Calerdon/Bosh = Stockton/Malone

[ImissJordan]

This is one of the more idiotic threads I've seen on RealGM.

We're talking about arguably the best power forward and the best point guard of all-time, then comparing them to two guys who can't even claim to be the best at their respective positions today (Jose may not even be in the Top 10, depending on who you talk to).

Stupid.

[Double Y]

I don't think he was comparing the players as a whole - just the combination. Obviously, this is flying over some of your heads, and you are making him out to be another delusional fan. I think that Calderon and Bosh run the pick and roll better than anyone in the league, and based on era's, they can be compared to Stockton/Malone - BASED ON THE PICK AND ROLL ONLY. Stockton/Malone were the best in the late 80's/early 90's.

You just pointed out your own error. You can't selectively make one comparison and then call it valid. It's like comparing apples and organges because they're both fruit, or they both have skin, or they both have seeds. You can compare stats and say over the last 6 games they're similar (which, by the way, is too small of a sample size anyway) but that's like comparing Jose Calderone and Anthony Parker because they have same # of ppg, or Rasho Nesterovic and Joey Graham because they have the same # of ppg.

In the end, the OP comparison is only similar (and only over the stretch of 6 games), because JC and CB play the same position as Stockton and Malone, they run the pick and roll, and the stats over that span are similar. How they actually execute, where they stuff their stats, and the style of their play are completely different.

Honestly, don't even go there!

[True Warrior Zo]

i have two objections to this thread
1. why is the bosh/malone numbers only there for one year. it seems like there was something else that your hiding from your observation.

2. this thread really begins and ends with stocktons assist numbers that first year posted. 0.2 less than calderon this year, while playing much less time. it was clear even from that year of stockton only starting 2 games that he was going to be a great passing guard.

[AB_21]

If Jose=John Stockton and someone says TJ>Jose. HOLY!

[Flagrant Foul]

These comparisons really make no sense. Karl Malone was a MUCH better player than Chris Bosh. Do you honestly think that when Bosh's career is over it will be better than Malone's? Karl Malone was one of the best power forwards of all time. Chris Bosh is a great player, but he's not in the same level as Malone. The Stockton/Calderon comparison is closer, but still not a good one. Stockton was a much better shooter and defender.

[Franchise_411]

Bosh - more finese, better shooter; Malone - more physical, better post game

Stockton - two-way player; Calderon - offensive player, his defense (refer to the Calderon Defense thread)

pick-and-roll plays are really the only similarity, but then again other big-small combos in the league also run the pick-and-roll, so nothing special ...

all-in-all sharp contrasts ...

[Hendrix]

Well the comparison is rediculous. These guys are both top 2-3 at their positions of all time. Calderon's a good player, but come on he's like a fringe top 10 pg with no defence. Bosh is maybe a top 5 PF in his era. Far away from one of the best of all time, and has a completly different game.

imo calderon is awful at finding bosh and getting him the ball at good positions. calderon does the same pick and roll with everyone but he can't even feed bosh in the paint properly.

I don't agree with this though. Calderon is far from awful at getting Bosh the ball. If Bosh get's position he's very good at making entry passes. Bosh isn't that great at the P+R but I think Calderon plays it much better with Bosh then TJ.

[reptar15]

I don't agree with this though. Calderon is far from awful at getting Bosh the ball. If Bosh get's position he's very good at making entry passes. Bosh isn't that great at the P+R but I think Calderon plays it much better with Bosh then TJ.

calderon is a solid point guard but he gets really over rated here.

he runs the pick and roll well but he is awful at getting the ball inside to bosh. bosh some times struggles to get good position but he does get himself in to the blocks and waiting for the entry pass but calderon always swings it to the other side. at the same time when bosh kicks the ball out and tries to re establish his position the ball NEVER gets fed back to him. i have never seen the ball go into bosh's hands and kicked out and then sent back to him.

[Hendrix]

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calderon is a solid point guard but he gets really over rated here.

he runs the pick and roll well but he is awful at getting the ball inside to bosh. bosh some times struggles to get good position but he does get himself in to the blocks and waiting for the entry pass but calderon always swings it to the other side. at the same time when bosh kicks the ball out and tries to re establish his position the ball NEVER gets fed back to him. i have never seen the ball go into bosh's hands and kicked out and then sent back to him.

I really don't know how you can say that though. Calderon's not very good at creating, but making entry passes, and the pass to Parker to make an entry pass he is pretty good at imo. Usually they don't throw it back down to Bosh a 2nd time because the defence sends over a double team, and part of the Raptors offense is to swing the ball around, and catch the defence before they're set again. Calderon, and the team has made a good effort to get Bosh a lot of quality touches especially lately and he's been playing some of the best ball of his career. If Calderon was Awful at getting Bosh the ball I don't think we'd be seeing Bosh playing so well.

[reptar15]

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I really don't know how you can say that though. Calderon's not very good at creating, but making entry passes, and the pass to Parker to make an entry pass he is pretty good at imo. Usually they don't throw it back down to Bosh a 2nd time because the defence sends over a double team, and part of the Raptors offense is to swing the ball around, and catch the defence before they're set again. Calderon, and the team has made a good effort to get Bosh a lot of quality touches especially lately and he's been playing some of the best ball of his career. If Calderon was Awful at getting Bosh the ball I don't think we'd be seeing Bosh playing so well.

last game was a perfect example of how they don't go to bosh unless they feel like they really need to. bosh should always be their first option but calderon always swings it the other way.

[easyflow]

Go back and watch some tapes of Stockton & Malone back in the day and then come back and tell me what you think. I think most of the posters in here are too young and only remember the last few years stockton and malone played together, where their use of the pick and roll was legendary because of how long they played together. This takes time.

All I am saying, is at the beginning of their careers, the combination of calderon & bosh remind me a lot of stockton & malone. And the numbers show that as well. Yes, stockton was a great defender, but he wasn't the best athlete on the court was he? He was a great defender, and I believe Calderon has the capacity to be the same type of player.

I've been super impressed with Calderon's passing decisions, his assist to turnover ratio is the best in the NBA. Everyone may say we are overrating Calderon, but I think this guy is really something special. He's getting more minutes now, and his production has gone up big time. Forget about TJ - if he still even has some value, lets trade him. Unfortunetely, I think BC waited on this and now we're going to pay for that.

And Bosh isn't really a finesse player, is that what you guys think? This guy is best when he is attacking the basket and dunking on people. I don't compare his directly to Malone - obviously a different type of player. But the combo just FEELS the same to me after being around to watch many many years of Stockton and Malone throughout the late 80's and 90's.

Hate away, it's a better comparison than Calderon & Nash. lol

[easyflow]

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last game was a perfect example of how they don't go to bosh unless they feel like they really need to. bosh should always be their first option but calderon always swings it the other way.

Bosh has been averaging 31ppg & 11rpg in last 6 games, Calderon 13pts & 10apg in last 6. wow. thats something to build on! are you trying to say that calderon is not looking for bosh???? to me this is the best combination of 2 players the raptors have ever had. they are strong players, strong will to win, very positive both on court and off. these 2 are the future of the raptors!

Why would any of you guys hate when we finally have a PG/PF combo that is really clicking. So we lost last game, we had a bad game and our guys know it. Next.

[Cassius]

Calderon is closer to Matt Maloney than John Stockton. If you saw the Rockets-Jazz series where they squared off, the results would be similar, too.

And Jose can't/doesn't throw an entry pass.

At least Bosh has the same 15 footer and drives to the middle that Malone had.

[reptar15]

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Bosh has been averaging 31ppg & 11rpg in last 6 games, Calderon 13pts & 10apg in last 6. wow. thats something to build on! are you trying to say that calderon is not looking for bosh???? to me this is the best combination of 2 players the raptors have ever had. they are strong players, strong will to win, very positive both on court and off. these 2 are the future of the raptors!

Why would any of you guys hate when we finally have a PG/PF combo that is really clicking. So we lost last game, we had a bad game and our guys know it. Next.

how many times in a game do the raptors bring the ball feed bosh the ball directly in the post where he's almost always matched up against a big man who is a lot slower than him? we only do this when the game is on the line. other than that the ball is being swung around the perimeter.

[reptar15]

Calderon is closer to Matt Maloney than John Stockton. If you saw the Rockets-Jazz series where they squared off, the results would be similar, too.

And Jose can't/doesn't throw an entry pass.


At least Bosh has the same 15 footer and drives to the middle that Malone had.

exactly
one day calderon is gonna turn bosh into bargnani (no post game) lol

[Raptolicism]

John Stockton is the all-time leader in assists(over Magic) and steals(over MJ).

[J~Rush]

Thank god for fans

[kmatrixg]

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You just pointed out your own error. You can't selectively make one comparison and then call it valid. It's like comparing apples and organges because they're both fruit, or they both have skin, or they both have seeds. You can compare stats and say over the last 6 games they're similar (which, by the way, is too small of a sample size anyway) but that's like comparing Jose Calderone and Anthony Parker because they have same # of ppg, or Rasho Nesterovic and Joey Graham because they have the same # of ppg.

Selective comparison is a widely known psychological and scientific form of study. It's very well known. In fact, its pretty much the basis of any statistical study. Like I said before, to compare them as complete players, is obviously wrong, and not even a close comparison. But based on who the best "pick and roll" tandem was now, and then, is a valid point, and in that argument lies the truth that they are similar in that aspect alone.

You brought this topic from its actuality to, again, its very meaning of falsity. Instead of seeing it as a study of "Best Pick and Roll Tandem" you bring it deeper, therefore breaking the selective comparison trend, and making it into something much more deep and false - a comparison of players as a whole. Sure, they aren't the same players AT ALL. I agree with that statement completely. But in ranks of best Pick and Roll tandem in each of their respective eras, they are similar IN THAT WAY.

Selective comparison. Me and Bosh are similar in a way because we both have dreadlocks.

[Southward1]

it's not that bad of a comparison, but yeah...the jazz duo is better. Bosh is obviously closer to his counterpart.

My comparison would be

Mark Price, and David Robinson

[easyflow]

it's not that bad of a comparison, but yeah...the jazz duo is better. Bosh is obviously closer to his counterpart.

My comparison would be

Mark Price, and David Robinson

Check these out and tell me you guys don't get the same feeling:

Stockton/Malone videos
http://youtube.com/watch?v=zChWYau6SyI&feature=related
http://www.realgm.com/boards/posting.ph ... p=15195958
http://youtube.com/watch?v=U_lE70C21ZA&feature=related

Calderon/bosh videos
http://youtube.com/watch?v=oK3JbLXT_Ek&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=uHcwb_PIrWI&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rk4pbBNVIVA

sure, bosh is not as big & physical, he'll never be as dominant as Malone in the lowpost, but the potential is there. You guys are all so cynical, all I'm saying is that the recent play and stats of Calderon/Bosh is comparable to Stockton/Malone in their first few seasons together. They weren't the machine they became until later in their careers...

Keep Calderon & Bosh together for the next 10 years, you guys think we could have something special there or no? Personally I do.

If you look back at the history books, you'll also note that the Jazz had a record similar to the raptors in the 80's, and didn't get past the 2nd round of the playoffs until the 90's (when Stockton & Malone were into their 6th seasons). In fact, the Jazz also didn't hit a 50 win season until 88-89' season... very similar to Raptors situation, only 20 years ago. Funny.

All I'm saying is there is a case to make a comparison, it's up to live up to their potential.