Im just gonna say it...Raptors look better with Calderon

[PharoaheMonch]

-= original quote snipped =-



There is no evidence to back that up. Until we see TJ perform enough without Jose, we really wouldn't know TJ's endurance or quality of play with heavy minutes. But most importantly, not the individual numbers, but the teams wins and losses.

We have seen Jose play alot without TJ, but not so much TJ playing without Jose. We can observe that Jose is decent enough playing without Jose. If Jose ever goes down and TJ is healthy, then we can observe TJ's side of the story.

Edit: It also doesn't help by having liability back ups like D-mart and Juan Dixon behind you.

Oh look, it's more fluff from Death Knight.

[PharoaheMonch]

Boy you have an extremely short memory there don't you?

Last year TJ played 30 minutes a game and was second in the league in assists per 48. This season, TJ was playing EVEN better and also finishing at an amazing rate FG% wise. We're not talking about an extra 10-15 minutes here, we're talking 5 minutes. That's all it takes.

You're telling me his stats wouldn't be absolutely ridiculous in 5 extra minutes a game? Somebody post TJ's RIDICULOUS stats in the games he has played over 35 minutes.

The fact that I even had to bring all of this up makes me shake my head.

[Death Knight]

I will say another thing. If Chris Paul or some elite pg was running this team, I would have as much of a problem having backs like D-Mart or Juan Dixon. But truth is, neither Jose or TJ have established themselves as stars yet, so they need to have another quality pg beside them. And in this case, they have each other and they need each other.

[Death Knight]

Boy you have an extremely short memory there don't you?

Last year TJ played 30 minutes a game and was second in the league in assists per 48. This season, TJ was playing EVEN better and also finishing at an amazing rate FG% wise. We're not talking about an extra 10-15 minutes here, we're talking 5 minutes. That's all it takes.

You're telling me his stats wouldn't be absolutely ridiculous in 5 extra minutes a game? Somebody post TJ's RIDICULOUS stats in the games he has played over 35 minutes.

The fact that I even had to bring all of this up makes me shake my head.

You don't need to shake your head. We all know that you have made up your mind and it is pretty clear which side you are leaning towards. People like you shouldn't talk in a thread that requires people to be unbiased and take both sides into consideration.

And Jose's numbers haven't been impressive? Jose's 35+ min games have necessarily been much worse than TJ's 35+ min games. The man is averaging close to double doubles.

Keep in mind again. Jose has played 22 games without TJ (13-9), while TJ has played 5 games without Jose (2-3). Do you think it is easy on Calderon to have pathetic back ups like D-mart or Juan Dixon out there messing things up for 10 mins or so each game. How do you think TJ would fair having D-mart or Juan Dixon backing him up?

Please.......until we see more of TJ playing without Jose, we really can't assess TJ's side of the story.

[mozywozy]

mozywozy wrote:
...without tipping my hat as to whom I think is the better PG for the Raptors, I believe it is not neccessarily better to have two PG's whom are capable of starting than having just one, with a capable backup. Point guards usually like to log big minutes in order to establish to establish and maintain a rhythm and cohesiveness with their teamates on the floor. TJ and Joses games are so different, that everytime you sub one for the other everyone is forced to readjust their games also. This makes it harder for the Raps to find and maintain, not only a rhythm, but a consistent team identity. Rather than have one of the leagues elite PG's and a physical asset sit on the bench for half of every game - why wouldn't you package one of them in a trade for a SG/SF that can log heavy minutes and be effective. As a backup PG, all you need is someone who can come in for a few minutes to give your starter a blow, maintain the status quo and not make any mistakes (like heaving up long jumpers a.k.a. D. Martin). Cooangelo can keep whichever guy he wants but to keep both is not efficient asset wise, not fair to either PG, and not conducive to establishing a team identity... by the way Jose is a much better choice to keep - just thought I'd say.


Yeah, just thought you'd say eh? Mr 3 posts. You think your post holds any weight on this forum? We all know who this is bro.


Mr. Pharoahemonch... not sure who you think I am, but the crux of what I'm saying isn't that one is good and one is bad... but that having two all star calibre guards is not necessarily better than having one w/ a good back up, and using the other as an asset to fill another need through a trade. If your on this site, you should take those mens panties off your face, and open your ears and mind to the oppinions of others other than yourself... that's how people learn. Happy new year, loser.

[PharoaheMonch]

mozywozy wrote:
...without tipping my hat as to whom I think is the better PG for the Raptors, I believe it is not neccessarily better to have two PG's whom are capable of starting than having just one, with a capable backup. Point guards usually like to log big minutes in order to establish to establish and maintain a rhythm and cohesiveness with their teamates on the floor. TJ and Joses games are so different, that everytime you sub one for the other everyone is forced to readjust their games also. This makes it harder for the Raps to find and maintain, not only a rhythm, but a consistent team identity. Rather than have one of the leagues elite PG's and a physical asset sit on the bench for half of every game - why wouldn't you package one of them in a trade for a SG/SF that can log heavy minutes and be effective. As a backup PG, all you need is someone who can come in for a few minutes to give your starter a blow, maintain the status quo and not make any mistakes (like heaving up long jumpers a.k.a. D. Martin). Cooangelo can keep whichever guy he wants but to keep both is not efficient asset wise, not fair to either PG, and not conducive to establishing a team identity... by the way Jose is a much better choice to keep - just thought I'd say.


Yeah, just thought you'd say eh? Mr 3 posts. You think your post holds any weight on this forum? We all know who this is bro.


Mr. Pharoahemonch... not sure who you think I am, but the crux of what I'm saying isn't that one is good and one is bad... but that having two all star calibre guards is not necessarily better than having one w/ a good back up, and using the other as an asset to fill another need through a trade. If your on this site, you should take those mens panties off your face, and open your ears and mind to the oppinions of others other than yourself... that's how people learn. Happy new year, loser.

This was your 4th post, and you sound like you've been at the heat of this debate for a year now. I'm not the one going around making different accounts. It is obvious we have crossed paths before, considering how personal you're getting.

You speak for yourself with all of that garbage. Everyone here already knows what's up with people making several accounts and people posting trash on TJ's website etc. You hold no weight.

[torontoaces04]

this topic will be at 25 pages of non-sense before 11pm. why every week does someone need to make a thread like this?

[kmatrixg]

Mr. Pharoahemonch... not sure who you think I am, but the crux of what I'm saying isn't that one is good and one is bad... but that having two all star calibre guards is not necessarily better than having one w/ a good back up, and using the other as an asset to fill another need through a trade. If your on this site, you should take those mens panties off your face, and open your ears and mind to the oppinions of others other than yourself... that's how people learn. Happy new year, loser.

As far as I know, you can't hear what you read...open your eyes maybe? I still don't see the risk in having two amazing point guards. Two Quarterbacks, two pitchers, two goalies - These are all the leading positions of each respective sport.

[execoftheyear]

Let's just say our offense would look even better with Ford in the rotation, adding penetration which we desperately need.

[KG1585]

To all the people that say Jose cannot lead this team, you guys do realize that he is averaging close to a double-double in the games he has started. How many PG's are averaging double figures in assists and points. The Raps were also 8-8 through the toughest part of their schedule, with Jose being arguably their best player. He also played well against the Nets in the playoffs, so his game does work in the playoffs.

These threads need to stop. TJ is the starting PG, and the Raps have a backup PG, who is a starter on half the teams in the league, we should be thankful, and enjoy the ride, and not have to worry about having Alston or Cook as our starting PG's.

[torsport]

I've actually been thinking about this lately. I've always been a TJ supporter and preferred him in the starting 5 last season.

This season I have to admit I've been looking at the situation a little more and stats aside Raps are:

7-7 with TJ as a starter
10-8 with Jose as a starter
1-1 with TJ as a backup
9-7 without TJ in the lineup
7-7 with Jose as a backup

Of course there are always variables. Was Bosh healthy for that entire time, we were still figuring out our rotation, home vs. away (Jose starting 10-8 record includes 11 road games with a very respectable 5-6 record...on the flipside Raps on the road with TJ starting they are 4-3)

Point production or one on one defense aren't necessarily indicators of wins and losses. A good team defender communicates well and isn't necessarily dependant on one on one skills. I'm more concerned with results, and thus far Jose has earned some consideration for the starting position.

He's certainly produced well enough in a starting role to warrant the discussion. We're better off with both no doubt (especially in case of an injury), but maybe we're better off with Jose as the starter and TJ producing instant offense off the bench.

[azapikoa]

-= original quote snipped =-



TJ in 35 minutes would be considered an All Star PG in the East. No question about it.

Jose too if he was a little more selfish and he was taking the same number of shot attempts than TJ.

[C.Boshly]

Remember when the knock against Jose was that he couldn't win against good teams?

Guess this roadtrip ended those comments.

[Geddy]

We all know that you have made up your mind and it is pretty clear which side you are leaning towards. People like you shouldn't talk in a thread that requires people to be unbiased and take both sides into consideration.

this coming from you...

[Grizzled]

Unfortunately I think TJ

[ilikecb4]

u're blind

[Buyaka]

We need both.

[Death Knight]

-= original quote snipped =-



this coming from you...

Of course. I tell the truth...........which some of you can't or don't know how to handle it when I dish it out.

[PharoaheMonch]

-= original quote snipped =-



Of course. I tell the truth...........which some of you can't or don't know how to handle it when I dish it out.

That's why you've had to backtrack and edit pretty much every post you've had in this thread so far...

[Raptors90102]

-= original quote snipped =-



That's why you've had to backtrack and edit pretty much every post you've had in this thread so far...

thats funny.. I could have sworn I saw more than half of his posts that are unedited.. maybe you see something that the rest of us don't?