*QP* - Official Andrea Bargnani Thread - Jan '08

[ranger001]

I've had an idea for a while which I'm going to start. The *QP* means the first page or so is for quality posts. Redundant ideas will be deleted without notification. After a few pages go wild with your posts.

So this thread is for viewpoints on Andrea Bargnani for those people that can write articulately. After a month or so we can start a new thread if his play changes. I am going to lock all the other Bargnani threads because a lot of us are tired of the same viewpoints posted over and over again.

[theonlyeastcoastrapsfan]

Is that not going too far, who decides what's articulate enough? and why would you delete ideas if they are not against the TOS?

Bit of a slippery slope you're embarking on isn't it?

[ranger001]

As I said the quality posts are only for the first page or so. However to avoid the appearance of doing something totally radical another thread can be the dumping ground for random thoughts and unarticulate posts. Since we already have one started that one can be used:-
Other Andrea Thread

This is an experiment, I believe a lot of posters here can state their viewpoints quite well so we'll see what happens.

My summary:-

There is a ton of expectations on Andrea Bargnani because he was picked #1 overall in the 2006 NBA draft. Bargnani has shown that he can shoot the ball well with range all the way to the 3 pt line and past it. He showed flashes of promise last year but his scoring and minutes are down this year, teams are giving him less room on the perimeter, daring him to put the ball on the floor and his scoring has suffered as a result. He seems hesitant on the perimeter at times, not sure whether he should shoot or drive to the hoop as his coaches are telling him to.

Sam Mitchell has said that he is trying to change Bargnani's game so that he can play the Center position. He is teaching him how to rebound and how to score inside, a difficult matter for someone who has relied on his outside shot up to now and his rebounding from game to game varies from being mediocre at best to terrible usually.

Whether Mitchell can succeed in changing Bargnani depends on Bargnani. Some raptor fan are willing to be more patient and wait for his development while others already consider his #1 pick to be a poor decision given that players picked lower are playing better than Bargnani right now. Personally I feel he needs another year or two before we can truly say how good Bargnani will be. I am willing to be patient and not give up on the young man just yet.

Post your opinions on Bargnani below.

[Not Just a Ballboy]

I wanted to post a similar topic to this about Bargs downfall. If anybody actually is paying attention to how he plays from this year compared to the beginning and last year would know the reason he's playing poorly is because of adjustment to having to play "Sam's way."

I am not one of those Sam haters who complain every game after a loss because of his poor coaching. But one thing I dislike is that he doesn't know how to hide the weakness of his players with their strengths.

Didn't Sam complain after the first few games about how Bargnani isn't doing what he's suppose to be doing even though he was having that great start?

Prototype posted this on Bargnani's new position thread which has been locked so I'll post it here. Maybe it's making excuses, but why does no one bring this up? The kid is being asked to change the way he plays. We all agree that he is playing terribly, but why no spin?

[kmatrixg]

I am at a loss for Bargnani. I honestly think this season is done for him. I do, however, believe he still has the skill to be a great player, it's just...some people have bad years. Not to mention, he is still learning the English language, on top of learning to play Center AND still learning how to play in the NBA. At his age, I don't think going back and forth from the NBA style, to a Euro league style is good for his development. If I were BC, I would restrict him from going to Italy for at least 3 years, and have him play with the Raptors, and Raptor trainers solely for that time.

Plus, Italy has their main man Fu-cka. haha. I love seeing that name, and hearing Hubie Brown say it....he wanted to say "That" so bad.

[Shaazzam]

Prototype posted this on Bargnani's new position thread which has been locked so I'll post it here. Maybe it's making excuses, but why does no one bring this up? The kid is being asked to change the way he plays. We all agree that he is playing terribly, but why no spin?

Because for him to be a heavy minute, impact guy, he needs to improve some areas of his game. Namely defence and rebounding.

Or he will just be a liability if he isn't draining shats.

[kmatrixg]

-= original quote snipped =-



Because for him to be a heavy minute, impact guy, he needs to improve some areas of his game. Namely defence and rebounding.

Or he will just be a liability if he isn't draining shats.

I think his man to man defense is fine. In fact, his lateral quickness is his huge strength. He does a great job defending guys like Dirk, Ilgauskas and Yao..

[Not Just a Ballboy]

-= original quote snipped =-



Because for him to be a heavy minute, impact guy, he needs to improve some areas of his game. Namely defence and rebounding.

Or he will just be a liability if he isn't draining shats.

I agree, but why aren't we hearing this story from the team or the media?

[KG1585]

Prototype posted this on Bargnani's new position thread which has been locked so I'll post it here. Maybe it's making excuses, but why does no one bring this up? The kid is being asked to change the way he plays. We all agree that he is playing terribly, but why no spin?

I think it is because, if he wants to be a superstar in the league, he has to adjust the way he plays. He will be just a three point shooter, unless he learns how to take smaller guys in the post, unless he learns how to rebound and learn help defending, he'll be just one of those guys that will get spot minutes because, he is a three point shooter.

[inrapscity]

I like the idea but Andrea has already been discussed too much.

Personally, it's ok if Andrea struggles on offense but you gotta rebound. His defense isn't bad if he doesn't commit quick and stupid fouls.

[Shaazzam]

I agree, but why aren't we hearing this story from the team or the media?

Sorry, not sure what you mean. Can you please expand?

[bargs]

in my hometown dialect this thread could be named: ASSAFA' DIO!

which means : thanks god!!...finally a good thread

[cdel00]

At the start of the year Bargs hit a BIG game winner. When interviewed about the shot he said "When they pass me the ball I shoot it." I think Bargs slump has come because he stopped doing that.

He's trying to do too much now and has moved away from his game and is uncomfortable with his shot accuracy.

For Bargs to regain his effectiveness he needs to remember what made him a first overall choice - his shot. Get back to the deadly sniper mentality what ever it takes, long hours in the gym shooting hundreds of threes a night until he's comfortable once again.

Sam has Humps on a 2 dribble limit. I'd like to see Bargs either shoot or pass within the first second of him receiving a pass. No more pump fakes, no more dribble drives, just shoot the friggen ball. When his shot starts falling back at his normal percentages then he can start adding the drive back to his game.

I think AP needs to step up and join Bargs in the gym and provide the right encouragement and leadership to help Bargs return to form.

[Aimless Outlook]

This is just a suggestion, and please delete it afterwards.

Sticky and Lock this thread for now.

Only copy the type of posts you're looking for in here so you won't have to spend your time deleting posts. Move whole threads into the other Andrea thread and allow anyone to still post in there.

However, on here, create a link back to the original post in the other Andrea thread so that others can respond in there. This will then just be treated as a summary thread with links back to the back and forth.

edit: Good suggestion. I'll think about doing that, although for now I kind of want to just delete posts.

[Shaazzam]

I agree perhaps with a thread for unique or new viewpoints or analysis, but screening for "articulateness" may be problematic, especially with many foreign posters and posters who have points to offer, but are not the best writers. Just my two cents.

Let's look at this in the spirit of the message, as opposed to ranger's exact language.

Bring something new to the table, whether it be new insight or a new development. If, say, one of our foreign posters finds out that AB's got something going on back home that affects his development, they'll get to skate on some language limitations.

But we all know what's up with AB right now, and almost all points being offered are exceptionally redundant. It's simply clutter.

[kingr]

The reason I'm so critical of Andrea is because...

- He went number 1 overall.
- Everyone on this board, to the media was hyping him up CRAZY
- Chuck Swirsky comparing aspects of his game to Larry Bird... (his first or 2nd game of the season last year )
- One of the assistants or w/e, saying he'll be better than Bosh next year or something.
-I never wanted him drafted. To be honest, I never wanted Roy either- I wanted Gay, or aldridge.


Now, since I'm a raptors fan, I have to try to hope he does well. It really hurts seeing all the other players having somewhat of an impact on their team and Andrea has 0 impact on games right now. Down the stretch, Andrea is on the bench, it's like he's useless right now.

For all the people hyping Andrea like crazy... And BC saying give him 5 years, cause he has the best upside.... How much better can Andrea play - than Roy is playing right now in his second season?

A lot of people saying, give Andrea 20 shots per game... WHY? what has he done to warrant this many shots? I get mad when kris shoots the rock, although he brings so much to the table when it comes to toughness and rebounding. Andrea does none of these things, and now people want to give him this many shots a game, taking shots away from the likes of bosh, parker, Hose...

Forget what I was going to talk about next, so I'll just submit the post.

[cdel00]

I back Ranger on the concept of this thread. Its hard to follow some of the other threads that get lengthy from 1 line posts that don't really add to the discussion. I like the concept of a singe thread that encapsulates quality posts on a single topic. As for quality I refer to sound logic, creative ideas and decent flow. Spelling and grammar mistakes should not take away from a post being quality when the logic ideas and flow are quality. (It is a Basketball forum not an English class one )

If a quality post is in another thread with regards to Bargs quote it in this one.

We know members of the Raps read the board and if we can make it easy for them to find the good ideas it may return dividends in terms of wins
Now can we as a community stop discussing the merits of this thread and put our brains together to see if we help Il Mago out of his funk.

[kmatrixg]

For people to say they wanted Brandan Roy or Rudy Gay with the 1st pick, must not know much about basketball. Go back about 10-15 years in history and tell me how many guards or forwards were selected 1st overall, with the excuse of the King. I think the answer is somewhere around 0.

Teams don't take guards with 1st overall pick. A true talented big man is so hard to come by, you CANNOT pass it up. Aldridge had serious heart issues around draft time. Tyrus Thomas had the issue of being lazy - which has turned out to be correct. Andrea was the BEST big man option at the TIME OF THE DRAFT. He had skills, he was healthy, and he wanted to win. For those to say, we should have picked Gay with the 1st overall, need to do some homework.

Now, if we had the option of trading down in the draft, I don't even think BC would have been able to do it, because with the talent level in that draft (which was all players pretty much being on the same level) teams that had a 1-10 draft pick figured they could get a guy of the same calibre no matter what selection they had, so why trade a player, AND their pick, so get someone they could snag at the 7 or 8 spot.

I still firmly believe the Andrea selection was the best choice for the Raptors. But things happen, and things change, but now, since he isn't playing well, everyone looks back and says, oh we should have done this, or that. Just shut up.

[1982]

so we've all seen the hoffa resemblances.

we've also seen the offensive game, which contrary to what most posters seem to remember is a lot more varied than the three pointer. then there was the decent man to man game which he held up against good players, and also there was blocking his own man's shots.

but then again right now it seems to be the hoffa resemblances. the type of fouls, the offensive role that he's been given, the hesitation and timidity to at times even move with ease let alone play. there has been a lot of reasons given for his struggles and inabilities etc... but still there is the hoffa resemblance. some of which are also committed by joey graham.

i'm unwilling to point the finger at the coaching staff since that would mean they are only able to develop certain players and turn the rest into hoffa resemblances. although i am worried that the symptoms of hoffa, once he was told to concentrate on the things he couldn't do and leave the things he could do for later, is seen in two other rookies of ours(players that were rookies under sam). anyone else feel this way?

[bk06ns]

^^ I agree with that, with the exception of A.I. going first, teams usually draft the best big at the time of the draft. Last year, Bargnani was the most intruiging bigman prospect, so BC took a flyer on him. With his frame, he probably thought he would be able to develop into a true 5, which would solidify the frontcourt of the Raps for years. Even though it might not turn out to be the right choice, at the time of the draft he was probably the best choice for the Raptors.