The real reasons we lost last night

[dagger]

Forgetting the pseudo-debate launched by the Bargnani haters, let's look at the real reasons we lost last night so we can have a REAL discussion, and not just trot out hopelessly biased agendas. Heck, the Pistons had seven offensive rebounds, so it's not like Bargnani's rebounding - though poor - had much to do with the game outcome. Missed defensive assignments were an issue, but not just with Bargnani.

1. We got 17 points from six wing players. AP was a disappointment. Carlos Delfino shrunk from the occasion. Maybe he should have played like it did matter he was playing his old team. Kapono came in and got his nearly automatic foul. AP got some looks he likes, but just didn't hit his shots, and shanked a pair of free throws we needed to keep the game close. In contrast, Rip Hamilton and Chauncey Billups hit their shots with regularity. The Pistons were hugely effective at putting their best shooters in the open spots, with room to operate.

2. Good Hump and bad Hump. Despite doing some good things, Hump had some bad moments handling the ball, his shot selection lapsed and we couldn't keep him on the floor.

3. Poor defensive rotations on the perimetre. This gets us back to #1. One of the reasons the Pistons looked so good shooting from mid-range and long-range is that we gave them too much space with slow switches and rotations, for which all players can take blame.

4. Juan Dixon. Sorry, you're not a quality backup point guard. You contributed big time to our struggle at the beginning of the fourth quarter. And I don't see the point of keeping Darrick Martin around if he's not good enough to dress in T.J. Ford's absence. What's the point, BC? Even if you don't go and get a third PG, what's the point in having Darrick Martin around? I can't think of a single reason to have him occupy a roster spot. Better the spot remain empty for a possible later signing.

I have said for many months now that our focus has to be on improving our starting wing positions. AP isn't getting it done. Moon is barely adequate at best for a starter, and ideally should be a reserve. We shouldn't draft or trade to improve any other position until we have improved ourselves at the 2 and/or 3. It is our overwhelming priority.

[C Court]

Agree completely, dagger.

Forget about the theory about the need for a 'true center' in order to compete for a championship. There are not many elite NBA teams who do not have at least one 'lights out' wing player.

Most have two!

Boston has Pierce and Allen. Detroit has Rip and Tayshaun. Yet Toronto starts an aging Anthony Parker and Jamario Moon, a career CBA-er - solid bench players on most teams.

Our wing players have been 'lights off'. AP is a mere shadow of last year's player, both offensively and defensively.

Our poor wing play was never more evident than what I saw at the ACC last night. They were atrocious. My son and I left the game in agreement that the Raptors lost due to a complete lack of production from the 2/3 spots.

I went on record in the preseason that the Raptors need to acquire a top tier 2/3 or they will never take the next step up. I see nothing so far that makes me change my mind.


By the way, for all the Bargnani haters ... it seems that Doug Smith (who has been critical of Bargnani), saw the same game I was at last night:

The Raptors needed all of Bargnani's efforts to stay close because everyone else was struggling.

[ImissJordan]

I agree with both dagger and Centre Court. I've always felt that Kapono, Delfino, Moon and Parker were all effective players, but none should really be thrust into the starting line-up (although Parker played pretty well last season).

[Cassius]

I think the main reason why we lost is that Stuckey is better than Calderon. We really missed Ford.

We really missed Garbo defensively in the 2nd half as well, the points where Moon missed some hasty jumpers probably would have gone differently had Garbo had the ball in his hands.

I wonder if AK trade scenarios involving Moon, Parker and Rasho could be revisited? AK/Collins for those three maybe?

Ford/Calderon
Kapono/Delfino
AK/Joey/Garbo
Bosh/Hump
Drea/Collins

If Martin is added, it works in the trade checker.

[KG1585]

I think the main reason why we lost is that Stuckey is better than Calderon. We really missed Ford.

How was Stuckey batter than Calderon, when they barely played against each other. Also Stuckey had 5 points, and that mostly came at a time when Dixon was in the game, and Detroit made that run at beginning of the fourth quarter. Jose got abused by Billups, but Billups is a tier 1 point guard. Our wings got abused as well.

Also in a game where our wings were struggling, I would've liked Joey getting a chance to play. I know he makes some stupid plays at times, but he could've provided the energy and he can score as well.

[Local_NG_Idiot]

Agreed, I was thinking this exact same thing after the game even before looking at the boxscore.

Even with Bargs not rebounding well when you look at the collective effort from the frontcourt last night of Bosh, Bargs, and Hump they went for 53 points on 20-41 shooting 24 rebounds and 10-16 from the FT line against a very good verteran defensive front court.

In contrast AP, Moon, Delfino, Kapono, and Dixon put up 17 points on 6-24 (ouch) shooting 5 rebounds (Prince finished with 11), 5 assists (Stuckey had 6) and 3-5 from the FT line. Compound that with the poor defence and the wings completely put up a huge goose egg for this team last night.

In contrast, when you look at the Hornets game, Bosh and the frontcourt put up very similar production, but AP had a very good game which resulted in a win.

This team just hasn't brought the same type of intensity on their home court that they did last season. I just kept waiting for these guys to wake up, get aggressive on the defensive end like they've showed they can, get out in the open court and get the crowd involved. But they just never showed any committment to doing so.

[whysoserious]

I'd also add that as good as Calderon has been running the team, he's been exposed on defense several times in our recent games. He lets his man get by too often expecting help that just isn't there and then commits the foul or gives up the easy basket.

I like Calderon and Ford, but Calderon is going to have to work on his defense if he really wants to be a starter in this league. It doesn't have to be lockdown defense, if he can get to average that might suffice.

[El Presidente]

Nice post but you're missing a major point, pardon the pun. Calderon wasn't able to prevent the Piston PG/SGs from breaking him down at will which forced help early in the clock. There goes our defense.

[dont_h8_n8]

Overall I though we played well. We as a team didn't have the same mental toughness as Detroit at the beginning of the fourth. Not to mention Chauncey seemed Jordaneque unstoppable in the fourth quarter.

[JD225]

Basically when a team can expose our back court last night, we don't have a very good chance. I was very surprised to see Flip ignoring his back court in the second half (resting them for Boston?) and going to Sheed in the 3rd. I got the sense that they could get any shot they wanted but were simply cruising.

Hubie pretty much summed up the game yesterday saying something along the lines of The Pistons know exactly who to get the ball to for high percentage shots while the Raptors are struggling to find one efficient scorer on any given possession.

[rapz**7**]

I agree. I also feel we need a bigger guard for defensive matchups. I think at times calderon is simply too small to guard some players and it would be nice if we had someone comeoff the bench who was able to guard the big names in the NBA. I also think Bosh needs to figure out what his role is on the team. I'm not a Bosh hater but sometimes I feel he thinks he needs to do it all by himself which eventually leads to low percentage shots.

[toast]

Dagger you know real discussions will be ignored but I applaud you optimism. Look at the fact that the Bragnani can't rebound has more pages the PG thread.

For those that are even thinking about the fact that we lost this because of our bigs both simply did not see the game do not know basketball or have a desperate personal agenda that they are trying to prove.

For the record Detroits stats all of their big men combined (Wallace,McDyess and Maxiell)
35 pts, 22rb, 3 ass, and 0 blocks
Our bigs of Bosh, Bragnani and Hump
53 pts, 24 rbs, 2 ass, 1 blk
We clearly outperform their bigs in this game

In the larger picture our bigs are very aptly compared to Detroits. Bragnani for all of his critism about rebounding at this stage can be quite accurately compared to Wallaces rebounding. In fact his overall game can be compared. Wallace has had a tonne of 40min 2rb games. To think that Bragnani can't eventually be a 6-7 rb guy is absurd. Hump compares to Maxiell, and Bosh is way better than McDyess.
Yet NO ONE is saying that Detroit does not have the INSIDE presence to make at least a run at the championship

As Jack said all broadcast it is all about Guard play, and we have NO ONE one yet that is even close to championship level guard material. I am happy that with sufficient guard strength like a Detroit we have the bigs to win a championship. Somehow we need a long term small solution. I would be happy with TJ as a possible championship Point if he could maintain his health, but I don't think this is a realistic possibility. Jose is a possibility only if we can get an exceptional defensive guard with him.

It is a long run to the championship however. Anyone thinking that we should have been contenders this year needs to get their heads checked. If we can somehow get decent longterm solutions for out smalls in the next few years we should be contending in 4-5 years. And 4-5 not 1-2 is the window we should be looking at. Bosh and Bragnani will be 29 and 27 respectively.

[dont_h8_n8]

Nice post but you're missing a major point, pardon the pun. Calderon wasn't able to prevent the Piston PG/SGs from breaking him down at will which forced help early in the clock. There goes our defense.

Jose did have his troubles. Both he and TJ get exposed against big guards. Though I do think TJ does a better job of staying in front of his man, plus he is more of a threat to create turnovers on the defensive end.

[El Presidente]

-= original quote snipped =-



Jose did have his troubles. Both he and TJ get exposed against big guards. Though I do think TJ does a better job of staying in front of his man, plus he is more of a threat to create turnovers on the defensive end.

This is not a TJ vs. Jose thing man, I went to the game last night and this is what stuck with me the most. That and Bosh being the only one who's willing to fight for boards.

[KG1585]

This is not a TJ vs. Jose thing man, I went to the game last night and this is what stuck with me the most. That and Bosh being the only one who's willing to fight for boards.

Jose is really bad defensively, but Billups is a guy that will make you look bad as well. Watching the Celtics-Pistons game last week, he abused Rondo, who is considered to be a really good defensive player. I also agree with the notion that Jose needs to get better on the defensive end, if he wants to be a starter in the league.

[El Presidente]

Our poor wing play was never more evident than what I saw at the ACC last night. They were atrocious. My son and I left the game in agreement that the Raptors lost due to a complete lack of production from the 2/3 spots.

I went on record in the preseason that the Raptors need to acquire a top tier 2/3 or they will never take the next step up. I see nothing so far that makes me change my mind.

Yup, I'm not sure if having Jamario Moon play 36 minutes a game is a good thing. His defense has been very inconsistent and offensively it's always going to be a struggle. He's a good 10-20 MPG player who can give you a spark but to ask him to anchor your defense on the perimeter might be too much for him.

I know I'm going to get flamed for this but I think somebody like Richard Jefferson might be a good fit. But I think the reason that this need has come into the spotlight is because of poor and inconsistent play from Parker who was able to defend both the two and three spots effectively last year. Also, we miss Mo Pete on the defensive end although Delfino when playing well can offset that loss.

[C Court]

-= original quote snipped =-

Yup, I'm not sure if having Jamario Moon play 36 minutes a game is a good thing. His defense has been very inconsistent and offensively it's always going to be a struggle. He's a good 10-20 MPG player who can give you a spark but to ask him to anchor your defense on the perimeter might be too much for him.

From the start of the game, the Pistons were playing off Jamario and daring him to shoot. To a large degree their strategy was to double where needed and let Jamario take jump shots.

[Cassius]

-= original quote snipped =-



Yup, I'm not sure if having Jamario Moon play 36 minutes a game is a good thing. His defense has been very inconsistent and offensively it's always going to be a struggle. He's a good 10-20 MPG player who can give you a spark but to ask him to anchor your defense on the perimeter might be too much for him.

I know I'm going to get flamed for this but I think somebody like Richard Jefferson might be a good fit. But I think the reason that this need has come into the spotlight is because of poor and inconsistent play from Parker who was able to defend both the two and three spots effectively last year. Also, we miss Mo Pete on the defensive end although Delfino when playing well can offset that loss.

Fruit Loops is the only Big 3 player that will be in a Nets uni after this season. He's the only one I'd keep, at least.

[letsgofreeslice]

sad reality is that our starting sg and sf combine for under 20 points a game and our "center" isnt even a center hes a very tall all sf that cant defend anyone under 300 pounds.. as good as bargs played lastnite the sad reality is that id still trade him for a box of cereal... b4 u guys start hatin on me let me just tell you id only trade him for the vector cereal so it would be a good trade.. bargs can put up 30 points anynite when he feels it but he couldnt come down with 10 boards if his life depended on it nor could he block with consistancy... period.. trade parker and bargs and get an allstar sg.. i heard mill is dumpin players... caugh REDD caugh

[deknow]

Forgetting the pseudo-debate launched by the Bargnani haters, let's look at the real reasons we lost last night so we can have a REAL discussion, and not just trot out hopelessly biased agendas. Heck, the Pistons had seven offensive rebounds, so it's not like Bargnani's rebounding - though poor - had much to do with the game outcome. Missed defensive assignments were an issue, but not just with Bargnani.

1. We got 17 points from six wing players. AP was a disappointment. Carlos Delfino shrunk from the occasion. Maybe he should have played like it did matter he was playing his old team. Kapono came in and got his nearly automatic foul. AP got some looks he likes, but just didn't hit his shots, and shanked a pair of free throws we needed to keep the game close. In contrast, Rip Hamilton and Chauncey Billups hit their shots with regularity. The Pistons were hugely effective at putting their best shooters in the open spots, with room to operate.

2. Good Hump and bad Hump. Despite doing some good things, Hump had some bad moments handling the ball, his shot selection lapsed and we couldn't keep him on the floor.

3. Poor defensive rotations on the perimetre. This gets us back to #1. One of the reasons the Pistons looked so good shooting from mid-range and long-range is that we gave them too much space with slow switches and rotations, for which all players can take blame.

4. Juan Dixon. Sorry, you're not a quality backup point guard. You contributed big time to our struggle at the beginning of the fourth quarter. And I don't see the point of keeping Darrick Martin around if he's not good enough to dress in T.J. Ford's absence. What's the point, BC? Even if you don't go and get a third PG, what's the point in having Darrick Martin around? I can't think of a single reason to have him occupy a roster spot. Better the spot remain empty for a possible later signing.

I have said for many months now that our focus has to be on improving our starting wing positions. AP isn't getting it done. Moon is barely adequate at best for a starter, and ideally should be a reserve. We shouldn't draft or trade to improve any other position until we have improved ourselves at the 2 and/or 3. It is our overwhelming priority.

100% agreement.

To add, as deep as this team looks on paper if we have to extend mins of our bench players we are in serious trouble. Ford is without a doubt the General of this team, he makes them go. Without him we are barely above an average team. We sorely miss his defense yes FORD'S DEFENSE! and of course his ability to get easy looks for everyone. Like Chauncey said in the post game

"I think they miss him every night. He's their CATALYST although Calderon is really good, TJ is their heartbeat...."


Jose's ole defense was absolutely embarrassing! Chauncey got anything he wanted against him. Its very hard to play defense when in the first few seconds of the shot clock you're forced to help because Jose can't keep his man in front of him. THAT was a major reason why so many were out of place on rotations, as soon as Jose was beat at the point of attack someone was forced to help and then the Pistons just played hot potato till they found a great shot.

Chris Bosh has not yet developed a winners mentality his decision making in late game situations is awful, if he is going to be getting the majority of touches down the stretch of games he HAS TO understand the difference between a good shot and a terrible shot. Too many times this season in close games Bosh has taken 18fters in contrast a guy like Lebron or KG look to score going to the basket. Its that failure to make good decisions at the end of the game that I hope keeps him off the allstar team, he needs to improve immensely in that area to be elite IMHO.

Again I agree with Dagger's evaluation of our swing positions. AP is not getting it done offensively or defensively, Rip abused him everytime he got the ball. AP struggles mightily fighting through screens and whenever the Pistons needed a basket that play was WIDE OPEN. If we are to make the jump to the top tier in the NBA without a doubt we need to upgrade in this area. Moon is not the answer and AP is far from adequate.