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Getting the overall feel of the fan base and radio hosts it seems that last nights eff up by Quickley (just 1 turnover) Darko decides to go with Shead which has possible ignited another PG controversy, something that the Raptors can't live without.

You can use this thread to discuss who is better and why. And no just because you're still pissed at the OG trade or the contract is not a valid reason to hate on Quickley. Have at it.

People keep emphasizing on pure PG play which is not needed in todays NBA and definitely not needed on this roster with a bunch of playmakers. RJ, BI and Scottie can all create and don't need a playmaking PG to help the team score. There are other factors that makes this offense work and PG play is neither the problem or solution. Quickley just works perfectly with this group in the starting lineup - the chemistry is not discussed enough.

Obviously IQ is better, but he's also overpaid and doesn't really do much for us as the lead guard.

Shead is too ass at basketball to be above IQ.

The only reason why this is a debate is because IQ is a horrible advantage creator.

Quickley doesn't understand how to run a team, control the pace of the game, or use momentum correctly to get the hot hand another touch or to get someone else going when nessecary.

He's a good spot up shooter, who attacks closeouts well. He can run a two man game with a big.

He's simply a combo guard miscast as a starting point. He's looked his best in a role that limits his ball handling duties. The more playmaking talent he has around him the better.

It's an apples to oranges comparison with Shead. We need both on this team. There will be times when it's smart to close with Shead, and Darko is finding success realizing this.

We all wanted IQ to be the next Maxey, he isn't. He's still a nice player in the right role.

IQ is currently much better and we as constructed need both players very much. There are situations where Shead is more helpful.

Frankly with the success we've had playing them together I am in no rush to engage in pitting them against each other.

Westside Gunn wrote:People keep emphasizing on pure PG play which is not needed in todays NBA and definitely not needed on this roster with a bunch of playmakers.

I think this is a mistake of characterization.

We definitely don't have a lead guard who is good at initiating team offense. We have some guys who know how to pass around whatever their individual action is, and only one guy who can really create rim pressure. Surely, we don't need a 6' guy to come in and spam PnR all day and try to be the next John Stockton, sure.

But there are other elements missing from this team's O that a proper lead guard WOULD be able to help with. Not necessarily a helio guy, not necessarily a classic table-setter, but someone who makes reliable decisions, is good at controlling team tempo and can put the defense on its heels on a semi-consistent basis with a live dribble.

BI isn't that. He's an iso player who can make basic passes. RJ isn't that. He can play a decent PnR, but he is thriving for us a lot more with off-ball action. Scottie is great in transition and as the screener, but he isn't very good at all at creating advantage with a live dribble above the arc.

Quick has his uses. He has his warts and flaws, to be sure, but he definitely brings value more often than not. And Shead is what he is: a decent bench player who is a horrendous scoring threat at this time. So he isn't really ready for prime time at this point, though he's young and new enough, and on a controlled deal, that we should keep seeing what he can turn into for the remainder of his rookie deal.

People still want a “true point guard” like it’s the year 2005. Get with the times.

On most nights IQ is much better than Shead.

Upgrade from IQ with a trade.....I think in a few years Shead could become a starter similar to FVV's path, but for now he's just a backup PG and there's nothing wrong with that.

The guy that doesnt have a TS% below 50% lol

C_Money wrote:People still want a “true point guard” like it’s the year 2005. Get with the times.

On most nights IQ is much better than Shead.

For those that are still after that, it's hard for people to get over things... even long-standing myths. We still have people who are kneeling prostrate at the feet of inefficient volume scorers as if they are superstars. The value of a conventional, old-school PG has largely been overstated for decades, but people still hold on to what made sense in their youth, etc.

Obviously IQ is better but it comes down to comparing their contracts as to who is the better fit and that answer is clearly Shead. IQ is practically negative value where you have to attach an asset to get rid of.

He still has value to the Raptors but for about 10M less annually where they could use to add to other areas of the team.

Either way we need an upgrade at PG in the worst way possible.

KRANG wrote:Either way we need an upgrade at PG in the worst way possible.

Do we, though?

Or is what we really need more quality play from the 2/3 off the bench, including one more guy who can really get downhill and attack the basket?

tsherkin wrote:

KRANG wrote:Either way we need an upgrade at PG in the worst way possible.

Do we, though?

Or is what we really need more quality play from the 2/3 off the bench, including one more guy who can really get downhill and attack the basket?

Yes we do. RJ can’t be the only player on the team to have rim pressure. If he’s the difference between having a top 15 offence and the worst offence in the league, you need an upgrade at the guard spot.

HumbleRen wrote:

tsherkin wrote:

KRANG wrote:Either way we need an upgrade at PG in the worst way possible.

Do we, though?

Or is what we really need more quality play from the 2/3 off the bench, including one more guy who can really get downhill and attack the basket?

Yes we do. RJ can’t be the only player on the team to have rim pressure. If he’s the difference between having a top 15 offence and the worst offence in the league, you need an upgrade at the guard spot.

Did you... read what I wrote? Like, at all?

I was talking rather explicitly about adding some rim pressure... just not at the 1

Tor_Raps wrote:Obviously IQ is better but it comes down to comparing their contracts as to who is the better fit and that answer ks clearly Shead. IQ is practically negative value where you have to attach an asset to get rid of.

He still has value to the Raptors but for about 10M less annually where they could use to add to other areas of the team.

That's where I sit. Quickley is more talented than Shead.

But if someone showed me extensive video of both players (not knowing anything about player 1 or player 2), & said you have a choice to sign player 1 for 32 million a year, or player 2 for 2 million a year.......there is no way I am picking the 32 million dollar player.

tsherkin wrote:

HumbleRen wrote:

tsherkin wrote:
Do we, though?

Or is what we really need more quality play from the 2/3 off the bench, including one more guy who can really get downhill and attack the basket?

Yes we do. RJ can’t be the only player on the team to have rim pressure. If he’s the difference between having a top 15 offence and the worst offence in the league, you need an upgrade at the guard spot.

Did you... read what I wrote? Like, at all?

I was talking rather explicitly about adding some rim pressure... just not at the 1

I did. I don’t think that’s a viable solution to our issue at all lol.

You can’t rely on rim pressure from the bench guys, that’s utterly silly. We need it from our starters.

HumbleRen wrote:I did. I don’t think that’s a viable solution to our issue at all lol.

...

You can’t rely on rim pressure from the bench guys, that’s utterly silly. We need it from our starters.

So, we have rim pressure in our starting lineup. We have none in our bench lineup, which is a larger issue. If we had a 15-20 mpg guy coming in at the 2/3 who could maintain that rim pressure, that would no longer be an issue.

It's going to be hard to find someone we can play at the 1 who is worthwhile in that regard. Small guys aren't generally it for that style of play. So we are, in essence, looking for a combo guard-sized player who can defend reasonably well, shoot reasonably well from outside and then also attack with a live dribble. That's basically what you're talking about, and those are neither common. Nor cheap.

EDIT: Because otherwise, you're really just saying what I did, that we need a SG. And since we already have RJ, this new guy isn't likely to start.

Until Shead can become a 38% shooter from 3, he's not a starter. Even with his hops, a consistent deep shot would open up so much for his game. Coming out of Houston, my issue with him was that he didn't put enough arc on the shot. Well, he's somewhat improved there, but there's more work to be done. Small guards have to be able to shoot, even if they are dawgs defensively. Davion Mitchell after 4 NBA seasons learned to shoot, so all is not lost there.

As it is, Shead is a fine backup point guard in today's NBA. The issue with Quickley is the contract. If he made half the money, so the team could add another piece, he'd be more than adequate.

tsherkin wrote:

HumbleRen wrote:I did. I don’t think that’s a viable solution to our issue at all lol.

...

You can’t rely on rim pressure from the bench guys, that’s utterly silly. We need it from our starters.

So, we have rim pressure in our starting lineup. We have none in our bench lineup, which is a larger issue. If we had a 15-20 mpg guy coming in at the 2/3 who could maintain that rim pressure, that would no longer be an issue.

It's going to be hard to find someone we can play at the 1 who is worthwhile in that regard. Small guys aren't generally it for that style of play. So we are, in essence, looking for a combo guard-sized player who can defend reasonably well, shoot reasonably well from outside and then also attack with a live dribble. That's basically what you're talking about, and those are neither common. Nor cheap.

EDIT: Because otherwise, you're really just saying what I did, that we need a SG. And since we already have RJ, this new guy isn't likely to start.

I don’t agree that we have rim pressure in the starting line up.

Scoring in the paint doesn’t mean rim pressure. RJ is the only player who can consistently get to the rim with a live dribble in the starting 5. Ideally you want your lead guard to be able to do that, IQ can’t. It’s more realistic to find a player like that via an upgrade at the PG spot than it is to magically find a guy like that coming off our bench.

Ideally yes, a combo guard who can do all of that would be great but I don’t think that’s a realistic get.