Im just gonna say it...Raptors look better with Calderon

[gcsw]

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Do you really believe that teams are going to line up to give us that elusive SF we've been looking for in a package for TJ, especially when he seems to be the one the team is backing as the starting PG.

In all likelihood it would be Jose but even then if we sign him to a reasonable deal, why not keep both and get that SF in a draft pick or some other type of move. Everyone looks at the PG position and assumes we have to move them because there is a need at SF. No doubt there is a weakness there, but why are we in such a rush to fill that void. This team simply is not ready to contend and still needs time to grow and you've probably got a two year time period to find that SF. In the meantime you can take your time to assess if either PG steps up and establishes himself as clearly superior to the other, which hasn't happened yet.

You mention our winning record without TJ proving that we don't need him but I say the 47 win team last season proves we do in fact need him. The fact that this guy, in every season in the league has never missed the playoffs proves we need him. The fact that he's a proven winner and warrior says that we need him. The fact that he's improved his shot proves that we need him.

It shouldn't be hard for Raps to get a decent SF+fillers in return for Ford+Bargs+fillers, especially since so many here thinks TJ is a very good player. His value to us would be big if we didnt have Jose. But other teams are lacking a decent PG. His value to them would be more than for Raps.

If you are planning to get that SF through draft, then you will be waiting for another 10 years. We are not getting a #1 pick anytime soon. And still, it won't bring us a championship. I want that SF now because I want Raps to win a playoff series. They are not winning a championship with Bosh as their best player.

Our 47 win record last season does not prove we need TJ. On the contrary, if we traded him we would have been a 50+ win team. I dont even want to think about those 10+ wild shots he threw in the air when we had a chance to tie or win, it will make me hate him even more.

[rdtx2005]

Our 47 win record last season does not prove we need TJ. On the contrary, if we traded him we would have been a 50+ win team. I dont even want to think about those 10+ wild shots he threw in the air when we had a chance to tie or win, it will make me hate him even more.

man.. we should trade Calderon too... he made the pass of the year to Richard Jefferson

[Geddy]

You are like the rest of the people who can't take it when I speak the truth

there he goes with again with "the truth"

[Death Knight]

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there he goes with again with "the truth"

You can't handle the truth eh?

There there........it's okay. hahahaha!

[Cassius]

Jose has played 22 games without TJ (13-9).

While..........

TJ has played only a mere 5 games without Jose (2-3).

For a poster that is full of **** like you to call me out?

Try to do better next time.

If someone could compare the numbers that TJ has put up in his career with over 35 minutes vs. Jose's, you'd see that TJ is superior. If you want to talk about how many games they've played without each other, then let's look at their entire careers.

I get frustrated with Ford at times, but since I have a long-term view of the future of the team, I know that he'll iron those problems out the same way Payton and Strickland have done before him as long as he gets the minutes.

Payton's situation is very similar to TJ's. The Sonics had Nate McMillan, another young guard with a lot of potential himself, but not the obvious star qualities of Gary Payton. They split the minutes for the first few years and eventually made Nate a point-forward to accommodate both players' skills. Since day one I've championed the idea of playing Jose at the 2 for 4-8 minutes per game to take advantage of Jose's jumper and to keep both players on the court longer.

All I'm saying is that the future of the team clearly rests with Ford. Teams don't go from the lottery to the title with unspectacular players handling the majority of the ball-handling and facilitation duties.

[Death Knight]

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If someone could compare the numbers that TJ has put up in his career with over 35 minutes vs. Jose's, you'd see that TJ is superior. If you want to talk about how many games they've played without each other, then let's look at their entire careers.

I get frustrated with Ford at times, but since I have a long-term view of the future of the team, I know that he'll iron those problems out the same way Payton and Strickland have done before him as long as he gets the minutes.

Payton's situation is very similar to TJ's. The Sonics had Nate McMillan, another young guard with a lot of potential himself, but not the obvious star qualities of Gary Payton. They split the minutes for the first few years and eventually made Nate a point-forward to accommodate both players' skills. Since day one I've championed the idea of playing Jose at the 2 for 4-8 minutes per game to take advantage of Jose's jumper and to keep both players on the court longer.

All I'm saying is that the future of the team clearly rests with Ford. Teams don't go from the lottery to the title with unspectacular players handling the majority of the ball-handling and facilitation duties.

We aren't talking about minutes or who starts. We are talking about the back up situation. TJ has a capable back in Jose when TJ starts. Meanwhile, whenever Jose starts, because TJ is injured, he doesn't have a capable back up. This makes it so much tougher for Calderon, which some of you either don't realize and forget about or choose not to acknowledge.

[rdtx2005]

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We aren't talking about minutes or who starts. We are talking about the back up situation. TJ has a capable back in Jose when TJ starts. Meanwhile, whenever Jose starts, because TJ is injured, he doesn't have a capable back up. This makes it so much tougher for Calderon, which some of you either don't realize and forget about or choose not to acknowledge.

but but but.. wasn't Calderon labeled as the almighty gift from Spain that no one can defeat?

obviously gcsw and his gang of fugs believe that Calderon needs no backup and can give you 48 minutes of no turnover ball while racking up 20 assists and 20 pts

[Death Knight]

Just so fools don't bring out the edit crap, I will not edit my previous post and just start another one, because I have more to add to my above post.

This is the point. Calderon has to carry so much more load and pressue when he is the starting pg, because he doesn't have a capable back up. Vice versa, when TJ starts he has less pressue or load on his shoulders, because he knows he always has Jose backing him up and can easily pick up the slack if TJ himself is having a bad night.

This is the reason why I bring up the number of games Jose has played without TJ and how many games TJ has played without Jose.

[Death Knight]

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but but but.. wasn't Calderon labeled as the almighty gift from Spain that no one can defeat?

You have nothing to disect from my post because you know I'm right.

Nice of you to showcase your talented mocking ability though.

[rdtx2005]

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You have nothing to disect from my post because you know I'm right.

Nice of you to showcase your talented mocking ability though.

i don't have to know you are right. i agree with the assessment

[Death Knight]

And for all you English teachers out there, I know I spelled "disect wrong." It is dissect, but then you that someone will say I edited my posts and changed some stuff.

[PharoaheMonch]

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I know you didn't. You'd be missing out on a wealth of basketball knowledge...

Just do better next time and you'll be fine.

You speaking on basketball knowledge?

If you had 1/10th of the basketball knowledge the average Real Gm'er has on here, you wouldn't be making such (Please Use More Appropriate Word) posts.

[Death Knight]

I have more to say, because I have decided to take over this thread.

The ones that criticize Jose are the same ones that don't think Calderon is capable of starting pg and should only be a back up pg in the NBA. If so, then why do you expect so much out of him? If Jose is the best true back up pg in the NBA then he is doing his job just fine. He is holding the fort with the starting pg (TJ Ford) out. If other starting pgs in the NBA went down, do you think any other back up would be capable of doing the same thing as Calderon? Don't be complaining about Calderon so much if you think he is just a back up.

If you think Calderon is a capable starter then you have every right to have high expectations from him and have every right to bitch about his weaknesses and complain all you want.

But those that think Calderon is a career back up pg and incapable of being a starter in this league should not expect so much from him and stop talking so much garbage.

TJ is more talented than Jose, so of course we are going to expect more out of TJ and at the same time TJ will also receive more criticism and pressue from fans. That makes a lot of sense don't you think?

[Death Knight]

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You speaking on basketball knowledge?

If you had 1/10th of the basketball knowledge the average Real Gm'er has on here, you wouldn't be making such (Please Use More Appropriate Word) posts.

Keep up the good work with you sad replies...

[Death Knight]

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Keep up the good work with your sad replies...

Corrected.....

[andyo]

Death_Knight, I find you totally justified in defending Calderon. Obviously there are some extremists who would go into GREAT lengths to criticize Calderon.

[Cassius]

I have more to say, because I have decided to take over this thread.

The ones that criticize Jose are the same ones that don't think Calderon is capable of starting pg and should only be a back up pg in the NBA. If so, then why do you expect so much out of him? If Jose is the best true back up pg in the NBA then he is doing his job just fine. He is holding the fort with the starting pg (TJ Ford) out. If other starting pgs in the NBA went down, do you think any other back up would be capable of doing the same thing as Calderon? Don't be complaining about Calderon so much if you think he is just a back up.

If you think Calderon is a capable starter then you have every right to have high expectations from him and have every right to bitch about his weaknesses and complain all you want.

But those that think Calderon is a career back up pg and incapable of being a starter in this league should not expect so much from him and stop talking so much garbage.

TJ is more talented than Jose, so of course we are going to expect more out of TJ and at the same time TJ will also receive more criticism and pressue from fans. That makes a lot of sense don't you think?

First thing: I brought up minutes because, regardless of who is backing a player up, by taking a sample of a players' stats when given a 35+ minutes, you see exactly what that INDIVIDUAL player's level of production would be if he were a starting point guard. For this reason, bringing up DMart and Dixon is immaterial when discussing TJ and Jose's potential as starting PGs.

In terms of Calderon's career, it is obvious that he should be a starting point guard in the NBA. However, he does not have the skillset to be THE featured backcourt player on whichever team he plays for. He does not have the creativity as a passer or penetrator to put constant pressure on a defense over the course of a 35 minute game.

He does, however, have a lights-out jumper and the solid decision-making skills to get a creative SG or SF the ball in positions where that player can create for themselves.

Essentially, TJ is perfect for teams like Toronto, New Orleans, Golden State, Phoenix, Sacramento, Dallas and Utah that do not have wing players that can create offense for themselves.

Jose, on the other hand, would thrive in Atlanta, Miami, with the Lakers, Nuggets, Cavs, Rockets and Celtics. All of these squads have swingmen that need a point guard that can get them the ball in their sweet spots, get out of the way and hit the open jumper when the ball comes back.

To put this in 'championship' perspective, if you were to trade TJ for Tony Parker, you would continue to bring Manu off the bench and keep a pair of snipers on the wings in the starting lineup.

If you were to trade TP for Jose, you would have to start Manu so that there is a creator on the perimeter, but Manu would probably become a 22-23ppg player with Jose feeding him.

[Tha Cynic]

1. You can think what you want. You are like the rest of the people who can't take it when I speak the truth. If you can find anything wrong with anything I said, then by all means disect them and see what bs you can come up with.

2. Maybe others have suggested that Calderon should be the starter, but I am not one of them. I always agreed that TJ is the more talented player and should continue to start when he is healthy no matter how well Jose has been playing filling in as the starter. It's both players are good, it is best to keep things status quo, TJ as the starter and Jose is the back up. Chaning things and demoting TJ would only cause internal problems.

You say TJ puts the Raptors over the top into elite status, but how is that even remotely true when this team is still just a decently good team with both pgs? You should very well know that this team needs both pgs at this point in time. Neither pg alone is ready to put the Raptors over the top as an elite team.

You also don't realize that when ever TJ goes down, Jose is left all by himself and has guys like D-mart and Juan Dixon backing him up. In short, when TJ starts he has Jose backing him up, when Jose starts he has below average pgs like D-mart and Juan Dixon backing him up. How is that fair to Calderon? You should give Calderon a lot of credit for holding things together for the Raptors despite not having the same luxuries as TJ when he starts.

Jose has played 22 games without TJ (13-9).

While..........

TJ has played only a mere 5 games without Jose (2-3).

For a poster that is full of **** like you to call me out?

Try to do better next time.

Now, now no need to get personal. We can all be civil people. Don't take things so personally. TJ and Jose are just two random individuals in this world.

As for the whole neutral thing, clearly you're not neutral, but I see you have planted it in your head that you are and won't believe otherwise so I'll just let it go.

As for capable backup. So Calderon doesn't have TJ right now. What does that have to do with how he plays? Are his skills suddenly going to disappear because TJ isn't here? Your argument makes no sense. No player plays with the mindset that they can play relaxed because they have a capable backup. I'm saying Jose's style of game is not going to put this team over the top, unless we actually get elite talent. On the other hand TJ puts us over the top with his talents alone.

Last season we were one of the elite teams in the east. Right now we're a very mediocre team without TJ. Watching the way this team plays right now, it's not the same team we saw last year. There's no intensity or excitement out there. Jose is great at racking up the assists and keeping us afloat, but TJ is our starter because he does more. Right now Calderon is doing what he's supposed to be doing, and that's buying time till TJ gets back. Jose is a great player and many teams would love to have him. But TJ is our starter because he adds that second gear to this team and drives it past mediocrity.

[Death Knight]

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Now, now no need to get personal. We can all be civil people. Don't take things so personally. TJ and Jose are just two random individuals in this world.

As for the whole neutral thing, clearly you're not neutral, but I see you have planted it in your head that you are and won't believe otherwise so I'll just let it go.

As for capable backup. So Calderon doesn't have TJ right now. What does that have to do with how he plays? Are his skills suddenly going to disappear because TJ isn't here? Your argument makes no sense. No player plays with the mindset that they can play relaxed because they have a capable backup. I'm saying Jose's style of game is not going to put this team over the top, unless we actually get elite talent. On the other hand TJ puts us over the top with his talents alone.

Last season we were one of the elite teams in the east. Right now we're a very mediocre team without TJ. Watching the way this team plays right now, it's not the same team we saw last year. There's no intensity or excitement out there. Jose is great at racking up the assists and keeping us afloat, but TJ is our starter because he does more. Right now Calderon is doing what he's supposed to be doing, and that's buying time till TJ gets back. Jose is a great player and many teams would love to have him. But TJ is our starter because he adds that second gear to this team and drives it past mediocrity.

Cynic....... You tried your best to rebutal, but your arguments are still weak.

Now, now no need to get personal. We can all be civil people. Don't take things so personally. TJ and Jose are just two random individuals in this world.

No one is here to get personal. We are here to talk about basketball. Don't forget who called out who first. If you can't take it when I throw basketball arguments at you, then why even bother replying with your weak arguments. If you're insulted by the "full of ****" comment then I am sorry, but that is what your posts are........full of ****.

As for the whole neutral thing, clearly you're not neutral, but I see you have planted it in your head that you are and won't believe otherwise so I'll just let it go.

If I am not neutral, then who is? You??? (I want you to truly answer this one) Hahaha.......I presented good arguments and points that people should take into consideration and instead of considering them, you come up with bs to go against it...

As for capable backup. So Calderon doesn't have TJ right now. What does that have to do with how he plays? Are his skills suddenly going to disappear because TJ isn't here? Your argument makes no sense. No player plays with the mindset that they can play relaxed because they have a capable backup. I'm saying Jose's style of game is not going to put this team over the top, unless we actually get elite talent. On the other hand TJ puts us over the top with his talents alone.

Jose's skills won't suddenly disappear and no player plays with the mindset that they can relax...all true. But consider this.....if Jose has a bad game as a starter with TJ out, who is going to save Jose and pick up the slack at the pg position for him in order to help the Raptors win a game? On the other hand, when TJ has a bad game, he can still hope that Calderon can save his ass and pick up the slack for him and give the Raptors a chance to win. It's about team success and wins/losses at the end of the day.

In your last sentence of this part of your post, you are suggesting that......

TJ & D-mart/Juan Dixon >>>> TJ & Jose.

I guess Calderon is not needed and that his style is hindering and holding the team back...

I will let others rip you on this one, but I will say something else........You have indirectly made it clear that you are here to argue in favor of choosing one of the pgs (TJ) rather than keeping both, which any realist would know that it is not the best thing for this team at this point in time. With an injuring TJ and lack of a capable back up to Jose, this team isn't going to go very far with just one of them running the show.

When healthy, this team's biggest strength is it's pg situation, and the fact that this team has yet to take off as an elite team has nothing to do with the performance of the pgs on this team. The pg production on this team has been solid for the most part. The failure to take the next step into elite status comes from other positions within the team (sg, sf,) and at the center position with Bargnani still developing, and struggling in the process.

As a result, TJ isn't the one to take this team to the next level as you ignorantly think so. Nor is Jose the one to take this team to the next level, which I am smart enough to realize. In order for this team to take the next level, it will come down to Bargnani's development and performance at the other positions.

Last season we were one of the elite teams in the east. Right now we're a very mediocre team without TJ. Watching the way this team plays right now, it's not the same team we saw last year. There's no intensity or excitement out there. Jose is great at racking up the assists and keeping us afloat, but TJ is our starter because he does more. Right now Calderon is doing what he's supposed to be doing, and that's buying time till TJ gets back. Jose is a great player and many teams would love to have him. But TJ is our starter because he adds that second gear to this team and drives it past mediocrity.

Don't forget that this team had both pgs at the begining of the season and they were still mediocre. Why? because both Chris Bosh and Anthony Parker struggled, while new players were still getting adjusted. At the same time, the pg production was the most consistent and productive. To blame the Raptors mediocrity on the pgs is just foolish.

No one is here to argue who should be starting. TJ is the starting pg for this team. I have no idea why you feel the need to remind people or me who the starting pg is.

Once again in this part of your post, you show little appreciation for what Jose is doing with TJ out and suggest that this team does not want or need Jose. You are also suggesting that TJ doesn't need Jose and would be doing way better by himself then what Jose is doing by himself at the pg position right now. You couldn't be more wrong.

If the one injured right now is Jose, and TJ is starting with D-mart, Juan Dixon backing him up...this team would not be any better. Especially not an elite team as you seem to suggest TJ can do by himself.

[whysoserious]

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It shouldn't be hard for Raps to get a decent SF+fillers in return for Ford+Bargs+fillers, especially since so many here thinks TJ is a very good player. His value to us would be big if we didnt have Jose. But other teams are lacking a decent PG. His value to them would be more than for Raps.

If you are planning to get that SF through draft, then you will be waiting for another 10 years. We are not getting a #1 pick anytime soon. And still, it won't bring us a championship. I want that SF now because I want Raps to win a playoff series. They are not winning a championship with Bosh as their best player.

Our 47 win record last season does not prove we need TJ. On the contrary, if we traded him we would have been a 50+ win team. I dont even want to think about those 10+ wild shots he threw in the air when we had a chance to tie or win, it will make me hate him even more.

It shouldn't be hard to get a SF+fillers for TJ/Bargs and fillers. You've just expanded the trade and at best you are moving sideways. Second, you don't need a number one pick to get a SF, all you need is a pick, no matter where it is.

You say we would win 50+ with SF and minus TJ/Bargs but that just isn't anything anyone can say for certain. It's not like you are going to get an elite SF for TJ/Bargs package, especially at this point with TJ hurt and Bargs in a slump. Could you make such a trade? Absolutely and I don't disagree that we need a SF upgrade but why rush such a move for what you want which is to win a simple playoff round? Then what, we just continue doing the same, making the playoffs and win a round. Whereas we already have both PG's, Bosh and Bargs and we have picks, Rasho's expiring and a few other expirings next season to pull off a deal for an elite SF and still keep those four together. I'd rather go that route than rush to trade one of the PG's.

Reading a post like above, I've come to the realization that FV4L was right and you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. You can respond to this, but I don't really care as I won't see it.