colangelo is officially a genius (of a weird sort)

[bill russell]

Supersub noted this item in the daily papers but it deserves a thread considering that it's about our GM. The eggheads at Wages of Wins (these guys are seriously smart) review Colangelo's record over the last couple of years and decide that he's succeeding in a highly unusual manner. Conventional wisdom in the NBA is that you do it through the draft or free agency. Colangelo has been (at best) mediocre on those two fronts. He is generating wins through his uncanny ability to find talent hiding under rocks.

Here's the core of the Wages of Wins argument. The top five Raptors in terms of statistically measurable contributions to wins are Jose Calderon, Chris Bosh, Carlos Delfino, Anthony Parker, and Jamario Moon.

The moderators don't seem to accept quotation marks as a legitimate form of punctuation so I'll paraphrase: Aside from the productive Bosh who was acquired in the 2003 draft, the other four guys were nobodies. Calderon and Moon were never drafted. Parker was drafted but languished in Israel and Italy before Colangelo picked him up in 2006. Delfino was a Pistons role player, acquired for two second round choices.

Of the Raptor's "23.3 Wins Produced" at this point in the season, 18.6 have been produced by the four guys other than Bosh. These guys come cheap by NBA standards -- all four in total are paid about the same as Rasho.

This flies in the face of conventional NBA wisdom. Losing GMs complain that they've been unlucky in the draft or that they don't have room under the cap to sign decent players. Colangelo puts the lie to these excuses. He's got his team in fourth place in the East with little help from the draft and without breaking the bank.

[magani]

However, BC inherited Jose from the babcock era. He didn't unearth moon at all. Jom Kelly the scout did and sam had the foresight to give him a starting spot when no one (including BC could have predicted that). I'll give him full credit for Delfino and partial for Parker )since I'm sure Maurizio's connections helped with that. I love BC, but he's been a little too overhyped in my book. It's the TJ/Bargs situations that will determine how well we do long-term or if we'll be forced to unearth guys who were never drafted and sat at the end of benches and throw them in as starters. Those four are nice complimentary players, but are masking the hurt to our core that exists.

[supersub15]

However, BC inherited Jose from the babcock era. He didn't unearth moon at all. Jom Kelly the scout did and sam had the foresight to give him a starting spot when no one (including BC could have predicted that). I'll give him full credit for Delfino and partial for Parker )since I'm sure Maurizio's connections helped with that. I love BC, but he's been a little too overhyped in my book. It's the TJ/Bargs situations that will determine how well we do long-term or if we'll be forced to unearth guys who were never drafted and sat at the end of benches and throw them in as starters. Those four are nice complimentary players, but are masking the hurt to our core that exists.

When a company does well, the CEO gets the credit.

[The Duke]

How he handles the PG situation will be a true test to his potential geniousity lol

[bill russell]

However, BC inherited Jose from the babcock era. He didn't unearth moon at all. Jom Kelly the scout did and sam had the foresight to give him a starting spot when no one (including BC could have predicted that). I'll give him full credit for Delfino and partial for Parker )since I'm sure Maurizio's connections helped with that. I love BC, but he's been a little too overhyped in my book. It's the TJ/Bargs situations that will determine how well we do long-term or if we'll be forced to unearth guys who were never drafted and sat at the end of benches and throw them in as starters. Those four are nice complimentary players, but are masking the hurt to our core that exists.

you've got to treat GMs like presidents or prime ministers. it's not their fault when the economy goes sour, and it's not really to their credit when times are booming, but they're at the helm so they get the blame or the applause no matter what. BC is paid to take responsibility for the team's moves. He listened to Jim Kelly, kept Jose, and hired Maurizio. He gets credit for that.
I would think you'd have a stronger argument in attacking the BC legend by pointing out that he traded Rasho, who's riding our pine, to San Antonio for Bonner who's got a long career ahead of him as a solid backup, and possibly a starter. He also traded Charlie V for TJ, and TJ has been plagued with injuries, and might never be the same after his last one. There's bad luck in that but everyone knew at the time that TJ was a risk and BC decided to take the risk and he may now be paying for it.

The guys at Wages of Wins talked of drafts and free agency as the main ways to build teams. They say BC has found a third way by plucking talent out of thin air (like Moon). The real third way is old-fashioned trades and on that front BC has a mixed record in Toronto. (Delfino is certainly to his credit).

[Axl]

I always have felt that BC had these players (and others of this type) on his radar, especially parker (and garbo even though he's not this list). Then, like in phoenix, his strategy is to match styles, strengths and personalities of players.

He does take risks though, but the only real under-a-rock find was jamario. The rest of the guys were about as proven of performers as non-nba players can be. And jose wasn't a bc pick either way.

[bill russell]

I always have felt that BC had these players (and others of this type) on his radar, especially parker (and garbo even though he's not this list). Then, like in phoenix, his strategy is to match styles, strengths and personalities of players.

He does take risks though, but the only real under-a-rock find was jamario. The rest of the guys were about as proven of performers as non-nba players can be. And jose wasn't a bc pick either way.

great point about garbo. we tend to forget that one but he might have been the best move of all. in fact, if you look at the last season as a turning point in the franchise's history, it was a crucial move.

[hksazn]

-= original quote snipped =-


When a company does well, the CEO gets the credit.

Kind of unfair to take all the credit, when half the job was done Babcock and Embry.

He was handed a silver platter with a crap load of cap space and all major expiring contracts off the books.

mediocre at best.

[~ TeRRoR SquaD ~]

HE TRADED RAFAEL FREAKING ARAUJO FOR K-HUMP.

[bill russell]

HE TRADED RAFAEL FREAKING ARAUJO FOR K-HUMP.

yeah, not a career maker but a very good move

[TheDoctor]

bill russell - You need attribution for the direct quote from the article, like ss has in the daily papers thread. Please fix it, thanks.

[Korr]

HE TRADED RAFAEL FREAKING ARAUJO FOR K-HUMP.

[Michael Bradley]

I've said before, Colangelo is a top tier calibre GM, but he inherited a pretty darn good situation. He had the #1 pick in the draft, a star big (Bosh), a significant amount of cap space, expiring contracts, and a cheap expendable asset at its highest value (Villanueva). So yes, Colangelo should get praised for the quick turnaround, as he's done a lot of good on and off the court for the franchise, but I don't think he's turned water into wine like many here seem to believe. Fact is, the two best players on the court this year have been Grunwald and Babcock finds (Bosh and Calderon), so let's not pretend BC did everything.

Now if he adds one more star to go with Bosh, then we're talking.

[magani]

[quote="bill russell"]-= original quote snipped =-



you've got to treat GMs like presidents or prime ministers. it's not their fault when the economy goes sour, and it's not really to their credit when times are booming, but they're at the helm so they get the blame or the applause no matter what. BC is paid to take responsibility for the team's moves. He listened to Jim Kelly, kept Jose, and hired Maurizio. He gets credit for that.
I would think you'd have a stronger argument in attacking the BC legend by pointing out that he traded Rasho, who's riding our pine, to San Antonio for Bonner who's got a long career ahead of him as a solid backup, and possibly a starter. He also traded Charlie V for TJ, and TJ has been plagued with injuries, and might never be the same after his last one. There's bad luck in that but everyone knew at the time that TJ was a risk and BC decided to take the risk and he may now be paying for it.

The guys at Wages of Wins talked of drafts and free agency as the main ways to build teams. They say BC has found a third way by plucking talent out of thin air (like Moon). The real third way is old-fashioned trades and on that front BC has a mixed record in Toronto. (Delfino is certainly to his credit).[/quote]

I've been a BC supporter without questioning a thing until recently. I see a few chinks in the armor building. I bolded the part that I found most interesting. How many championships has this third way of building a team produced? I'll argue it can make a team competetive very quickly, but not much else unless your core is strong. I didn't argue about Rasho or TJ because that didn't fit your profile of unearthing players. I'm just trying to bring some balance back to the BC is God discusions that existed. His next few moves are huge. He can't keep dilli-dallying with these types of player pickups. He'll have to get down and dirty and produce a blockbuster or two (trade/draft) to really take us to the next level.

[Axl]

-= original quote snipped =-



great point about garbo. we tend to forget that one but he might have been the best move of all. in fact, if you look at the last season as a turning point in the franchise's history, it was a crucial move.

Yeah, it's hard to say for sure, but I think if we had him at 100% this year, we'd have won a few more of the close ones, like seattle, philly, maybe portland, where we played ok, but just came unglued for a few stretches.

Hard to see him cutting too too much into moon's minutes though. Not sure who would sit for him this year.

[davkad]

[quote="Michael Bradley"][/quote]

I would disagree and say that he came to quite a BAD situation. I was shocked that Colangelo (or any other GM) would leave a very successful thriving situation to come to try and rebuild our train wreck.
He had Bosh, but nobody knew whether or not the kid was really a star, a pretender, or just a born loser - it was only after Colangelo came that Bosh really became assertive and kept the raps in games or won them. Before the managerial move the raptors were one of the worst teams in the league for sure.
He also came in with no point guard, or point guard prospects (except for Calderon, who nobody factored in as a true starter or even quality backup). Mike James was forcing his hand to be re-signed for far more than he was worth, but he was a selfish player and a tweener guard. It was a very tough decision, and luckily BC opted against "building on what we have", and decided to completely remodel.
Villanueva was great to have as an ASSET, but most would have thought common sense tells you to KEEP what promising your players you have whne you are rebuilding - Villanueva is struggling badly in Milwuakee, and i dont think he would have developed the way all Raptors fans predicted - Charile V only became an asset when you brought in the GM who was willing to trade him - like Mike James, it could have been another mediocre/"good" player the raps would have been locked into long-term, but not necessarily a difference maker that would have taken the raptors out of the bottom of the league.
The Jalen trade pulled by Embry was no doubt a huge move in making the situation much more flexible and comfortable, but to say he moved into a good situation is hindsight - at the time, nobody thought the team could be fixed in a year... but somehow BC made it happen.

[deknow]

-= original quote snipped =-



I would disagree and say that he came to quite a BAD situation. I was shocked that Colangelo (or any other GM) would leave a very successful thriving situation to come to try and rebuild our train wreck.
He had Bosh, but nobody knew whether or not the kid was really a star, a pretender, or just a born loser - it was only after Colangelo came that Bosh really became assertive and kept the raps in games or won them. Before the managerial move the raptors were one of the worst teams in the league for sure.
He also came in with no point guard, or point guard prospects (except for Calderon, who nobody factored in as a true starter or even quality backup). Mike James was forcing his hand to be re-signed for far more than he was worth, but he was a selfish player and a tweener guard. It was a very tough decision, and luckily BC opted against "building on what we have", and decided to completely remodel.
Villanueva was great to have as an ASSET, but most would have thought common sense tells you to KEEP what promising your players you have whne you are rebuilding - Villanueva is struggling badly in Milwuakee, and i dont think he would have developed the way all Raptors fans predicted - Charile V only became an asset when you brought in the GM who was willing to trade him - like Mike James, it could have been another mediocre/"good" player the raps would have been locked into long-term, but not necessarily a difference maker that would have taken the raptors out of the bottom of the league.
The Jalen trade pulled by Embry was no doubt a huge move in making the situation much more flexible and comfortable, but to say he moved into a good situation is hindsight - at the time, nobody thought the team could be fixed in a year... but somehow BC made it happen.

Its about money and job security. He is the President and GM he calls the shots.

[shizzle]

However, BC inherited Jose from the babcock era. He didn't unearth moon at all. Jom Kelly the scout did and sam had the foresight to give him a starting spot when no one (including BC could have predicted that). I'll give him full credit for Delfino and partial for Parker )since I'm sure Maurizio's connections helped with that. I love BC, but he's been a little too overhyped in my book. It's the TJ/Bargs situations that will determine how well we do long-term or if we'll be forced to unearth guys who were never drafted and sat at the end of benches and throw them in as starters. Those four are nice complimentary players, but are masking the hurt to our core that exists.

This is a quote from the worst type of employee you can ever have... The guy who sits in the mailroom and thinks the company can't run without them. Then when they get fired for having a bad attitude the come back with a sawed off shot gun to prove their point... How is that working for you so far buddy!

That report and Colangelos record speak for themselves.

[davkad]

-= original quote snipped =-



This is a quote from the worst type of employee you can ever have... The guy who sits in the mailroom and thinks the company can't run without them. Then when they get fired for having a bad attitude the come back with a sawed off shot gun to prove their point... How is that working for you so far buddy!

That report and Colangelos record speak for themselves.

lol! well said. pwnage.

I'm sorry for anyone who wants to give Jim Kelly credit for Moon... isn't that the same scout who recommended Araujo?? How come Babcock rightfully gets blamed for that one, but BC can't get the kudos for his moves?

[Platapie]

BC is a product of his own success. Now the team is expected to be in the 2nd round of the playoffs or it's a bust. A loss against a sub-par team = armageddon, etc.

Few seem to recall that, 2 years ago, this team was going nowhere.