Is it time for Bargs to go back to the bench?

[reck0n3r]

Wow, a lot of Tmac hate. Firstly, he never hated the city of Toronto. He said he didn't even think it was as cold as he thought it would be. He was still close with Vince even right after he signed with Orlando. There was no family "fued" whatsoever. He admitted that he felt like he wasn't given enough chances to prove himself in his first two seasons, which ultimately became one of the reasons why he left. He mentioned how Butch Carter was the first person to give him a real shot to show what he can do on the court. He never hated on anyone. Not Butch, Vince, or even Darryl(sp?) actually. He had a chance to go home to play. They all helped him grow into a better player.

He's still one of my favourite players. I watched basically any interview I could find. Stop exaggerating everything to build up hate against him.

People can hate on him about being lazy and inconsistent, but he still garners a double team whenever he gets the ball. He still has unbelievable talent. If he didn't, why do you think the defense always helps even when he's 20-23 ft away from the hoop?

And regarding Andrea, we all know he has potential. He's arguable the quickest centre in the league and has a decent touch. Right now, he's letting the media and everything get to his head. He's thinking too much on offense and defense. Just look at him pump fake with no one on him. He gives up quickly on defense because he feels as though he already blew his assignment. He just needs to do two things: practice his shooting since it's weaker than Hump's at the moment, and hit the weight room. The rest comes with playing time.

Nobody is treating this situation correctly. He could become a very deadly player, but at this rate, he won't be a Raptor when it happens.

That's what I'm trying to get across. I never said he hated the city of toronto, he hated the situation because of what happened his first two seasons.

Also, who's hating on mcgrady? No one is, so relax. I'm just pointing out that mcgrady struggled his first two seasons here only to turn into a great player once given the chance. I guess the one person who said he's still showing signs of being lazy from time to time is what you're aiming at, but that's just one person.

[pierrot]

The problem with bringing Bargnani off the bench is that he's been moved around too much already. He shouldn't have been promoted to the starting line-up at the beginning of the season, he shouldn't have been demoted, and he shouldn't have been promoted back. In my view every move has been a mistake because each one has been a completely unnecessary distraction. What have these moves accomplished?

[wille-dynamite]

I say play Bargs 35 mins a game and expose him for what he is...a bust.
Next year put him on the bench next to Joey Graham, two players that have the tools but cant/wont put it together.

[wille-dynamite]

my gut tells me he will be traded though.

[youreachiteach]

The problem with bringing Bargnani off the bench is that he's been moved around too much already. He shouldn't have been promoted to the starting line-up at the beginning of the season, he shouldn't have been demoted, and he shouldn't have been promoted back. In my view every move has been a mistake because each one has been a completely unnecessary distraction. What have these moves accomplished?

I don't buy that.

Last year, before the appendectomy, he was clearly in the running to take the number one spot from Rasho--he was playing that well.
When he came back--hurt and tired and having to adjust to a whole other level of intensity--was one of our best players in the playoffs after a game or two of rust came off.

He EARNED that starting spot from his play prior to his injury and after the playoff performance.

He started the first five games with confidence and performed well--but Bosh wasn't and Sam freaked. Bosh, being more important and all (which he is), got himself together at the expense of Andrea;s minutes. Then Andrea got hurt and couldn't get his confidence back.

The GM was then FORCED to remind Sam he had better work with this kid, as he was the new center and Rasho wasn't doing a whole lot better once he tired out after a handful of games.

Voila! Youhave today's situation with a disgruntled backup who thinks he should start and a starter whose confidence is almsot nill.

Now, if your point is that BARGS has been mishandled, then I agree. But don't pretend he didn't earn that position--he did.

[Yosemite Dan]

Wow some of you guys can get really creative with the excuses for Bargs. I suspect most of these excuses would be more believable if Aesop used them for his next fable book.

What all these excuses don't change is one damning fact. Andrea in his first 2 seasons, without a doubt, has been the most babied rookie\sophmore Raptor in the club's history. The team has bent over backwards and made every excuse in the book to try and make him feel comfortable. In their next move to help him adjust I'm almost expecting the Raps to give Bargs' mommy the parking spot that Vince's mommy used to have and I don't think she even has a valid Canadian driver's license.

[galeon110]

Wow some of you guys can get really creative with the excuses for Bargs. I suspect most of these excuses would be more believable if Aesop used them for his next fable book.

What all these excuses don't change is one damning fact. Andrea in his first 2 seasons, without a doubt, has been the most babied rookie\sophmore Raptor in the club's history. The team has bent over backwards and made every excuse in the book to try and make him feel comfortable. In their next move to help him adjust I'm almost expecting the Raps to give Bargs' mommy the parking spot that Vince's mommy used to have and I don't think she even has a valid Canadian driver's license.

First of all, he's being "babied" because they're trying to help him adjust to a new country. Second, I'm pretty sure he's the only rookie in Raptors history who had an appendectomy and an injury in the second year. So before you start hating on him, it's not called babying, it's encouraging and adjusting.

[Yosemite Dan]

-= original quote snipped =-


First of all, he's being "babied" because they're trying to help him adjust to a new country. Second, I'm pretty sure he's the only rookie in Raptors history who had an appendectomy and an injury in the second year. So before you start hating on him, it's not called babying, it's encouraging and adjusting.

See what I mean about the creative excuses.

[JD225]

That would be a very poor decision on our part to bench him and "bring him along slowly". It would make our management look very indecisive and would be a clear sign we have given up on him.

All you are really doing is avoiding the inevitable of a Bosh/Bargnani front court while diminishing his trade value at the same time. Either let him play through all of his struggles (that was the whole point in starting him) or trade him.

[Sun Tzu]

**** team doesn't pass him the ball. How many times did he have open looks in the post yesterday and got ignored by the rest of the lineup. I hope he just stands up for himself one night and get into the faces of his teammates. Yell at them like CB did to him, get pissed off at them on live tv. Send them a message because it's getting ridiculous. He's working his ass off in the post trying to get position only to be ignored and left out of the play.

The only thing that is getting ridiculous here is that people keep saying this. If anyone can think of a better metric for determining whether Andrea is getting the ball, I would be happy to hear it but - below are the numbers (for the starters this season) for shots taken per minute played:

Bosh - 0.43 FGA/Min
Andrea - 0.37 FGA/Min
TJ - 0.35 FGA/Min
Delfino - 0.32 FGA/Min
Parker- 0.31 FGA/Min
Jose - 0.30 FGA/Min

So, would you - or anyone else - mind telling me exactly what it is you mean when you say that Bargnani is being overlooked when he is on the floor?

[Yosemite Dan]

[quote="Sun Tzu"][/quote]

With the Bargs' apologists there's a widespread case of selective memory so they only remember the recent 0-4 game that doesn't allow to get him into his rhythm but have trouble regurgitating those multiple 3-13 shooting nights.

[A_wildstabatanything]

-= original quote snipped =-



With the Bargs' apologists there's a widespread case of selective memory so they only remember the recent 0-4 game that doesn't allow to get him into his rhythm but have trouble regurgitating those multiple 3-13 shooting nights.

- Carlos Delfino has taken more shots than Bargnani this year. This is a player who barely averaged 4 PPG in his first 3 seasons and never shot a good percentage.

- Jamario Moon has taken 17 less shots than Andrea in the same amount of games.


Andrea was drafted 1st overall to be a scorer. Sam doesn't think his offense is important right now and that's a huge mistake. As a result he's created a much bigger problem because he now has a player who has nothing to build on.

If Bargnani is scoring 12-14 PPG consisently and is confident it's not going to go away it's a lot easier to develop those other skills and add to his game.

Instead Sam has opted to break him down completely in order to build him back up in his own image. The problem with this is that Sam doesn't have a f'n clue how to do it... and now we're seeing the results of that.

[ScorKreaDagger]

The problem with bringing Bargnani off the bench is that he's been moved around too much already. He shouldn't have been promoted to the starting line-up at the beginning of the season, he shouldn't have been demoted, and he shouldn't have been promoted back. In my view every move has been a mistake because each one has been a completely unnecessary distraction. What have these moves accomplished?

I don't buy that.

Last year, before the appendectomy, he was clearly in the running to take the number one spot from Rasho--he was playing that well.
When he came back--hurt and tired and having to adjust to a whole other level of intensity--was one of our best players in the playoffs after a game or two of rust came off.

He EARNED that starting spot from his play prior to his injury and after the playoff performance.

He started the first five games with confidence and performed well--but Bosh wasn't and Sam freaked. Bosh, being more important and all (which he is), got himself together at the expense of Andrea;s minutes. Then Andrea got hurt and couldn't get his confidence back.
The GM was then FORCED to remind Sam he had better work with this kid, as he was the new center and Rasho wasn't doing a whole lot better once he tired out after a handful of games.

Voila! Youhave today's situation with a disgruntled backup who thinks he should start and a starter whose confidence is almsot nill.

Now, if your point is that BARGS has been mishandled, then I agree. But don't pretend he didn't earn that position--he did.

Great point. Bargs was actually playing pretty well ayt the beginning of the year while Bosh was working himself back from the injuru. Wasn't there one game early on when Bargs was the big man down the stretch while Bosh was sat on the bench? It's the responsibility of the coaching staff to coordinate HOW to make Bosh and Bargs compliment one another. It's not happening by one sitting and watching the other on the court. Until there is a true demonstration that these two guys can't compliment beach other on the court, I won't give up on Bargs. It's possible that Bargs will be okay, but just doesn't fit our team and compliment our franchise big. But, do we have enough evidence of this yet? Winning games is a short-term fix and won't get us beyond mediocrity if bargs isn't developed (either to play alongside Bosh or as trade bait for a quality player who can). I do see the effort in Bargs, but we're mistaking his confusion and lack of confidence with someone doesn't care. It's not about coddling him. It's about giving him an opportunity to succeed. Going back to the bench will only destroy what's left of his psyche. He's already proved he can be a second stringer as a rookie. We need a starter from him.

[Yosemite Dan]

-= original quote snipped =-




- Carlos Delfino has taken more shots than Bargnani this year. This is a player who barely averaged 4 PPG in his first 3 seasons and never shot a good percentage.

- Jamario Moon has taken 17 less shots than Andrea in the same amount of games.


Andrea was drafted 1st overall to be a scorer. Sam doesn't think his offense is important right now and that's a huge mistake. As a result he's created a much bigger problem because he now has a player who has nothing to build on.

If Bargnani is scoring 12-14 PPG consisently and is confident it's not going to go away it's a lot easier to develop those other skills and add to his game.

Instead Sam has opted to break him down completely in order to build him back up in his own image. The problem with this is that Sam doesn't have a f'n clue how to do it... and now we're seeing the results of that.

Sam all of a sudden has no clue about Bargs but seemed to do a pretty fair job with Bosh's and Jose's development. One a big man and the other a foreigner new to the country so they both share traits with Bargs. If you retort that Bargs is suffering more because he's not as mentally strong as those 2 then you readily admit that he never had a chance to amount to much in the first place as any player's strongest trait is located between the ears.

[I-AM-A-BEAST]

-= original quote snipped =-




- Carlos Delfino has taken more shots than Bargnani this year. This is a player who barely averaged 4 PPG in his first 3 seasons and never shot a good percentage.

- Jamario Moon has taken 17 less shots than Andrea in the same amount of games.


Andrea was drafted 1st overall to be a scorer. Sam doesn't think his offense is important right now and that's a huge mistake. As a result he's created a much bigger problem because he now has a player who has nothing to build on.

If Bargnani is scoring 12-14 PPG consisently and is confident it's not going to go away it's a lot easier to develop those other skills and add to his game.

Instead Sam has opted to break him down completely in order to build him back up in his own image. The problem with this is that Sam doesn't have a f'n clue how to do it... and now we're seeing the results of that.

The reason those guys are receiving just as much if not more scoring opportunities as Bargs is because they deserve as much. Both are much more efficient than Bargs and make better use of their scoring chances. It's not rocket science. Bargs touches and shots will increase when he actually starts making the ones he's getting. You don't win games by giving shots to someone whos hoots 37% from the field. That's how this league works. Pinning this on Sam is a joke IMO.

Sam doesn't think his offense is important because frankly, IT'S NOT. He is one of the most inefficient scores in the league, is right at the top of our team in terms of shots per 40 or shots per minute, has one of the lowest assist rates of any big in the league and yet your blaming Sam and his teammates for ignoring him offensively?

I find that silly.

[dagger]

The issue may not be about the coach's style with individuals, but his ability to merge the talent.

Since the beginning of the year I've read that at different times, Bosh and Bargnani supposedly take up each other's space, or that AP couldn't find his rhythm if Bargnani was taking a lot of shots. Throughout Sam's tenure I have argued that our offence is overly simplistic, consisting of pick and roll, pass around the horn for a three, or improvised one on one, with the PG hunting around for someone to get behind a screen for an open look.

If players rolls aren't defined, except for Bosh, then that is a systemic weakness. We've reduced Bargnani to the roll of screen setter on offence, which he does 2-3 times per set. If he's a scorer, plays should be run for him. On Saturday, he hits his first shot, and doesn't get another shot until the second half, when he gets one more. If all we want is a screen setter, we should start Humphries, only tell him he can only get putbacks on offence. But if Bargnani's talents on offence are to be used, he has to have a more meaningful role than screen-setting. He shouldn't diminish Bosh or AP or the point guards that much, but he should have a couple of set plays run for him that also help keep defences spread for Bosh and Co. I've seen him come around screens for shots, drive baseline for dunks, set up mid-range, and face up in the post for short jumpers. The team should have him specialize in a couple of plays that would become his bread and butter - besides three pointers. Then go to those plays a couple of times each half. Then build from there.

[ScorKreaDagger]

The issue may not be about the coach's style with individuals, but his ability to merge the talent.

Since the beginning of the year I've read that at different times, Bosh and Bargnani supposedly take up each other's space, or that AP couldn't find his rhythm if Bargnani was taking a lot of shots. Throughout Sam's tenure I have argued that our offence is overly simplistic, consisting of pick and roll, pass around the horn for a three, or improvised one on one, with the PG hunting around for someone to get behind a screen for an open look.

If players rolls aren't defined, except for Bosh, then that is a systemic weakness. We've reduced Bargnani to the roll of screen setter on offence, which he does 2-3 times per set. If he's a scorer, plays should be run for him. On Saturday, he hits his first shot, and doesn't get another shot until the second half, when he gets one more. If all we want is a screen setter, we should start Humphries, only tell him he can only get putbacks on offence. But if Bargnani's talents on offence are to be used, he has to have a more meaningful role than screen-setting. He shouldn't diminish Bosh or AP or the point guards that much, but he should have a couple of set plays run for him that also help keep defences spread for Bosh and Co. I've seen him come around screens for shots, drive baseline for dunks, set up mid-range, and face up in the post for short jumpers. The team should have him specialize in a couple of plays that would become his bread and butter - besides three pointers. Then go to those plays a couple of times each half. Then build from there.

I agree totally with your assessment. Too many posters on here diminish the coaching staff's role in integrating (or lack thereof) Bargs into the starting five. It's as if Bargs and Bargs alone determines how he'll play. Bargs isn't a one on one player that can just create for himself. It's like Bargs goes down the court and instead of looking for his shots and where he needs to be, he first looks where Bosh is and then reacts from there. Some would argue that Bargs doesn't deserve any plays run for him, but if he's your prized number one pick, then you HAVE TO design a better system that works with all the players on the court. I do think Bargs misses TJ somewhat who created some easier threes in rhythmn from drive and kicks and also in finding him on the break.

[rdtx2005]

I do think Bargs misses TJ somewhat who created some easier threes in rhythmn from drive and kicks and also in finding him on the break.

bargs miss TJ Ford?.. I though the consensus of the board was that TJ doesn't pass the ball to Bargnani!

[Mr.Raptorsingh]

^And I bet T.J. Ford will continue to not pass him the ball when he returns.

[A_wildstabatanything]

-= original quote snipped =-



Sam all of a sudden has no clue about Bargs but seemed to do a pretty fair job with Bosh's and Jose's development. One a big man and the other a foreigner new to the country so they both share traits with Bargs. If you retort that Bargs is suffering more because he's not as mentally strong as those 2 then you readily admit that he never had a chance to amount to much in the first place as any player's strongest trait is located between the ears.

- Jose wasn't having much success under Sam until he came back from winning a gold with Spain. Mitchell deserves a lot of credit but most of Calderon's game was developed overseas.

- Sam wasn't Bosh's first coach. It was KO who threw him into the fire and played him big minutes from the very beginning. I think you've got to give him some credit because there's no way Bosh would have been able to step up like he did when VC left without that previous experience.



"Sam doesn't think his offense is important because frankly, IT'S NOT."

Then I don't see how he can be on the same page as Colangelo. If Sam wasn't on board with the pick then he shouldn't have been allowed to go into the '06 season as head coach.

In those first 2 years the team got worse, he had heated altercations with several different players, had no control over certain personalities, and the team was routinely embarrassed on the court (81?).

I really don't understand why some people are so quick to forget the past and trust Sam's judgement in this area.