Gherardini scouting in Europe

[Geddy]

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Do you have no concern over the misconception on this board that finding an athletic slasher will lead them to the NBA promised land?

oh i have many concerns about a lot of misconceptions that float around this board. Since we were on this topic i just pointed out this one.

[emfive]

I get the feeling we are all arguing around in circles and agree with each other on most counts ... except for that idiotic puzzyness post.

[HiJiNX]

I stand by what I said about the Euro thing. Who would argue that the Euro game would work here. The rules are different at any rate. Everone would play the Euro game if those rules applied here. If you brought your argument to Sam or any of the Raps coaches they would laugh at you. Raps are NOT playing Euro ball. Does the Euro game involve one on one iso with PF an PG and ... no ball movement ... which is causing the Raps coaches to pull whatever hair they have left out of their heads.

BTW. If Parker was a jump shooter Pops would nail his azz to the bench.

I was referring to the Parker on our team.

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Do you have no concern over the misconception on this board that finding an athletic slasher will lead them to the NBA promised land?

LOL, well, it would help but wouldn't solve all of our problems. We need better overall talent, wherever it comes from, even if that's Europe.

[emfive]

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I was referring to the Parker on our team

Well I was referring to Tony of course. And yet when Anthony plays the game his coaches want him too (and he is healthy) is a lot more than a mere jump shooter.

See the trouble with all this Euro (bull and it is bull) is that Ray Allen would be considered a Euro by that definition. The Raps are playing like Euros argument is a red herring. When they do not move the ball around and mix that in with getting to the basket they are playing like chumps ... not Euros!

[HiJiNX]

European players can't win in the playoffs??? Well maybe this team is too much of a jumpshooting team, but if anything having Europeans or International players on your team makes it easier to win. Just look at the teams last year that had 3 or more International players in their regular rotation.

San Antonio
Cleveland
Utah
Phoenix
Toronto
Orlando

There might be another team I can't think of so feel free to correct me, but those are the teams I could think of off the top of my head. Even still that grouping of teams had a pretty good season last year, and were 4 of the top 5 teams in the playoffs. Only Orlando and TO weren't GREAT teams (both still good) last year and its because they were both young and inexperienced, not to mention that their group of International players had smaller roles than the elite teams.

Whether you like it or not International players have a knack for making the players around them better, and even if it doesn't show in the individual stats, the teams that have the best International talents have an easier time winning games. They learned a style of play that is more conducive to a TEAM winning and not about highlights or stat stuffing. Thats the reason why International teams with less talent can beat the SUPER talented US team, why Euro club-teams can beat NBA teams with infinite more talent in exhibition games, and why NBA teams who make a point of having International players on their roster win way more games than teams with all-american rosters. Raps fans should be happy about this fact and not get caught up in the immature us-vs.-them inferiority complex.

You make a good point as well. I'm guess I'm just scared of our team becoming too European in our style of play, or should I say too predicated on jumpshooting, since I don't think it works on this side of the Atlantic.

[from24ft]

Fairview, you keep harping on the +20 wins, but lets not get so wrapped up in Bryan's inaugural season. Moves need to be judged based on time. I think Boston and Portland are going to have a nice + this year too.

Cashing in the 1st season makes you look as reactionary as the posters that claim the opposite.

If you ask Dallas fans they will tell you that regular season win totals mean very little.

In the playoffs teams get to focus on each other. This gives them time to adjust. We have a lot of holes where teams can exploit us.

[HiJiNX]

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Well I was referring to Tony of course. And yet when Anthony plays the game his coaches want him too (and he is healthy) is a lot more than a mere jump shooter.

See the trouble with all this Euro (bull and it is bull) is that Ray Allen would be considered a Euro by that definition. The Raps are playing like Euros argument is a red herring. When they do not move the ball around and mix that in with getting to the basket they are playing like chumps ... not Euros!

Yeah....you were right in your other post...we're all arguing for the same thing...just different words.

[dagger]

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Where has all this "winning" been? We're two games above .500 and we were beat by a team we were better than in the playoffs last year primarily because we played scared the first four games. Anytime anybody posts an unpopular opinion on this board ppl jump on that poster, when sometimes they are making a good point.

I really don't feel this team needs any more mediocre Euros. If we can find some excellent European talent or some European talent with toughness, that'd be cool, but I think we're relying too much on this European style of basketball. The problem is thus far, European style basketball does not seem to be very effective in an NBA playoff situation...too much jumpshooting.

Mediocre Euros?

Like Calderon?

Delfino. A South American who came came via trade, for almost nothing, and is exceeding expectations.

Bargnani - has been mediocre for a few weeks, but plenty, plenty of upside.

Garbajosa? We miss him.

As for the European style you talk about, ask yourself, is the pick and roll a European staple? Not at all. It's the dominant offensive play in the NBA and we use it as much more than other NBA teams. I don't think our style is European at all. It's a cliche coined by the media to describe our roster, not the tactics we use on the court. The great European coaches disdain NBA strategy as overly reliant on a couple of basic concepts.

Nor do we take as many 3's as a lot of teams. We do shoot a higher percentage.

We don't play too much zone D. Euro teams play a much greater amount of zone.

So exactly what is this European style? Please enlighten us.

We are one of many jump shooting teams in the NBA. We don't have to be, and it's not because of ethnicity that we might take too many jump shots. Jamario Moon, after all, is hardly a Euro yet Delfino will take the ball to the hoop a lot more than Moon.

Of course we could be the Knicks with no Europeans, and two highly paid low post players.

Trouble is, talented teams that work together are better than talented teams with selfish, ego-centric stars who can't share the ball. And jump shooting teams that work hard and play well together can beat a team with a super low post player as the Nets proved tonight against the Magic.

[HiJiNX]

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Where has all this "winning" been? We're two games above .500 and we were beat by a team we were better than in the playoffs last year primarily because we played scared the first four games. Anytime anybody posts an unpopular opinion on this board ppl jump on that poster, when sometimes they are making a good point.

I really don't feel this team needs any more mediocre Euros. If we can find some excellent European talent or some European talent with toughness, that'd be cool, but I think we're relying too much on this European style of basketball. The problem is thus far, European style basketball does not seem to be very effective in an NBA playoff situation...too much jumpshooting.

Mediocre Euros?

Like Calderon?

Delfino. A South American who came came via trade, for almost nothing, and is exceeding expectations.

Bargnani - has been mediocre for a few weeks, but plenty, plenty of upside.

Garbajosa? We miss him.

As for the European style you talk about, how ignorant are you? Is the pick and roll a European staple? Not at all. It's the dominant offensive play in the NBA and we use it as much more than other NBA teams.

Nor do we take as many 3's as a lot of teams. We do shoot a higher percentage.

We don't play too much zone D. Euro teams play a much greater amount of zone.

So exactly what is this European style? Please enlighten us, though I doubt you can.

Read the rest of my posts in the thread...it should clear up what I was trying to say.

[dagger]

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Read the rest of my posts in the thread...it should clear up what I was trying to say.

Fine, and my point is, perhaps no longer for you specifically, is that we don't play a European style at all. I don't even know what a European style is because there is no one style - some Euro coaches have very elaborate strategies - as complex as a Jerry Sloan playbook.

We're no different than two thirds of the league in our reliance on the jump shot, which is why I hope we see guys like Moon go to the rack and Bargnani continue to develop his dribble penetration/dunk/dish.

[HiJiNX]

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Fine, and my point is, perhaps no longer for you specifically, is that we don't play a European style at all. I don't even know what a European style is because there is no one style - some Euro coaches have very elaborate strategies - as complex as a Jerry Sloan playbook.

We're no different than two thirds of the league in our reliance on the jump shot, which is why I hope we see guys like Moon go to the rack and Bargnani continue to develop his dribble penetration/dunk/dish.

I agree with you.

It's just, well, maybe I'm incorrect in this perception, but I do believe that European players are more reliant on the jumpshot and not as reliant on dribble to the basket skills. And as this team is built the last thing we need is more jumpshooters who are ineffective slashers, so I guess I was just scared our extensive European scouting would just lead to more guys who are primarily jumpshooters.

I feel like this team is not balanced, and is need of a two or a three that can take his man of the dribble consistently (there are other holes on the team as well, though). This team as it is built is not ready to be a contender in the playoffs no matter how many regular season games we win. I also realize we're not a finished product and have faith in Bryan Colangelo to make our roster better. It's just I get scared sometimes when I hear about us scouting Europe so much, because I feel like the typical (in my mind) European player isn't going to help make our roster better. Then again, we probably hear so much about our European scouting because Gherardhini is a European product himself and because we don't hear about our American scouting because we're assumed to be doing that anyway.

[YogiStewart]

ah yes, the new year brings over boatloads of idiots.

i swear, its like some of you are drinking the Don Cherry Kool-Aid. Europeans are soft, eh? Maybe you should go watch clips of what Jimmy the Greek said about black players so you could understand how racist you dumbdumbs sound.

and great teams are able to draft under-the-radar players. If the Raps finish in a playoff spot (which they will), the will have a pick 15 or lower. MG's looking for diamonds in the rough

[RockTHECasbah]

Euros are so macho

[dagger]

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I agree with you.

It's just, well, maybe I'm incorrect in this perception, but I do believe that European players are more reliant on the jumpshot and not as reliant on dribble to the basket skills. And as this team is built the last thing we need is more jumpshooters who are ineffective slashers, so I guess I was just scared our extensive European scouting would just lead to more guys who are primarily jumpshooters.

I feel like this team is not balanced, and is need of a two or a three that can take his man of the dribble consistently (there are other holes on the team as well, though). This team as it is built is not ready to be a contender in the playoffs no matter how many regular season games we win. I also realize we're not a finished product and have faith in Bryan Colangelo to make our roster better. It's just I get scared sometimes when I hear about us scouting Europe so much, because I feel like the typical (in my mind) European player isn't going to help make our roster better. Then again, we probably hear so much about our European scouting because Gherardhini is a European product himself and because we don't hear about our American scouting because we're assumed to be doing that anyway.

Some European teams have an over-reliance on jump shooting, and some don't. They don't have the kind of high flying wing players that create on the drive, but they certainly have points that drive, and forwards that work well inside. Printezis, our second rounder, is more of an inside player than an outside jump shooter. Roko Ukic can drive. As for our American scouting we know BC is out there, our scouting staff is out there. I doubt that we are any less well informed about US college talent than any other good organization. However, while some teams neglect overseas talent, we have a worldwide scouting vision. Since BC has taken over, we have had one first round pick (Bargnani) and two seconds (Tucker and Printezis). Printezis was acquired because he was someone under contract who we could stash overseas. And he was late second round, which is pretty much a throw-away situation. We used our Euro knowledge to bring in Parker and Garbo because they were deemed to be a better use of short-term cap space. We might have offered someone like Peja Stojakovic or Al Harrington crazy money, but in retrospect, neither would have made us any better than we are. But we also signed players like Jones after we had gone after Salmons. Surely the fact we wanted Salmons showed a solid understanding of a good NBA value. On the other hand, BC also wanted to get Marcus Williams in the 2006 draft, and judging by his slow progress at NJ - he stunk tonight - I'd say that he would be a pouting, third stringer basically wearing a suit when TJ and Jose are both healthy.

I think too much is made of the whole Euro thing. We are an NBA team with an NBA game, looking for NBA talent wherever we can find it. While character plays a role in the players we want, the player's passport does not. It just happens that some European players and European-trained Americans have been available for a cheap price and short contracts.

A year or two from now, Bargnani and Calderon might be our only Europeans.

[xAIRNESSx]

Maybe the only teams that want Bargs in a trade are in Europe?

[James699]

nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. Please dont put more Euros on the Raptors. It's already bad as it is. Get some real American boys on the team.

[RaptorGuy]

Does "puzzyness" mean "winning" these days? because that's what the Raptors have been doing with all of their soft Euro scrubs.

I can't keep up with all of this hip teenage lingo. Bad means good, right?

Don't even bother trying to understand that crap. Damn little kids, I'm tired of reading their posts.

[from24ft]

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Don't even bother trying to understand that crap. Damn little kids, I'm tired of reading their posts.

Is this your blog?
http://www.raptorsguy.com/

[Alfred]

Do people not remember the days when American players would go out of their way NOT to sign with the Toronto Raptors? The Raptors, because of their newness to the league, their badness and their location (Canada), were probably at the bottom of players' lists of places they wanted to go.

Now that we started bringing in people who probably prefer the Canadian atmosphere to the American, improved our team drastically and want more than anything to succeed as a team, we can't seem to be happy.

We're scouting a location where we have a great deal of power, where other NBA teams have little. We're scouting a place that has proven that it can create stars and valuable role players. We're scouting a place where the talent level is still relatively unexplored at an NBA level. The signings of Garbajosa and Parker were panned in NBA circles because of where they were from, and because signings of that nature were so new and unusual, the fact that they worked out lends credence to Bryan's philosophy.

Scouting Europe gives us freedom with our roster, and opens options that would otherwise be closed. Trading Parker because we know we can sign someone as productive as him in Europe could be an option. Picking up a Tony Parker or Manu Ginobili with a second rounder is another. Because we have this network in Europe that other teams do not have we have a huge advantage.

Right now, Europe is a strength for us and as the saying goes, you should always play to your strengths. That's not to say that we shouldn't be exploring North American talent as well, but as for the people saying that somehow what Gerardini is doing in Europe is WRONG, they are either misguided or purposfully decieving themselves. The stereotypes about European players may be true, but having a foothold there where we can recruit talent is going to be a net positive for us in the future, not a negative.

[Eating a Book]

I did a quick cursory search of basketballreference.com to see if I could find a stat indicating what percentage of a team's shots were jumpshots.

I know I've seen that somewhere - I don't remember if someone just compiled it on their own or if it was accessible before, but I can't seem to find it now. If anyone knows what I'm talking about, I'd love to have a look at it.

I seem to remember the Spurs being reasonably high on the list of jumpshooting teams, but it's unsubstantial without any evidence.

The internet is hard.