Dumars player vs. Colangelo player

Yorkz · Post #1 » by **Yorkz** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:53 pm

Watching the Pistons last night, I was amazed at how every starter and reserve were three-tool players, meaning they could score, rebound and defend proficiently. I know coaching and NBA experience has something to do with it but it's clearly what Dumars looks for in a player.

A few BC acquisitions are closer to a Dumars type - Garbajosa, Parker, but they are in the twilights of their careers (was Shawn Marion a BC pick?). What's interesting to me is that BC is willing to consider one tool/two tool players (Calderon/TJ/Bargnani) as key components while I doubt any of these players could play for Dumars.

Is BC committed to replacing some of the core with 3-tool players (they're less sexy) or players who are not great at scoring but excel in other areas? So far, his track record indicates otherwise.

Hank_Scorpio · Post #2 » by **Hank_Scorpio** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:33 pm

I think you are making an error in your observation.

First of all, you are forgetting Ben Wallace, who was a two-tool player.

But here is the point - before coming to the Pistons, was Hamilton a good defender? Was Billups? Nope.

Coming out of college, was Tayshaun Prince a good scorer? He wasn't.

The point is that these guys developed their skills as part of the Pistons.

The reason they were able to do that is because of the system that is in place - players who came to Detroit understood that they had to commit to playing defense or they weren't going to play - so Hamilton and Billups made it a priority.

That is what happens on good teams - on teams like the Pistons, the Spurs, the Suns, the Mavs - consider Jason Terry. Here are his FG% for his years with Atlanta: .415, .436, .430, .428, .417. Now with Dallas, they were: .501, .470, .484, .487.

Did he become a better player or did he enter a better system?

Post #3 » by **Harry Palmer** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:35 pm

Hank: tool =/= utilized. It is perfectly concurrent with the OP's hypothesis to assume Dumars saw latent ability not being used properly even if we assume that Rip wasn't a good defender, etc.

In any event, as Joe D was just about my favorite all time player, and was ENTIRELY a multi-tool guy, I will talk about this even if the OP was dead wrong, which he wasn't.

Joe D, man, he could do almost anything at a star level when he wanted. Joe D. Man.

dagger · Post #4 » by **dagger** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:38 pm

I remember Rip was a Wizard trying to defend Vince. It was brutal. For that matter, in his first two seasons, I didn't think Rip would amount to anything.

orangutooth · Post #5 » by **orangutooth** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:55 pm

he went with guys with size, strength and athleticism and hoped for the best. he also got positional players. the championship pistons had "true" players at all spots. they didn't have pf's who couldn't play center and shooting guards at small forward.

colangelo, on the other hand, has just gone with shooting and offensively talented pg's. this guy traded marbury for kidd because he preferred shooting. the raptors, and the suns he left both have defensive problems due to the lack of true defenders in the front court.

Hank_Scorpio · Post #6 » by **Hank_Scorpio** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:38 pm

orangutooth wrote:he went with guys with size, strength and athleticism and hoped for the best. he also got positional players. the championship pistons had "true" players at all spots. they didn't have pf's who couldn't play center and shooting guards at small forward.

colangelo, on the other hand, has just gone with shooting and offensively talented pg's. this guy traded marbury for kidd because he preferred shooting. the raptors, and the suns he left both have defensive problems due to the lack of true defenders in the front court.

Hello historical revisionism!!

He traded Kidd because of the spousal abuse issue, not because he preferred a shoot-first point guard.

dacrusha · Post #7 » by **dacrusha** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:42 pm

How many tools did Darko have?

orangutooth · Post #8 » by **orangutooth** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:43 pm

realistically who is going to trade away a hall of famer just because he beat his wife?

Mattd97 · Post #9 » by **Mattd97** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:45 pm

orangutooth wrote:he went with guys with size, strength and athleticism and hoped for the best. he also got positional players. the championship pistons had "true" players at all spots. they didn't have pf's who couldn't play center and shooting guards at small forward.

colangelo, on the other hand, has just gone with shooting and offensively talented pg's. this guy traded marbury for kidd because he preferred shooting. the raptors, and the suns he left both have defensive problems due to the lack of true defenders in the front court.

Hey chief, how about you take a couple plays off? Just go sit down for a while before you hurt yourself. He traded Kidd for Marbury to clear cap space (and sign Nash) and because Kidd was just arested for beating his wife and the folks in Arizona werent pleased about that. And by the way Marbury then lead them to the playoffs and a very near upset of the Spurs. And that has been historically his worst trade ever and it was still excusable. And about only getting shooting and offensive pgs, you realize the heavy criticism of Ford when we got him was his shooting, and that Calderon was brought in by Babcock right? And what about Marion, and Kurt Thomas? But I suppose we should chide BC for drafting Amare with the 9th pick overall who turned into a dominant player but has never polished his defensive game under an offensive oriented coaching system. Or drafting Deng only to see his owners tell him to cut money and trade away picks. How could he not see that coming? What an IDIOT.

GideonRapfan · Post #10 » by **GideonRapfan** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:49 pm

orangutooth wrote:realistically who is going to trade away a hall of famer just because he beat his wife?

The same team that turned around and got rid of Starbury after a DUI?

The team as a whole had a philosophy of zero-tolerance when it came to off-court troubles, if I remember correctly.

orangutooth · Post #11 » by **orangutooth** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:53 pm

offensive pg's are just pg's who shoot. neither calderon or ford were known for shooting but they are both poor defenders. nash is also a poor defender. the guy doesn't take defense into the equation when looking for pg's. on the balance of skills i'm saying he got marbury over kidd because he was willing to give up kidd's defensive/rebounding ability for marbury's shooting. he must've thought marbury was the future since even at that point he was still more of a problem case than kidd, considering he couldn't get along in minnesota.

orangutooth · Post #12 » by **orangutooth** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:55 pm

colangelo was going to draft marcus williams, known computer theif

Post #13 » by **UTMCretin** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:05 pm

dacrusha wrote:How many tools did Darko have?

All of them.

MacDaddy · Post #14 » by **MacDaddy** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:22 pm

orangutooth wrote:colangelo was going to draft marcus williams, known computer theif

This may shock you, but stealing computers =/= beating your wife.

Post #15 » by **Harry Palmer** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:24 pm

MacDaddy wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

This may shock you, but stealing computers =/= beating your wife.

Only because of the Haight-Ashbury leftovers we have running the legal system these days.

RockTHECasbah · Post #16 » by **RockTHECasbah** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:27 pm

Both are still bad, its funny how Colangelo seemed clueless about it in the "Behind the Draft" video