfair.

3. Trading Scottie seems difficult - not because other teams wouldn't want him, but because we'd have a hard time finding a return that makes sense. Do we trade him for the "future" package of picks and/or high upside guys? Assuming you can find a team that wants to do that, is that what we want to do when the team would have Ingram, Poeltl, IQ, etc. left over? Would we have to give up some of the Scottie assets just to get rid of those guys (IQ and Jak anyway)? If you go the other direction and make him the main piece in a win-now trade, how big would the upgrade have to be to actually help us win now? I'm not holding out for a deal that would swing a championship, but if it doesn't make us favourites to win a round, what would be the point? The other option is trading for a player in a similar situation, just trying to find a better fit. Those are usually harder to predict.

4. I'm not even convinced the Ingram trade was some kind of steal that needed to be done because of the sheer value represented. He's been fairly good and healthy so far, but would we even be able to get expirings and a first for him if we wanted to go in another direction? I'm not sure.

All of this and we kept the guy who was "GM" for most of these decisions. The absolute most generous interpretation of that would be that Masai was responsible for the overall vision (bad), and Bobby handled the transactions (mostly fine from a value standpoint), but even then, it's a tough sell.

Clutch0z24 wrote:Bobby/Masai have made so many boneheaded moves post championship its almost like they lost passion after winning the title and losing Kawhi....I get it you just won a title and lost the player that got you there which would be demoralizing...

But so many mistakes that both deserve to be fired ....You can't fire Masai and hold onto Bobby thinking things will change ....Bobby might be more of the problem because maybe Masai let him make more decisions post title as well...

I can appreciate the team thinking they were still close to contending given this timeline:

2019: Championship
2020: 53 wins (lost in 2nd round, 7 games)
2021: Tampa Tank
2022: 48 wins (lost 1st round, 6 games; Barnes wins ROY)

So what happened in 2023?

It all makes sense if you accept what FVV said about the team's financial situation and pending sale. Rogers announced that they were going to buy BCE's stake in the team just before the 2024 season. I imagine that they would have tried to tighten up spending a least a year prior and the sale wasn't finalized until the end of the 2025 season.

I think the OG trade was pretty good but the Pascal trade returns were disappointing. It makes sense if the front office was financially restrained though. They probably weren't going to be allowed to extend both but more importantly they probably weren't allowed to take on a significant contract commitment in a trade for Pascal.

The draft is a crap shoot so "we could have drafted this guy" arguments don't mean much.

As far as Ingram, team success is largely based on the talent level at the top of your roster. If the team wanted to get competitive they needed more talent to go with Scottie and Ingram was an immediate solution vs. hoping to get lucky in the draft, possibly waiting 2 years for development that never happens. I'm quite happy with the Ingram acquisition and the team was looking very promising before RJ went down. I think an Ingram-Barnes team can follow the trajectory of the Lowry-DeRozan teams, ultimately with an ECF competitive ceiling without an MVP on the roster.

The information FVV provided really sheds some light on how/why some decisions would have been made. I'm not as pessimistic as some because we could just as easily not have guys like Ingram and Barnes, which for sure would leave us toiling in the lottery for years hoping to hit on an All-Star+ talent. Not nearly as easy or likely as people seem to think.

Do i think the front office is great or good, no. But Bobby can always link up Maga Ed with his good buddy Andrew Shultz to save his job for a few years if needed.

We have a few awkward issues - the RJ Canadian is a star or just an empty calorie guy - and IQ play the same position and we’re afraid to bench one of them so we’ve been running from that. We gave way to much money for no good reason to IQ and Poeltl. Dick is an arm shooter not a leg shooter and the nba 3 point line is further back. The teams Gradey worked out for, passed on him. There’s a reason he fell and it’s not because the other gms missed out. Playing him and JaKobe and Battle all in the same role means none of them will succeed, not that we guarantee one of them hit. No one played well in 10 min with a quick hook over your shoulder. We have some talent, but lack the guts, courage, confidence or insight for what ever reason, or maybe they’re too close or just have different priorities- but maybe somehow Darko doesn’t see what he’s been doing doesn’t work. The east is bad, our season goals were modest - it’s like sections of the fanbase want to excuse obvious **** play to keep up some fairy tale. Watching the games and watching the other teams you can see the good ones and the bad. We’re bad. Record smecord. We can’t win a round and we play like wussies. Who is the head wussie this is filtered down from. If it’s Darko -or whoever get them out asap. This is competitive- expect to play and beat good teams or realize your just there for those teams to beat. We’ve been good before, we will again -but decisions have consequences and we’re dealing with some really bad ones.

Food is either good for you or bad for you, there is no neutral. Same with coaches, players, gms. They help us win or they make us lose - get rid of the losers and keep the winners and never pay a loser winner money.

Indeed wrote:Said it many times, our problem is Barnes, he does not worth his contract. Lack of skill and shooting, yet, hardly improved.

"Hardly improved?"

He's having the best season of his career at the line and from 3... and inside the arc. All at once.

You bang this gong a lot, but it really doesn't sound out that well.

I agree with the overall premise, and I’ve been vehemently opposed to the mind-boggling decisions this FO has made over the past few years (Norm for GTJ in particular). That said, I think the OP’s timeline is a bit off, unless I’m mistaken. We were 26–30 when we made the midseason trade for Poeltl, and we realistically weren’t in a position to play the lottery odds.

However, we could have chosen to rebuild around Scottie at the start of that season, when it had become clear that (i) Scottie had more upside than expected, (ii) he wasn’t a great fit alongside OG and Siakam, and (iii) the whole ‘Project 6'9"’ -or whatever you want to call it- was a catastrophic failure.

All in all, I’ve never been less invested in this franchise, though part of that is due to my new responsibilities after starting a family and having a child in recent years.

Congrats on the fam, not the sad sack franchise we been cheering for

sca wrote:All in all, I’ve never been less invested in this franchise, though part of that is due to my new responsibilities after starting a family and having a child in recent years.

The wildest of journeys.

dTox wrote:Masai's time was up that's for sure, he was turning into Joe Dumars over time. Bobby is on the clock

Masai is Joe Dumars
Bobby is Troy Weaver

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Indeed wrote:Said it many times, our problem is Barnes, he does not worth his contract. Lack of skill and shooting, yet, hardly improved.

How we build around him? Trade for 1st and 2nd options, trade for rim protector and lock down defender, and what else he needs to do? High level energy glue guy should not pay near-max.

Barnes isnt the problem but he might be overpaid yet hes still a great 3rd option on a championship team, similar to like Jalen Williams on OKC. Once RJ comes back and he slots back in as the 3rd option he should excel in that role.

Problem is the 5 spot has been killing us this year , the team hasnt made up for the RJ's scoring (Dick and Walter) and IQ is a 6th man at best.

For me, things started falling apart in Scotties rookie year. When he was acting like an immature brat & wouldn't man up & accept leadership from the vets. Then the franchise sided with Scottie & started coddling him & turned their back on the vets that helped win us a ship.

That was a culture killer. The team has been striggling to gain traction since that time.

They needed to find a better way to transition. I felt like this was Fred and Pascal's team & it needed to stay that way for a while. Maybe you trade OG still.

I mean, this would have looked pretty good:

Vanvleet/ Quick
RJ
Scottie
Pascal
Poeltl (or bettee yet, a Myles Turner type)

Better defense & we have a legit scoring threat off the bench.

I think that team looks more solid than the one we have now.