Andrea...now vs the future?

[El Presidente]

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lol at nobody's hopping on bandwagons. last year everyone was on bargnani's balls and this year a whole influx of posters have come out declaring him a bust. if this isn't bandwagon hopping idk what is. obviously no one expected him to play like crap. but please list all the players averaging 18 and 8 and tell me if bargnani really was supposed to be in that category this year. 14 and 6 would've been more realistic expectations for this year.

Well, let me clear that: I wasn't jumping on bandwagons. I just gave you an example of a player in the same class as him, playing a similar position as him averaging 18+. Your estimate is pessimistic while mine is optimistic, there's a middle ground somewhere in there which is probably more reasonable.

However, you're missing the point and getting caught up in numbers. What I'm trying to say is that if he had actually performed up to expectations (even yours), we'd be a much better team and also wouldn't have to rotate him out of the lineup so often causing a ripple effect that ultimately affects and weakens the second unit.

PS: What's up with the green font?

[reck0n3r]

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lol at nobody's hopping on bandwagons. last year everyone was on bargnani's balls and this year a whole influx of posters have come out declaring him a bust. if this isn't bandwagon hopping idk what is. obviously no one expected him to play like crap. but please list all the players averaging 18 and 8 and tell me if bargnani really was supposed to be in that category this year. 14 and 6 would've been more realistic expectations for this year.

Well taking into consideration that he was 14.9/5 or 6 already in the 2nd half of last season, 16/6-17/6 was a very realistic prognostication.

[reck0n3r]

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Well, let me clear that: I wasn't jumping on bandwagons. I just gave you an example of a player in the same class as him, playing a similar position as him averaging 18+. Your estimate is pessimistic while mine is optimistic, there's a middle ground somewhere in there which is probably more reasonable.

However, you're missing the point and getting caught up in numbers. What I'm trying to say is that if he had actually performed up to expectations (even yours), we'd be a much better team and also wouldn't have to rotate him out of the lineup so often causing a ripple effect that ultimately affects and weakens the second unit.

PS: What's up with the green font?

I think you're missing the point in that there's bigger problems than simply chalking it up to 'he's not performing'.

[Boogie!]

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Well, let me clear that: I wasn't jumping on bandwagons. I just gave you an example of a player in the same class as him, playing a similar position as him averaging 18+. Your estimate is pessimistic while mine is optimistic, there's a middle ground somewhere in there which is probably more reasonable.

However, you're missing the point and getting caught up in numbers. What I'm trying to say is that if he had actually performed up to expectations (even yours), we'd be a much better team and also wouldn't have to rotate him out of the lineup so often causing a ripple effect that ultimately affects and weakens the second unit.

PS: What's up with the green font?

i was never caught up in numbers. i was trying to make people calm down and be patient with bargnani. i think expectations are part of the reason why so many people are hating and the hating bothers me. at the same time, you gave me someone who from the same class, not someone who's averaging 18/8. but like somewhatdamaged explained, it's more than just bargnani sucks and isn't playing good. there's a legimitate problem mentally. he's not the same guy in those pictures above. he's the exact opposite right now. i just want him to start playing better so people shuttup.

[El Presidente]

i was never caught up in numbers. i was trying to make people calm down and be patient with bargnani. i think expectations are part of the reason why so many people are hating and the hating bothers me.

When expectations (even yours) aren't met, criticisms follow. There shouldn't be any surprises here. Some of the younger fans which are labeled as "bandwagoners" probably talk a little above their knowledge-level which might piss people off, I totally see that.

you gave me someone who from the same class, not someone who's averaging 18/8.

Aldridge is averaging 17.8 and 7.4, close enough.

but like somewhatdamaged explained, it's more than just bargnani sucks and isn't playing good. there's a legimitate problem mentally. he's not the same guy in those pictures above. he's the exact opposite right now. i just want him to start playing better so people shuttup.

There's a mental problem? Are you referring to confidence? Playing at the 5? Smitch being mean to him? Him not getting consistent minutes? Foul trouble? Those are more excuses than problems IMHO.

I want him to play better more than anyone and still believe this guy can be a good contributor to this team but when I look at his play, his growth and the effort that he appears to exude, I just don't see it happening. Hopefully it's all just one big funk but the longer it goes on, the less likely that appears to be the case.

[ilikecb4]

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lol at nobody's hopping on bandwagons. last year everyone was on bargnani's balls and this year a whole influx of posters have come out declaring him a bust. if this isn't bandwagon hopping idk what is. obviously no one expected him to play like crap. but please list all the players averaging 18 and 8 and tell me if bargnani really was supposed to be in that category this year. 14 and 6 would've been more realistic expectations for this year.

quit using that **** green font...Bargniani could average 14 to 18...but he just isn't a big part (or a part) of our offense..

[Boogie!]

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There's a mental problem? Are you referring to confidence? Playing at the 5? Smitch being mean to him? Him not getting consistent minutes? Foul trouble? Those are more excuses than problems IMHO.

I want him to play better more than anyone and still believe this guy can be a good contributor to this team but when I look at his play, his growth and the effort that he appears to exude, I just don't see it happening. Hopefully it's all just one big funk but the longer it goes on, the less likely that appears to be the case.

smitch being mean to him and not talking to him are completely different things. smitch is mean to jamario moon. he doesn't shun him. and if that is an excuse, then what is a problem in your opinion? the thing is a player who has the ability that bargnani has and has shown in the past, doesn't just become crap after a season for no reason.

[Boogie!]

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quit using that **** green font...Bargniani could average 14 to 18...but he just isn't a big part (or a part) of our offense..

quit using black font, it's boring.

[ilikecb4]

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quit using black font, it's boring.

at least it dont hurt ma eyes

[reck0n3r]

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quit using black font, it's boring.

[Boogie!]

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at least it dont hurt ma eyes

you should probably get them checked.

[Egg Nog]

Call me crazy but I'd seriously consider trading bargs for him, if your other statements are correct (about teammates also turning on him now). I feel bad for the guy. If that really truly is the case, I say ship him out and let him have a fresh start in a place where they can try to build around him.

Dude, I don't know how anybody could possibly call you crazy to do a trade like this. You would have to be clinically insane to want Bargnani over Dalembert.

[KingClutch]

So, when Andrea was demoted to the bench early in the season, people were up in arms because we needed Andrea to learn his position, and we needed to suffer for the sake of the future.

Well, he got his chance and we are where we are.

Basically, the team plays better with him on the bench. He's never around in crunch time and he gets more fouls than points.

I do think he's learning, but boy, he's doing it really slowly. In fact, he may have reached his ceiling, as a centre, for THIS YEAR. He needs some serious coaching when it comes to rebounding and staying with his man, off the ball.

I'm thinking we've gotten all we can out of this experiment for this year. If we put Rasho back in, we go back to more consistency, and Andrea gets his PT with the second stringers. We all know the team is better off that way THIS YEAR (I keep stressing this year because I'm not a Bargnani hater...I want what's best for the team).

We need this team to get going, so we can be ready come playoff time. We can't start Andrea in the playoffs in this experimental manner, where we expect him to foul out quickly, and where he's so low on confidence he can't even hit his shots......his bread and butter!!!

Do we care about the playoffs this year, or do we keep using this season as practice time???

So you expect us to just skip the "suffering stage"? This IS the suffering stage, so stop complaining after every game.

[KingClutch]

So, when Andrea was demoted to the bench early in the season, people were up in arms because we needed Andrea to learn his position, and we needed to suffer for the sake of the future.

Well, he got his chance and we are where we are.

Basically, the team plays better with him on the bench. He's never around in crunch time and he gets more fouls than points.

I do think he's learning, but boy, he's doing it really slowly. In fact, he may have reached his ceiling, as a centre, for THIS YEAR. He needs some serious coaching when it comes to rebounding and staying with his man, off the ball.

I'm thinking we've gotten all we can out of this experiment for this year. If we put Rasho back in, we go back to more consistency, and Andrea gets his PT with the second stringers. We all know the team is better off that way THIS YEAR (I keep stressing this year because I'm not a Bargnani hater...I want what's best for the team).

We need this team to get going, so we can be ready come playoff time. We can't start Andrea in the playoffs in this experimental manner, where we expect him to foul out quickly, and where he's so low on confidence he can't even hit his shots......his bread and butter!!!

Do we care about the playoffs this year, or do we keep using this season as practice time???

So you expect us to just skip the "suffering stage"? This IS the suffering stage, so stop complaining after every game.

[tecumseh18]

The problem with starting Rasho early in the season was that we didn't have enough offence out there to start the game with Moon at sf. Moon has certainly improved his shooting in the last month, and while 15 ppg is probably not likely, it's not impossible either.

The reason we're freaking out about Bargs is not that he's experiencing growing pains, it's that he shows all the signs of having quit on the team.

Boogie downplayed bench dynamics earlier in the thread, which reminded me of this incident in the Sacramento game. Kapono had just capped off a Raptor run in Q2 with his second straight three-ball. On the TV (at least the Kings feed), you could see AP and Moon rise together and both give the exact same fist pump, with competitive fire in their eyes, as Kapono buried the three in his inimitable style. Then they applauded as the Kings called a TO. Bargs was sitting right behind them, and he slowly rose a few seconds later and started to slowly clap his hands with his eyes on the scoreboard. It was like a big effort for him to pretend to care what was going on.

It bothered me at the time. Still does.

[asif9t9]

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So you expect us to just skip the "suffering stage"? This IS the suffering stage, so stop complaining after every game.

I appreciate you at least are responding to my OP. I know this is what suffering is supposed to be about. But there's a difference here. We know Seattle might be suffering by giving Durant lots of PT. But they have no choice. They're not going to win any more games without him, or get into the playoffs.

But with the Raps, I do believe we have the makings of a team here. We have an all-star. Solid PG play. Lots of depth, which means if one guy is struggling, someone else can always sub in. We have some pieces.

At some point, we need to stop the experiment.....put it on hold, and go back to a lineup that can win. Someone else said Rasho can get back into the starting lineup in 3 games. Or even just for the first game of the playoffs.

Perhaps. But we know Andrea won't be able to get in the 2nd stringer lineup so easily. He won't have Jose or TJ (possibly). And Andrea needs to learn to play with Hump and Carlos and Kapono and whoever else. Lots to learn.

And we need to get back to winning now, because we need to try and sew up that 4th spot, for home advantage in at least the first round.

Speaking of Andrea. He's reminding me of Joey now. Making the same mistakes over and over.

[Tommy Gun]

Neither

[deknow]

Just got back from the Sixer-Raptor game in Philadelphia and let me say that whatever the Raps are trying to do with Bargs, it had better work or else Barg could turn out to be one of the worse #1 pick in any professional sport period.

Bargs was completely confused out there. His first foul was from overaggression on defense, the second was accidental with Evans running into Bargs' elbow and the third was VERY POOR footing.

Now, for the worse part. One, Barg has VERY SMALL hands in relation to the rest of him. So already, he's not going to be a good rebounder. Second, he's bigger than Bosh but not very defined. That might take time. Thirdly, his facial expressions while at the bench is NOT conducive to success. "Deer in the headlights", completely rattled, glass eyed. He's in trouble.

I also don't think his teammates are supporting him anymore either. There was one play where the ball hit the rim, bounced to the front of the rim and no Raptor was there. Bosh flipped out completely on the court. Then, at a time out, Bosh needed to be physically restraint by Martin (in his suit) to be stopped from going after a player. There were two players close to that loose rebound. One was Moon and the other was Bargs. I don't think he was going after Moon. Teammates at the bench also don't talk to him anymore. He sat next to Kapono the whole game and not one word was exchanged between the two. You would think Rasho would be there but he's not.

There's a real problem in Raptorland with Bargs. I personally think he's more suited for PF position. But, since Bosh is there, that's a big problem. So either be content that Bargs is going to be backup to Bosh or move him while he still has value. Although things can change in years to come (ie Bargs can fill out, learn his position, etc) but I hope he can improve. I seriously do.

BTW, wouldn't Dalembert look good next to Bosh or what?

Ouch. I saw the blow up on the court too. This is getting from bad to worse, but truly if his teammates won't support him I see no end to this.

Bargs seems to always have this deer in the headlights look about him and he looks completely uncomfortable on the court it is REALLY embarrassing. But keep in mind this is his first bit of action at centre. Last year he played PF for most for his time. The Centre position is definitely the hardest to adjust to in the NBA and it may take him more time than we'd like for him to feel comfortable there.

My patience is wearing thin but its not like we could trade him now.

[Rhettmatic]

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Ouch. I saw the blow up on the court too. This is getting from bad to worse, but truly if his teammates won't support him I see no end to this.

Bargs seems to always have this deer in the headlights look about him and he looks completely uncomfortable on the court it is REALLY embarrassing. But keep in mind this is his first bit of action at centre. Last year he played PF for most for his time. The Centre position is definitely the hardest to adjust to in the NBA and it may take him more time than we'd like for him to feel comfortable there.

My patience is wearing thin but its not like we could trade him now.

This is a worthwhile point, but I point to Dixon as an example of someone trying to get used to a new position the right way. He's not a point guard, and he never has been. And he's been struggling. But every time I see him in the game, he's working his ass off, diving for loose balls and giving his all.

Sometimes Bargnani seems to be playing hard too, but sometimes he looks like he's loafing it or sulking. And it's tough to take.

[deknow]

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This is a worthwhile point, but I point to Dixon as an example of someone trying to get used to a new position the right way. He's not a point guard, and he never has been. And he's been struggling. But every time I see him in the game, he's working his ass off, diving for loose balls and giving his all.

Sometimes Bargnani seems to be playing hard too, but sometimes he looks like he's loafing it or sulking. And it's tough to take.

Dixon played some PG at Maryland. He can handle the ball, the biggest adjustment for him is just how he thinks the game. Bargs has been thrusted into a role he may never be able to play but if history has taught us anything its that Centre's take longer to develop at the NBA level. Look at Chandler, everyone thought he was a bust and now he's getting tryouts for the US olympic team. As much as it burns me to say it, we have to wait and be patient with Bargnani. He has been ABSOLUTELY BRUTAL so far but to trade him now won't get us much in return.